Q: Precision shots/strikes and rending/breaching?

[Brofist]

Got an interesting one for y'all today. Its the interaction between wound pools, precision shots/strikes, and rending/breaching.

 

Under the rules for wound allocation: "If several pools of wounds need to be allocated, then the player who's unit receives the attacks decides the order in which they are allocated."

 

Under the rules for wound pools (please ignore the highlights, not mine): 'Wounds caused by special rules, such as rending, are split into separate wound pools'

 

Say you cast deviation on some plasma guns. You fire at a unit and get 3 precision shot breaches along with 8 regular wounds. Say you allocate those 3 precision shots to a Sergent. Since there are 2 wound pools, is it RAW that the player with the Sergent picks the order they resolve them? Does this mean they could resolve those 8 regular wounds first, tank them on the same Sergent, and then resolve the precision shots which are breaches allocated to the Sergent?

[Cactus]

It looks that way to me.

[LameBeard]

What if the sergeant dies to the first pool - are the precision shots wasted?

[Brofist]

I might have an answer to my own question, though I'm honestly still unsure. Wound allocation happens after wound pools are created. Under the special rule for precision shots:

 

"Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of the attacking player's choice in the target unit, as long as the target model is in range and line of sight of the attacking model, rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation."

My hangup is that I'm still not clear on the sequence of events and what overrides what, if anything, RAW.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Brofist said:

I might have an answer to my own question, though I'm honestly still unsure. Wound allocation happens after wound pools are created. Under the special rule for precision shots:

 

"Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of the attacking player's choice in the target unit, as long as the target model is in range and line of sight of the attacking model, rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation."

My hangup is that I'm still not clear on the sequence of events and what overrides what, if anything, RAW.

 

The wound allocation rules are written without any clear "X takes primarch over Y". The way precision shots gives agency to the attacking player makes it seem like it should take primacy over other forms allocation. I *think* that "the normal rules for wound allocation" includes the multiple wound pools and subsequent wound allocation, as well as character wound allocation. But the game rules are far from helpful in figuring out an order of operations. 

[bushman101]

10 hours ago, LameBeard said:

What if the sergeant dies to the first pool - are the precision shots wasted?

I don't think so.

P172 under Take Save and Remove Casualties basically says 'allocate a wound, take a save, if the model dies and there are still wounds to allocate, chose another model'

[The Unseen]

I think the line "rather than following the normal rules for wound allocation" is the key here. The precision shots are resolved separately, allocated by the attacking player rather than following the normal rules. The only question becomes one of timing, and generally active player determines the order of stuff right? If only because doing it the other way would be very strange; feels like you should pull the wounds that don't follow the normal rules out and resolve them, then continue with the normal process, rather than wait for the exceptions to the end. And letting the precision shots go off first both makes the most mechanical sense, and doesn't neuter the already somewhat difficult rule into the ground.

[Xenith]

This is particularly important for Seekers, who have both precision shots and breaching. 

 

My interpretation is that you split the wound pools into precise breaching, precise normal, imprecise breaching and imprecise normal, then the opponent picks a wound pool to start with, then if it's a precise pool, you pick the model, if it's imprecise, they allocate. 

 

The opponent does best by allocating imprecise normal to their serge to tank as many as possible, however when that pool is empty, the next pool goes into a new model. You don't pick a model until the opponent chooses to resolve that wound pool, so the shots are not lost. 

[LameBeard]

Maybe I won’t build those seekers then - seems like a lot of fuss to resolve one round of shooting.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

56 minutes ago, LameBeard said:

Maybe I won’t build those seekers then - seems like a lot of fuss to resolve one round of shooting.

Build them. They are one of the best units in the game, and if you are worried about a sergeant tanks 2 hits of AP4 when you roll 3s and the rest are AP2 from breaching it washes out. The real problem comes when you are strictly trying to kill Apothecaries first, which is primarily what you want to do before the sergeant. 

 

I would also point out snipers help alleviate the problem some by being able to allocate all wound pools to whatever model you want.

[LameBeard]

Yeah I wanted snipers but Anvil no longer have the sniper rifle I like in the right scale.  

Edited January 13, 2023 by LameBeard
Sense

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, LameBeard said:

Yeah I wanted snipers but Anvil no longer have the sniper rifle I like in the right scale.  

Both the scout sniper and the new phobos sniper make great conversion material!

[Brofist]

I guess to summarize, the order of operations isn't clear. Because of this, there doesn't really seem to be an explicit answer. If your army is taking advantage of these rules interactions, I would talk to your opponent before the game. I would suspect most people will give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker, but of course your mileage may vary.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

2 hours ago, Brofist said:

I guess to summarize, the order of operations isn't clear. Because of this, there doesn't really seem to be an explicit answer. If your army is taking advantage of these rules interactions, I would talk to your opponent before the game. I would suspect most people will give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker, but of course your mileage may vary.

I'll find out in 2 weeks. I'll report back of it is an issue.

[Xenith]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:52 PM, Brofist said:

I guess to summarize, the order of operations isn't clear.

 

I'd agree in that it's perhaps not immediately obvious, however when you sit down and read through the shooting and wound allocation rules, I feel that there is only one way that it can be, and that way causes no lost wounds-saves due to removal of a target character. 

 

You don't declare what model each successful wound will be allocated to, until your opponent chooses that wound pool to make saves for. The rules as they are written seem to suggest that you 'call' each sniper shot as you roll the dice, however the rules actually dont say this - models are chosen later. 

 

It works exactly the same way with nemesis bolter units - your 6 man recon unit gets 4 hits than convert to 2 rends, a normal wound and a fail to wound. Your opponent chooses to resolve the non-rending wound pool first, however as they are sniper weapons, you get to choose what models to allocate to, upon which you choose the sergeant. If the sergeant dies, then your opponent chooses the next wound pool, the rending wounds, which you allocate one of each to the augury and vexilla. If the sergeant didnt die, you'd instead allocate a rend to the serge and scanner/vexilla.

 

Nothing in the rules (as far as I've read) says that wounds from precision shots are allocated before any wound pools are chosen by the defender, yet rolled afterwards.