'Nemesis' designation

[apologist]

A topic for musing on the Nemesis designation.

 

In first edition, the various Warlords had different types – Eclipse, Nightgaunt etc. – which determined its battlefield role. This was presumably to account for the fact that GW couldn't afford to produce distinct models for each one. Nemesis was one of these, and it designated a Warlord with four big guns. 

 

In the modern game, the Nemesis designation (seen in relation to the Warbringer class) implies that it's mounting a gun that's a 'weight-class' larger than usually seen on the chassis.

 

This implies there's a non-Nemesis Warbringer; a more obvious midway Battle Titan between the standard Reaver and standard Warlord. I'd be interested to hear what you think that'd look like. Two Reaver-arm class weapons on top? Just one? How would it differ otherwise?

 

Secondly, what do you think a modern Warlord Nemesis would look like? Would it mount two Warlord-arm weight weapons on the carapace (e.g. two Belicosa Volcano cannons), or just one? Something else? Perhaps even a Warmaster-class weapon?

 

[Gillyfish]

It's an interesting question. I do remember seeing someone who created a 'standard' Warbringer class titan with non-Nemesis style weaponry, so four Reaver class ranged weapons (the assumption was that Warbringers were a ranged class titan only). It was a cool idea and one I would actually like to see GW embrace. I don't think every class of Titan would necessarily have a Nemesis variant as presumably it might depend upon reactor capacity. The Warhound already has its effective Nemesis variant, but that still only has two weapon systems to allow for the high grade weapon system.

 

I imagine a Nemesis Warlord could either have a single Warmaster class weapon on the carapace in addition to the arms or a Warlord arm class on the roof (single?). The issue with the design is that the Warlord's main firepower is in the arms rather than the roof, so it doesn't necessarily fit that well.

[Mandragola]

Check out Lord Borak’s great Non-Nemesis Warbringer here:

 

I think that works pretty well. In-game you’d basically just use a warbringer but give it Warlord carapace options instead of the bellicosa or quake cannon. I think you’d end up with a reasonably-balanced unit.
 

I don’t know if it should be allowed melee weapons be/or any changes to stats. In theory a nemesis engine might be sacrificing things like speed in exchange for firepower, so maybe the normal version should be faster. That would leave you with just a better Reaver though, which isn’t as much fun, so I prefer to keep it slow. 

 

[Lord_Borak]

 

As the dashing Mr Mandragola has mentioned, I had similar musings for a while. So went about and hacked up an Ebay-rescue Warbringer into this wee chappy. I have since done some Vulcan Mega bolters for the Carapace as it seemed a bit over the top having 4 Reaver weapons.

 

 

As for the Warlord-Nemesis. A single WarMaster-grade weapon on top in a similar fashion to the Warbringer would be cool. As for 4 Warlord grade weapons I'm not sure the reactor could take it but then I'm no fluff expert. So go for it. you could always have 'smaller' variants on the shoulders. In the same way that the Warmaster has a 'smaller' version of the Melta Cannon for it's shoulder mounts. 

 

I really do wish FW/GW would make more carapace options for the Warbringer. But we could all wish-list for days now couldn't we. 

[Gattopardo]

It's really weird that GW haven't done anything more for the Warbringer. There should be more carapace options for the Nemesis variant for a start - I can't see a good reason why it shouldn't have all the ranged Warlord arm guns available to it. I don't know whether the fact it's portrayed as an artillery titan in the lore is holding them back from letting it mount some of the mid range guns like the Sunfury and Macro Gatling but if so that seems silly to me. 

 

It's also puzzling that they haven't produced a non nemesis variant as I don't think it would be difficult for them, especially if it was a resin conversion kit. These are small additions to the game but they would really freshen it up I think.

[Mandragola]

I agree these other weapon options would be fun. You’d probably have to be somewhat careful about what you added though, as paired plasma blastguns on a warlord would be absurdly powerful. 
 

For what it’s worth (not much) I’d like to see some new reaver/warbringer arms first. A missile pod arm would be great, for starters. Warbringers would really benefit from an arm weapon that could strip shields.

 

they’ve given us the Grav and volkite weapons and that’s nice. The Warbringer has just missed out on them, unfortunately. To be fair it’s the rarest of the engines due to its auxiliary status, so it probably does make sense to prioritise the others. But reaver arms would be cool. 

[apologist]

Cor, that's fantastic, @Lord_Borak – what a great conversion! Love the execution. Have you been able to work up some rules to play with it?

 

Lots of great feedback and thoughts here, thank-you all.

 

I absolutely agree that it would be good to see more variation in weaponry for the mid-level Battle Titans like the Reaver and the Warbringer. In fact, I'm surprised that this low-hanging fruit hasn't been picked, because not only are the concepts already here from the earlier editions of the game – inferno guns, plasma blastgun, vulcan mega-bolter etc. (not to mention the weirder battle claws, rams and so forth) – but the groundwork for the rules have been demonstrated through the Warhound and Warlord weapons. 

 

Our group has a fairly relaxed attitude to the game, so we've played quite happily with other Reaver Titan weapons on the arms of the Nemesis, and it all seems to work quite nicely; so I don't think it's necessarily a balance issue.

 

+++

 

Coming back to the non-Nemesis Warbringer, it's noted in the background as being renowned for the many sub-variations of the class, so a variety would be interesting. I think it'd be quite cool to see it able to mount either two warhound-class weapons on the carapace (as Lord Borak's above), or a single Reaver-class weapon plus a Fire Control tower or something. 

 

Stat-wise, I think the Nemesis Command Terminal is a good basis for the 'standard' Warbringer. I'd suggest that it perhaps loses a servitor clade (on the basis that it makes it a bit less reliable, and lore-wise the additional crew are needed to operate the unusually heavy weapon). Being slower but sturdier than a Reaver, and with the carapace weapons restricted to corridor leaves space for the Reaver (and also helps explains why the Warbringer isn't more common).

 

Musing out loud, then:

Size 9, 325 points + weapons, 4+ command, 3+ BS, 5+ WS, 5"/7" move, 2/3 maneuver, 3 servitor clades.

Arm weapons: Melta Cannon, Volcano Cannon, Laser Blaster, Gatling Blaster, Apocalypse Missile Launcher (as per Reaver carapace).

Carapace Weapons: Vulcan Mega Bolter Array (corridor); paired Turbo Laser Destructors (corridor); Gatling Blaster plus Fire Control Tower (corridor), Laser Blaser plus Fire Control Tower (corridor).

 

{Fire Control Tower: if the Warbringer scores a hit with the paired weapon on a target, the Warbringer's other weapons can re-roll missed hits of 1 against the same target until the end of the phase.)

[Lord_Borak]

20 minutes ago, apologist said:

Cor, that's fantastic, @Lord_Borak – what a great conversion! Love the execution. Have you been able to work up some rules to play with it?

 

 

Thank you :D 

 

I haven't actually. I did it mainly because I've just always been interested to see what a 'normal' Warbringer would look like. Although I don't really think anyone in my group would mind me using it. Maybe I will one day.... when everyone stops playing this silly new Heresy game and gets back to playing the much better Titanicus game lol.

 

As for rules, I would simply just swap out the Quake cannon for paired versions of the Reaver Carapace options with the Corridor ARC obviously. Should limit options maybe? Paired Grav could be fun now that I think of it. Weapon costs are all fairly generic points cost wise and the Warlord Carapace weapons would be a good template to work from as they are usually just double the cost of the non-paired versions. 

 

I'm not sure the Warbringer should lose a Servitor Clade. It's reactor and shields are on par with a Warlord. It's basically a 'light' Warlord. So let it have that lol.

 

I'd really rather they start releasing more smaller kits to be honest. Some scale 7 Titans for instance, or more Scale 6 ones. But a Warbringer conversion kit certainly wouldn't be much of an effort in the grand scheme of things.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Lord_Borak

[malika666]

Didn't @Iron Hands Fanatic come up with a few possible Warbringer/Nemesis variants?