Taurox vs Chimera

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

We're talking the base taurox here.

so for a while now i've been wondering how i really wanted to outfit my dragoons. tauroxes or chimeras.  4 S6 AP-1 D1 shots with 3 S5 AP-1 D2 shots, or 4 S7 AP-1 D2 shots with less armor and better movement.

by and large it seemed to be awash and both were pretty equal, just different. then i realized the chimera had 1 factor that kinda tips the scale for a mechanized army. the HK missile. if you only have one transport it may not make a difference, but if you have 3+ in your army the HK missile probably will make a difference especially if you are using elite sharpshooters, and use your reroll for the missile.

just my two cents.

[sairence]

I pretty much always feel I have something better to spend my points on than one show weapons tbh. Even with massing them, it just never feels worth it. Say I run 6 transports withHKs. Against a worthwhile target, so something with a similar statline to the transport. 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 saved. Very rounded obviously, but it just feels a bit meh, you know? If I could do it multiple turns I'd be more likely to have a go with them. 

 

[Minsc]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

so for a while now i've been wondering how i really wanted to outfit my dragoons. tauroxes or chimeras.  4 S6 AP-1 D1 shots with 3 S5 AP-1 D2 shots, or 4 S7 AP-1 D2 shots with less armor and better movement.

I tend to swap the Multi-Laser for a Heavy Bolter, and 2 Heavy Bolters outshine 2 Autocannons against most targets; especially when half of the shots have +1 to hit from the Turret-rule. Something thats also often overlooked is the Lasgun Array; If you keep Born Soldiers, those 12 shots can actually do some damage. 

Add the Chimera having +1W and +1T (MCR is a gimmick but it's nice if you actually need it), and the +2" M +15 point discount of the Taurox doesn't come close to compensate for everything it's missing out on.

The Chimera wins by a landslide in my opinion, it's not even close.
The Taurox is cute though, I'll grant it that (which is the main reason I field mine from time to time.)
 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Minsc

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, sairence said:

I pretty much always feel I have something better to spend my points on than one show weapons tbh. Even with massing them, it just never feels worth it. Say I run 6 transports withHKs. Against a worthwhile target, so something with a similar statline to the transport. 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 saved. Very rounded obviously, but it just feels a bit meh, you know? If I could do it multiple turns I'd be more likely to have a go with them. 

 

that's why i also mentioned elite sharpshooters, which will probably always be my second trait. every unit gets to reroll one miss per turn. the turn your chimera fires the HK, if it misses reroll that shot, and make that the first shot for the chimera each turn you fire one.

generally in the past though I agree, however i don't have things magnetized, and my army is lacking dedicated AT, so transports with HKs helps fill that gap, and at 5pts they're not that expensive. so in your case 30pts. not bad. i'm already like 20pts shy for my up coming game, so HKs on my chimera and sentinel are no brainers.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Minsc said:

I tend to swap the Multi-Laser for a Heavy Bolter, and 2 Heavy Bolters outshine 2 Autocannons against most targets; especially when half of the shots have +1 to hit from the Turret-rule. Something thats also often overlooked is the Lasgun Array; If you keep Born Soldiers, those 12 shots can actually do some damage. 

Add the Chimera having +1W and +1T (MCR is a gimmick but it's nice if you actually need it), and the +2" M +15 point discount of the Taurox doesn't come close to compensate for everything it's missing out on.

The Chimera wins by a landslide in my opinion, it's not even close.
The Taurox is cute though, I'll grant it that (which is the main reason I field mine from time to time.)
 

i'll never use born soldiers, too boring too lame, and doesn't really benefit a mechanized army all that much.

why would you swap the multilaser for a weapon with one less shot and one less S?

[Emperor Ming]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

why would you swap the multilaser for a weapon with one less shot and one less S?

 

The heavy bolter being d2, outperforms the multi-laser 

 

The ML cant even kill three marines

 

Its one thing that doesn't even need mathhammer

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

 

The heavy bolter being d2, outperforms the multi-laser 

 

The ML cant even kill three marines

 

Its one thing that doesn't even need mathhammer

assuming all 3 HB shots hit, wound and all 3 saves failed. 
i'm pretty sure they roughly even out in damage against MEQ once all the actual rolls are taken into consideration

 

[jarms48]

Multi-laser and HB is pretty close.

 

- ML will do 0.889 unsaved wounds to a marine, but only 1 damage.

- HB will do 0.667 unsaved wounds to a marine, but will kill them.

 

So ML is more reliable to actually something, but a HB will do more damage if it does something.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, jarms48 said:

Multi-laser and HB is pretty close.

 

- ML will do 0.889 unsaved wounds to a marine, but only 1 damage.

- HB will do 0.667 unsaved wounds to a marine, but will kill them.

 

So ML is more reliable to actually something, but a HB will do more damage if it does something.

Yep pretty close, but ML is more reliable against GEQs

 

i try to build my lists to take as much of all comers as I can. Hence why tossing an HK onto a chimera really makes a big difference 

[tychobi]

Taurox is better. Cheaper and faster. Hoping a Chimera will do damage reliably is a fools errand. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

52 minutes ago, tychobi said:

Taurox is better. Cheaper and faster. Hoping a Chimera will do damage reliably is a fools errand. 

7 shots you’re averaging 3.5hits, against low T high save  units they’re likely going to do very reliable damage.

 

against MEQ they’ll do pretty reliable damage. With HK and elite sharpshooters they stand a solid chance of also damaging T7-9 

use them like a Bradley you’ll probably get decent results.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Shamansky]

I think that every tool is for its' trade. You need faster and cheaper APC to deliver your 10 dudes from here to there — take Taurox. You need IFV and room for a character to support your 10 dudes — take Chimera.

[Minsc]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

i'll never use born soldiers, too boring too lame, and doesn't really benefit a mechanized army all that much.

why would you swap the multilaser for a weapon with one less shot and one less S?

 

Because as others have already stated, it does more damage against certain targets (MEQs, Vehicles, anything with more than 1 wound really) than the Multi-Laser does. 

As for you not using Born Soldiers, thats fine - but 12 S3 shots is still nothing to scoff at though even without Born Soldiers, and pushes the damage-dealing even further in favor of the Chimera over the Taurox.

 

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yep pretty close, but ML is more reliable against GEQs

Do you find yourself lacking tools to deal with GEQ when playing IG? I certainly don't, but If you do, by all means keep the Multi-Laser. 
 

3 hours ago, tychobi said:

Taurox is better. Cheaper and faster. Hoping a Chimera will do damage reliably is a fools errand. 

It's cheaper and faster for sure, no argument there. As for "better", I don't see how; It's cheaper because it's worse.

Guess I'm a fool them, but my Chimeras reliably deal out damage with their Heavy Bolters and Arrays. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Minsc

[crimsondave]

7 hours ago, tychobi said:

Taurox is better. Cheaper and faster. Hoping a Chimera will do damage reliably is a fools errand. 

If by better you mean less guns, easier to kill, hold less troops, no orders from, and no turret weapon bonus.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Minsc said:

 

Because as others have already stated, it does more damage against certain targets (MEQs, Vehicles, anything with more than 1 wound really) than the Multi-Laser does. 

As for you not using Born Soldiers, thats fine - but 12 S3 shots is still nothing to scoff at though even without Born Soldiers, and pushes the damage-dealing even further in favor of the Chimera over the Taurox.

 

Do you find yourself lacking tools to deal with GEQ when playing IG? I certainly don't, but If you do, by all means keep the Multi-Laser. 
 

It's cheaper and faster for sure, no argument there. As for "better", I don't see how; It's cheaper because it's worse.

Guess I'm a fool them, but my Chimeras reliably deal out damage with their Heavy Bolters and Arrays. 

lasguns can deal with GEQs sure but not particularly well. i like having options that deal with GEQs very easily and reliably.

2 hours ago, crimsondave said:

If by better you mean less guns, easier to kill, hold less troops, no orders from, and no turret weapon bonus.

i completely forgot about the turret bonus making the chimera an even more reliable damage dealer.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Pretty sure it said something like: integrated into base cost rather than flat out free

 

Any particular reason ur after it?

Someone in a FB group was asking for clarification and like 99% of people are saying they still have to pay for the sponsons

8 hours ago, Minsc said:

 

Because as others have already stated, it does more damage against certain targets (MEQs, Vehicles, anything with more than 1 wound really) than the Multi-Laser does. 

As for you not using Born Soldiers, thats fine - but 12 S3 shots is still nothing to scoff at though even without Born Soldiers, and pushes the damage-dealing even further in favor of the Chimera over the Taurox.

 

Do you find yourself lacking tools to deal with GEQ when playing IG? I certainly don't, but If you do, by all means keep the Multi-Laser. 
 

It's cheaper and faster for sure, no argument there. As for "better", I don't see how; It's cheaper because it's worse.

Guess I'm a fool them, but my Chimeras reliably deal out damage with their Heavy Bolters and Arrays. 

Idk what’s the mathhammer in T6 vehicles?

[Minsc]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Idk what’s the mathhammer in T6 vehicles?

Against T6 3+ they do the same damage:
ML: 4 shots, 2,67 hits, 1,33 wounds before saves, 0,67 wounds after saves.
HB: 3 shots, 2 hits, 0,67 wounds before saves, 0,33 after saves with D2 pushing it to 0,67 wounds.

(They do identical damage regardless if the target has a 3+ or 4+.)

Against T7-T9 3+;

ML: 0,44 wounds after saves.

HB: 0,67 wounds after saves.

 

Against T5 3+:

 

ML: 0,89 wounds after saves.
HB: 1,00 wounds after saves. 

Against T4 3+: 

ML: 0,89 wounds after saves.
HB: 1,33 wounds after saves.

 

Against T3 3+:

ML: 1,11 wounds after saves.
HB: 1,33 wounds after saves.

As long as you are shooting with something with more than 1 wounds, the HB will always come out on top, except against T6 where they are tied. 
On the flipside, the ML is better against targets with 1 wound.

Edit: Added T3 as well, because why not...

Edited January 18, 2023 by Minsc

[duz_]

Baneblade discussion separated into its own topic. 

[Sawtooth]

I'm planning to go full mechanized using Chimeras as my main transport. How do people feel about heavy flamers for the turret and hull? I know it's wasting the turret rule, but I'm planning to fill most of them with Cadians with plasma and melta and it seemed like an interesting idea. Also I could potentially ram an empty one into combat and still spray things with the turret if it came to protecting the disembarked troops. I don't know, I'm new to Guard and this edition and trying to figure things out.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Sawtooth said:

I'm planning to go full mechanized using Chimeras as my main transport. How do people feel about heavy flamers for the turret and hull? I know it's wasting the turret rule, but I'm planning to fill most of them with Cadians with plasma and melta and it seemed like an interesting idea. Also I could potentially ram an empty one into combat and still spray things with the turret if it came to protecting the disembarked troops. I don't know, I'm new to Guard and this edition and trying to figure things out.

You can use any of the turret weapons in combat since none of them have the blast rule.

it really largely just depends on what you expect to play against and how you plan to use the chimeras after they’re empty.

[greatcrusade08]

I Think chimeras are better, but i just want a couple of cheap transports so am going with taurox.