Codex Warfare and Wulfen

[phandaal]

Codex Warfare counts whatever doctrine is active for the whole army, not individual units. i.e. I cannot use Brilliant Tactician to put a unit back into the Tactical Doctrine and get points for killing things with bolters while the rest of the army is in the Assault Doctrine.

 

Although the wording of these abilities would imply that they are in fact changing the active Doctrine for your army when making your attacks, Games Workshop issued an FAQ years ago that implied that whatever Doctrine you chose at the start of the turn is still in effect for the rest of your army.

 

So with Wulfen you would need the army-wide doctrine to be Assault to get points for their melee kills.

Edited January 20, 2023 by phandaal

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, phandaal said:

So with Wulfen you would need the army-wide doctrine to be Assault to get points for their melee kills.

 

You are correct but in fact that is actually what the Wulfen special rules say. They are different to both Brilliant Tactician and Instincts awoken. In fact I think Wulfen are the only unit to get the rules worded in this way.

 

Quote

Savage Killers: Each time you make an attack for a model in this unit, if your army benefits from Combat Doctrines, the Assault Doctrine is treated as being active for your army for that attack. In addition, this unit is always treated as having made a charge move for the purposes of the Shock Assault ability.

 

Underlining is mine. So by the letter of the law, the Assault Doctrine is active for your whole army when Wulfen attack.

[phandaal]

Brilliant Strategist is the same. 

 

Quote

Each time a model in that unit makes an attack, if the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army, then the Devastator Doctrine is considered to be active for that attack instead.

Each time a model in that unit makes an attack, if the Assault Doctrine is active for your army, then the Tactical Doctrine considered to be active for that attack instead.

 

The wording does not say "for your army" in the second half because it is already noted in the first part of the sentence. The meaning is the same. Instincts Awoken is a bit different because it never says "for your army," but otherwise the same. Blood Chalice is another one. Same wording as Brilliant Strategist.

 

I can see why these wordings lead people to think it would score Codex Warfare points.

[Kallas]

16 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Brilliant Strategist is the same. 

I can see why these wordings lead people to think it would score Codex Warfare points.

 

The Wulfen special rule, "Savage Killers: Each time you make an attack for a model in this unit, if your army benefits from Combat Doctrines, the Assault Doctrine is treated as being active for your army for that attack."

 

Brilliant Strategist and Instincts Awoken do not state that it is considered active for your army, but they do use language that could be argued either way; Savage Killers explicitly does state it.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

The Wulfen special rule, "Savage Killers: Each time you make an attack for a model in this unit, if your army benefits from Combat Doctrines, the Assault Doctrine is treated as being active for your army for that attack."

 

Thank you for italicizing, bolding, underlining, and increasing the size of the font for a simpleton like me. Next time it would actually be more helpful if you could gradually increase the size of every letter though.

 

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Brilliant Strategist and Instincts Awoken do not state that it is considered active for your army, but they do use language that could be argued either way; Savage Killers explicitly does state it.

 

It is not language that could be argued either way - it is just how sentences work. "If the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army, then the Devastator Doctrine is considered to be active for that attack instead" is the same as "If the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army, then the Devastator Doctrine is considered to be active (for your army) for that attack instead."

 

Codex Warfare still works the same as it always has, only difference is now the points per doctrine are uncapped.

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Thank you for italicizing, bolding, underlining, and increasing the size of the font for a simpleton like me. Next time it would actually be more helpful if you could gradually increase the size of every letter though.

 

Sure thing, you seem to need all the help you can get.

[Captain Idaho]

Play nice or I call in the orbital strike.

[phandaal]

14 minutes ago, Kallas said:

 

Sure thing, you seem to need all the help you can get.

 

Thank you! You see how the wording works though, yeah? Doctrines apply to armies. They do not apply to units or to attacks.

 

If a unit has a different Doctrine, then it is already being treated as if the army was under whichever Doctrine, regardless of how it is worded.

[Kallas]

31 minutes ago, phandaal said:

If a unit has a different Doctrine, then it is already being treated as if the army was under whichever Doctrine, regardless of how it is worded.

 

You're ignoring the actual wording of the rule:

Quote

Savage Killers: Each time you make an attack for a model in this unit, if your army benefits from Combat Doctrines, the Assault Doctrine is treated as being active for your army for that attack. In addition, this unit is always treated as having made a charge move for the purposes of the Shock Assault ability.

 

Savage Killers literally says that the Assault Doctrine is treated as being active FOR YOUR ARMY for that attack. Unlike Instincts Awoken ("each time a model in that unit makes an attack, the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active for that attack instead of the currently active doctrine.") and Brilliant Strategist ("Each time a model in that unit makes an attack, if the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army, then the Devastator Doctrine is considered to be active for that attack instead.") which say it's only active for the attack but does not explicitly state that it is considered active for your army.

 

Savage Killers does what the others do not. Your refusal to acknowledge the way words work does not make it incorrect.

[Kallas]

I don't have the Arks of Omen pack yet, because GW has terrible ideas for distribution, apparently, but from what I've found online the only wording changes to Codex Warfare are to remove the cap on how many VPs each section can score, so with that, the wording is:

Quote

Score 2 victory points (to a maximum of 5 victory points) for each enemy unit that was destroyed as the result of an attack made with a Heavy or Grenade weapon by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from your army while the Devastator Doctrine was active for your army.

[...]

Score 1 victory point (to a maximum of 5 victory points) for each enemy unit that was destroyed as the result of an attack made with a Pistol or Melee weapon by an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from your army while the Assault Doctrine was active for your army.

 

So if the Wulfen make an attack, the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active for your army. Codex Warfare asks if the Assault Doctrine was active for your army. Savage Killers tells Codex Warfare that it was.

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

He’s still blowing up some of the words…

That's because those are the words that make Savage Killers different from Instincts Awoken/Brilliant Strategist, and seem to be ignored by Phandaal.

 

They are the reason Savage Killers works for Codex Warfare. Since someone has trouble reading, it's worth making it obvious.

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Savage Killers does what the others do not. Your refusal to acknowledge the way words work does not make it incorrect.

 

Doctrines are not a unit ability, nor are they an attack bonus. Doctrines are an army-wide ability. Units gain benefits based on what Doctrine is active for the army. There is no other way for Doctrines to function.

 

Anything that puts a unit into a Doctrine, regardless of wording, by definition treats that unit/attack as if the Doctrine was active for the army. "For your army" is redundant. A Doctrine is always "for your army." Hence the reason why it is not included most of the time.

 

If Savage Killers triggers Codex Warfare, then so do other Doctrine-manipulating abilities. Conversely, if other abilities do not trigger Codex Warfare, neither does Savage Killers.

[Kallas]

In fact, here's a screenshot of Codex Warfare, from Spiky Bits.

Spoiler

 

From that, we can see the wording is pretty much unchanged from Nephilim, bar the VP limitation on each section. So yeah.

[phandaal]

10 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

He’s still blowing up some of the words…

 

Not exactly. I just understand what a Doctrine actually applies to. It is an army-wide ability, not a unit ability. Units check the army-wide doctrine when making attacks, and then their attacks may gain a bonus depending on what Doctrine is active.

 

The "for your army" wording that seems to be the main focus here is not even necessary - it is always there whether it is written or not.

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, phandaal said:

it is always there whether it is written or not.

 

Factually inaccurate.

 

Units can be in Doctrines other than the one that is active for your army. Prime example is another Space Wolves Stratagem, Bestial Nature:

Quote

Use this Stratagem in your Command phase if a combat doctrine is active for your army. Select one SPACE WOLVES INFANTRY, SPACE WOLVES CAVALRY or SPACE WOLVES BIKER unit from your army. Until the start of your next Command phase, that unit gains the bonus of the Assault Doctrine instead of the active combat doctrine.

 

That unit is in the Assault Doctrine when making any attacks, and in fact at all times until the start of your next Command phase. While the generic Doctrines rule is army-wide, it is incorrect to say that everything is always army-wide at all times. The wording in Savage Killers is important, because it is an exception to other rules that allow you to use otherwise inactive Doctrines, which only affect a single unit.

 

A unit benefitting from Bestial Nature will not gain points towards the Assault Doctrine part of the Codex Warfare (unless for some reason you use it when the Assault Doctrine is active for your army, but that would just be a straight waste of 1CP), because the Assault Doctrine is not active for your army; the Tactical or Devastator Doctrine is, but that one unit "gains the bonus of the Assault Doctrine instead."

 

This is why "for your army" is relevant, and why its exclusion from Instincts Awoken/Brilliant Strategist is important to note.

[phandaal]

That example specifically refers to the bonus granted by being under a certain Doctrine. Not having a Doctrine be active for an attack. If a Doctrine is active for an attack, it is by definition active for the army. Doctrines are not unit abilities.

 

I know people really want to have some kind of loophole for extra points, but if the other abilities do not work for this, neither does Savage Killers.

[Karhedron]

14 minutes ago, phandaal said:

I know people really want to have some kind of loophole for extra points, but if the other abilities do not work for this, neither does Savage Killers.

 

I am with Kallas on this one. Savage Killers is worded distinctly differently to other abilities. It specifically states that the Assault Doctrine is active for the whole army for the duration of the Wulfens' attacks. It does not just apply to the unit or the attacks, it is the whole army! This is the requirement for triggering Codex Warfare. At the point you check to see if you score VPs, the army is indeed in the Assault Doctrine.

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I am with Kallas on this one. Savage Killers is worded distinctly differently to other abilities. It specifically states that the Assault Doctrine is active for the whole army for the duration of the Wulfens' attacks. It does not just apply to the unit or the attacks, it is the whole army! This is the requirement for triggering Codex Warfare. At the point you check to see if you score VPs, the army is indeed in the Assault Doctrine.

 

If a Doctrine is active for an attack, it is active for the army at the time of that attack.

 

Maybe this is where the disconnect is. I am not saying that Savage Killers does not count the army as being in the Assault Doctrine when the attack is made. It most certainly does, because that is now Doctrines work.

 

Abilities like Brilliant Strategist also count the Doctrine as being active for your army. A Doctrine being "active for an attack" means "active for your army for that attack." Doctrines are not active in any other way besides "active for your army."

 

Ergo - Savage Killer does not gain some special ability to trigger Codex Warfare beyond what other abilities already do or do not have. If those other abilities do not trigger Codex Warfare, neither does Savage Killer. On the flip side, if Savage Killer triggers Codex Warfare (based on "for your army") then so do those other abilities.

[Cleon]

Looking at the wording as presented the rules do say different things:sdfsdfg

"Use this Stratagem in your Command phase if a combat doctrine is active for your army. Select one SPACE WOLVES INFANTRY, SPACE WOLVES CAVALRY or SPACE WOLVES BIKER unit from your army. Until the start of your next Command phase, that unit gains the bonus of the Assault Doctrine instead of the active combat doctrine."

This rule is telling me that the Army is in the active combat doctrine, but the effected unit gains a different benefit - when compared to the objective, sorry no luck HOWEVER it would not stop that unit from scoring a by killing with bolters if the army is in tactical doctrine.

"Savage Killers: Each time you make an attack for a model in this unit, if your army benefits from Combat Doctrines, the Assault Doctrine is treated as being active for your army for that attack. In addition, this unit is always treated as having made a charge move for the purposes of the Shock Assault ability."

This rule is telling me that for the duration of the attacks and only the attacks (not the whole turn) the doctrine in force for the army changes to the Assault doctrine so it can score, but again if the unit had assault or rapid fire weapons they could claim the tactical point in the shooting phase.

[phandaal]

41 minutes ago, Cleon said:

This rule is telling me that for the duration of the attacks and only the attacks (not the whole turn) the doctrine in force for the army changes to the Assault doctrine

 

This has never been in dispute. And honestly, I think Savage Killers should score Codex Warfare based on that. However, based on the way other doctrine manipulating abilities are treated, it does not.

 

42 minutes ago, Cleon said:

so it can score, but again if the unit had assault or rapid fire weapons they could claim the tactical point in the shooting phase.

 

If other doctrine-changing abilities cannot score Codex Warfare, which seems to be the consensus, neither can Savage Killers.

 

The argument is: Savage Killers is different from other abilities, because Savage Killers says "the [Doctrine] is treated as being active for your army for that attack." Key words - "for your army."

 

Other abilities have wording that looks like this: "Each time a model in that unit makes an attack, if the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army, then the Devastator Doctrine is considered to be active for that attack instead." Missing words in the second half - "for your army."

 

The conclusion is: Savage Killers is different - it says "for your army" before "for that attack," therefore it satisfies a requirement where other abilities do not.

 

However, Doctrines are army-wide abilities. If a Doctrine is "active" it is "active for your army." There is no difference between "the Doctrine is active for that attack" and "the Doctrine is active for your army for that attack."

 

Which means that Savage Killers is not different. Either all of the abilities allow for scoring, or none of them do.

[Karhedron]

50 minutes ago, phandaal said:

However, Doctrines are army-wide abilities. If a Doctrine is "active" it is "active for your army." There is no difference between "the Doctrine is active for that attack" and "the Doctrine is active for your army for that attack."

 

Which means that Savage Killers is not different. Either all of the abilities allow for scoring, or none of them do.

 

I disagree. There is a difference and there is no implied "for your army" in the other cases. Savage Killers has different wording and so behaves differently. You are trying to argue that they are the same but only because you argue that the missing words are somehow present by implication. I do not agree that this is the case.

 

Different wording = Different scoring

[phandaal]

18 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

You are trying to argue that they are the same but only because you argue that the missing words are somehow present by implication.

 

I am telling you what the rulebook says.

 

Here - from Codex: Space Marines:

 

Quote

If every unit from your army has the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (excluding AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and UNALIGNED units), this unit gains a bonus (see below) depending on which Combat Doctrine is active for your army. During the first battle round, the Devastator Doctrine is active for your army. From the second battle round onwards, at the start of the battle round, you can change which Combat Doctrine is active for your army, as follows:

• If the Devastator Doctrine was active for your army during the previous battle round, you can change it so that the Tactical Doctrine is now active.
• If the Tactical Doctrine was active for your army during the previous battle round, you can change it so that the Assault Doctrine is now active.

 

What is a Combat Doctrine active for? An army or a unit?

 

In the second half of both bullet points, what are the Tactical Doctrine and Assault Doctrine active for?

[Cleon]

I see what you are saying, but if we take all the rules at their word we have two different sequences.

For the strategm:

1. Army is in Tactical doctrine
2. Unit comes to make attacks, the tactical doctrine bonuses are ignored and the Assault doctrine bonuses applied instead.

For the Wulfen rule:

1. Army is in tactical doctrine
2. Unit comes to make attacks
3. Tactical doctrine is removed
4. Assault doctrine is started
5. Attacks are made
6. Assault doctrine is ended
7. Tactical doctrine starts

Because the rule says Assault doctrine is treated as being active for the army when the attacks are made. Whether this is intended or is just sloppy language is a second point that does deserve an FAQ, but as written, that is what the rule is telling me it's doing.

[phandaal]

  

16 hours ago, Cleon said:

I see what you are saying, but if we take all the rules at their word we have two different sequences.

For the strategm:

1. Army is in Tactical doctrine
2. Unit comes to make attacks, the tactical doctrine bonuses are ignored and the Assault doctrine bonuses applied instead.

 

No one is saying that Bestial Nature does the same thing as the Wulfen ability. Bestial Nature is very clear that it specifically modifies the bonus the unit receives.

 

People are saying abilities like Brilliant Strategist, Adaptive Strategy, or Blood Chalice do something different from the Wulfen ability. Specifically, that the Wulfen ability counts a Doctrine as being active for your army while all those other abilities somehow transform a Doctrine into an attack bonus. This stems from a misunderstanding of what Doctrines are.

 

16 hours ago, Cleon said:

• Army is in tactical doctrine
• Unit comes to make attacks
• Tactical doctrine is removed
• Assault doctrine is started
• Attacks are made
• Assault doctrine is ended
• Tactical doctrine starts

 

Accurate, more or less. When the unit makes its attacks, it checks to see what Doctrine is active for the army to determine what bonuses apply to the attack. All units with the Combat Doctrines datasheet ability do this. Certain abilities and strategems can hijack this check and tell the unit a different Doctrine is active for the army.

 

Hence, these two wordings are functionally the same with regards to what they are telling a unit:

 

Quote

Each time a model in that unit makes an attack, if the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army, then the Devastator Doctrine is considered to be active for that attack instead.

 

Quote

Each time you make an attack for a model in this unit, if your army benefits from Combat Doctrines, the Assault Doctrine is treated as being active for your army for that attack.

 

Both are telling your unit that a certain Doctrine is active for the army.

Edited January 20, 2023 by phandaal