Post Arks of Omens point drops playing chaos (and Votann)

[Prot]

So in general, after the rules/points changes, how are you doing?

 

I'll start off by saying my games have been on the Heretic side, UNLESS I know I'm playing a Chaos player, then I switch to Space Marines to get both sides of it.

 

So far it feels too good for my Loyalist stuff. That is to say I'm enjoying some discounts that I just don't understand why Chaos didn't get them (especially with some units). 

 

I pulled out one of my worst marine armies to play against a buddy's Word Bearers. In the past this has been a very rough match up for me. Now with both of us losing AoC, I did find my White Scars disappeared with ease, however, he did too, and at the end of the game I had a convincing win with the Scars. I do not think it was my playing ability that did this. Simply put, I think most of chaos still has better 'tricks' than most of marines. BUT the difference was I had just so much more stuff than him.

 

I ended up pulling out Iron Warriors vs. Custodes, and it did not go well.... just could not get the board control in time, and I didn't even bother with Terminators which really sucked the survivability aspect of my list out the window.

 

I wanted to pull out my Black Legion but I think it needs Termies. I wanted to plop Abaddon in there, but every list I make (especially with Black Legion based around those two units) feels just too small to compete now.

 

So I'm wondering how you folks have adjusted.... are you still using Abe? How have your collisions with Space Marines been?

[Toldavf]

For me it comes down to a few things. So as an army, in general our stat lines are superior to most of the things loyalists can field, However that does not begin to tell even half of the story. 

 

In terms of gear you have access to such a wide array of weapons, options and war machines, the vast majority of which is superior to their chaos counterpart that the stat line difference is negated entirely, and in reality it is eclipsed.

In terms of book strengths let me break it down like this.  Chaos has better melee characters and better core melee troops and upgraded tanks, where as loyalists have better supporting characters, short range shooting specialists, long range shooting specialists, medium assault infantry, heavy assault infantry, fast assault infantry, ranged core troops, Infiltrators (we lack any), snipers (again have none).

At the end of the day its about the damage value and AP chaos has to much D1, not enough D3 and few ap values higher than 2. We have an over abundance of damage 1 and it would of been nice if they had given us a bit more of a spread. 
 

Loyalist marines as they stand can run 10 man squads with combi weapons, we can get 4 combi weapons max in a full 10 man squad. Our options are just lack lustre in comparison.

Who wants Full rerolls to hit? well if you are chaos you are limited to 2 legions (one of which is paying 350pts), loyalists can just have it in their army for honestly not all that much extra. 

[INKS]

I was putting together an Iron Warriors list. It had Terminators in it. I think it needs to. I also added Abaddon. 

It was a small list though. Marines are just getting super value town right now and chaos isn't.

[dice4thedicegod]

I feel like chaos is paying the price for black rune / illusurary supplication / terminators.    The fix should have been to make black rune a character only relic… but instead they overpriced chaos terminators .

[Malakithe]

I think people need to lean into more board control tactics. Increase your body count and leave high points costs stuff alone. Drop Abby, drop terminators. But then you have the issue of good anti-armor

[Cpt.Danjou]

I am going to try out a new tactic tomorrow with my IW. It is a complete experiment, three vindis, two maulerfiends, and one reaper ac squad for heavies. Three 7 man squads of legioners in rhinos, three spawns and Mop, Disco and a relic warpsmith. I am meeting an infantry heavy TS, without daemons if I am not mistaken. Every vehicle has been upgraded to maximum with comb-meltas and Havoc-launchers.

 

Let se how this goes tomorrow, and it will be proxy galor as I don't own any Vinids, but I have loads of Rhino chassis.

 

Cpt Danjou

[Prot]

Well I had a game yesterday vs Votann. Also ran into the friend who plays Word Bearers, and I think he's done with them for now. He has tried since the Arks changes, but it's just not letting him play the same, and the divide now with Space Marines has turned him off, and I understand that.

 

Anyway I did try Abaddon and Termies, and most of my list was... fairly competitive. My opponent took what he described as a far from optimized Votann list. For background this is my first game against Votann, and my opponent was very good at explaining the intricacies of Votann rules. IE: there were no "Gotcha" moments.

 

My first impression of Votann.... Brutal. I've watched some tournament coverage and batreps, but to go through it first hand, I was continually amazed at how many special rules are 'plucked' from multiple codexes and place in so many of these units. 

 

My second impression was, wow do I miss AoC... and they have it. 

 

My third impression was a feeling of disdain for GW's treatment of Chaos Termies. I will always stand by what I considered to be a 'factoid': Termies are the anchor of Chaos. They are absolutely amazing in Deathguard, and Thousand Sons without the need for relics/powers/CP expenditures. But they are stricken pretty hard by Arks.

 

To make things worse I felt his -equivalent- of Termies were just so much better. No invuln, but we know how 2+ feels with AoC right? An incredible hammer (we don't have access to on sarge) and the bulit in "Deathguard ability" of -1 damage, and every model having basically 'fists' was just so incredibly potent.

 

He had another squad of these T5 termies that deepstruck and it blew me away in the fact they felt like some sort of bizzarre hybrid of.... Plasma Inceptors + Aggressors + Termies. Each had a sort of over charged plasma shot combined with D6 bolt type shots, + being a T5 Termie.

 

Those 2 units really just made the whole nerf to CSM Termies just seem indeed like paying for having success in tournaments (all be it in the AoC era). 

 

I will say I won the game on points, but I can't stress this enough: It was a total joke of a win. He wasn't trying. He peeled apart my army with ease. His basic troops shoot really efficient marine killing weapons. Mine are doing very little. Fists doing 2 damage turning into 1, his psykers were excellent, and ignored perils... he just had an answer for everything.

 

How I won was I simply respawned Cultists on his objective in my turn to proc Long War, and Take the objective proc'ing hold More, and then killed the single remaining bike to proc the second effect of Long War. With what I admit is a cheap, janky move, I literally stole something like 10+ points in that single command phase.

 

We both laughed because it was a joke at that point. He was great about it, and I wasn't salty at all, but it did make me feel like GW over flexed on Chaos in a big way.

 

So there are lots of things I could go over, but this is turning into a long post so let me just say the feeling I had was something that has been echoed recently: We (Chaos) may fit comfortably into a role of 'elite' units, and maybe that's where we excel, but I think it's over. 

 

That is to say without AoC, and our point increases I think it's a dead playstyle without a severe edge. Abaddon never made it close combat, and since I could never re-roll a 'to wound' roll, I simply over paid a lot for a 'chapter master'. The termies are 100% over costed, and marks/relics, psychic powers, Dark Litanies do not keep them alive now. It's all just incredibly over costed now.

 

I think at high competitive levels it's quite possible this is dead. I think we need to play jank units, with tricks like leaving the table, coming back, purely going for scoring and foot print/table coverage. 

 

It's just a theory right now because I think I'm under 6 games with Chaos since Arks/AoC nerf, but the multiplied effect of these nerfs combined with the reductions in loyalist costs really comes across rough. Right now I'm just thinking we have to stay cheap and get ready to pull a lot of the table every turn, but make it cheap stuff instead of stuff you not only over pay for but you have to spoon feed heaps of buffs.... it's not worth it.

 

Also time to look at Wardogs... put them in reserves, and I think they geared Arks to push Armigers/Wardogs, but I guess we'll see if that's true or not. 

[Prot]

18 minutes ago, Cpt.Danjou said:

I am going to try out a new tactic tomorrow with my IW. It is a complete experiment, three vindis, two maulerfiends, and one reaper ac squad for heavies. Three 7 man squads of legioners in rhinos, three spawns and Mop, Disco and a relic warpsmith. I am meeting an infantry heavy TS, without daemons if I am not mistaken. Every vehicle has been upgraded to maximum with comb-meltas and Havoc-launchers.

 

Let se how this goes tomorrow, and it will be proxy galor as I don't own any Vinids, but I have loads of Rhino chassis.

 

Cpt Danjou

 

Sorry I missed this as I was typing my long post... I like this idea for Iron Warriors. especially the cheaper infantry and spawn.  I'm very curious about the Vidi's. Please let us know, and good luck!

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

9 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I think people need to lean into more board control tactics. Increase your body count and leave high points costs stuff alone. Drop Abby, drop terminators. But then you have the issue of good anti-armor

Thing is, terminator bricks with all the buff were board control.  Legionaries arent really a substitute for that since they die so easily still.  Abaddon and terminators for BL arent going anywhere imo but other legions will look different... and probably worse.  Hard to say what things will look like but my guess is that guard/marines will dumpster everyone.  

[Toldavf]

Gonna be worse for us once world eaters are released, they do everything we do only much better. 

[INKS]

Loyalists are saving 100s of points. That is hard to compete with. Chaos is going to need some love in order to be a better performer. Before that can happen we need to see them take a dive in win % which just hasn't happened yet. (it's coming)

 

That being said, WE are coming and maybe Vashtorr AOR or in general will be a help.

[WrathOfTheLion]

For me, I'm wondering about units like Word Bearers Warp Talons, and things like that. I'll need to do some thinking about it, but I'm thinking of units that can do work without character support. Maybe there's some jank crap you can do with getting those hits coming out of reserve and all, now that reserves costs nothing. Another thought I'm having is that if we'd be looking at playing weird scoring games with bodies, is there any mileage to get out of the Red Corsairs' tactic, with advance and charge and their scoring bonus?

 

The divide with normal marines is going to be really bad I think, however. It's going to be difficult to compete with them having in the hundreds of extra points, which just didn't make its way to the other marine factions even though they too took the hits it was there to make up for.

 

I'd be interested to see what those stats look like once they start coming in. Will GW have to do a second pass in the time before 10E if percentage rates tank in the double digits?

Edited January 22, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[WatchCaptainNavar]

I think I’m in the same boat as everyone else here, very disheartened with the state of CSM vs there loyalist counter parts.

 

what stood out to me when I was putting together an iron warriors lists for arks is my current terminator brick (10 models, black rune, MoS, 6 power fists & 2 heavy flamers) came out to 420pts while for my iron hands a 10 man relic terminator squad with all the goodies they want plus a 5 man assault terminator unit with hammer and shield came out to 495. 75 points in it for 5 extra terminators and any weapon you want them to have and that’s before you’ve added the supporting characters that chaos terminators need to keep them on the board.

 

As a result I’m in a bit of a funk with my iron warriors the more recent codex’s have enough AP, damage and special rules that means msu legionaries squads drop like flys as they cross the board towards gun lines so you have to have enough to trade and although when they get into combat a 105pt msu with MoK and chainswords can deal damage when your playing the objectives with them I can be quite jealous of the 5 man tactical squad with multi melta and combi melta.

 

my current idea because I haven’t got the rest of my possessed and chosen currently was to lean into the iron warriors gun line with a heavy support based arks list-

 

Hqs

dark appostle - bastion trait, terminator support

 

master of possession (MoS) - liber heretics, delightful agonies, pact of flesh, mutated invigoration, terminator support and healing

 

sorcerer - presence and warp time, boost the havocs shooting and give the terminators extra turn 1 movement then in later turns boost the legionaries movement to claim objectives.

 

warpsmith - warlord, mechadendrites relic, vehicle support

 

troops 

 

cultist mob - home objective sitter & mortal wound shield

 

2x 5 legionaries squad - MoK, pistol and swords, sgts with power fists and one has a melta the other a flamer. I think I’ll hold them back then go after midboard objectives in later turns.

 

elites

 

10 Terminators - black rune, MoS, 2 power fists, chain fist, reaper auto cannon. They’ll do what they always do walk up the middle of the board with support and be an obstacle / fire base / gradual threat to the opponent’s deployment zone.

 

fast attack

 

Venom crawler - fast enough to make itself a priority target and now more deadly with AoC gone. I’ll use it as a distraction.

 

heavy support

 

2x chaos vindicators - shield, combi melta & havoc launcher, start out of los and then drive that demolisher cannon into range of the biggest threat, the damage can be swingy but they’ve served me well since the codex came out.

 

Forgefiend - triple plasma, the iron warriors double the unit size for blast is great at letting this thing kill heavy infantry especially the primaris units that come in units of 3. It’ll sit most the game with the warpsmith thanks to the +1 to hit buff and it’s base range.

 

Havocs - 2 heavy bolter & 2 havoc AC, for 20 points more than a ranged 5 man csm troop with MoT it gets more firepower, T5 and move and shoot. I’d rather have 4 auto cannons but i don’t have the models. I think I’m going to use them like a legionarie squad move up the board blasting 

 

havocs - 3 las cannon & missile launcher, sit by the deployment zone objective and provide long range fires while screening the warpsmith. The missile launcher allows the anti air stratagem and I had to drop the MoS as 20 points was to much for the auto six strat 

 

Maulerfiend - lasher tendrils, joins the venom crawler in charging up the board early to force target priorities to the opponent.

 

key stratergems - iron warriors - mortal wound protection, auto wound vehicles on 6s to hit and finally double the model count for blast, fire blast into combat and reroll a damage. CSM - MoK auto wound on 6s, chosen for +1 to hit on terminators.

 

compared to my lists since the codex came out which have been mid range move up, shoot and then assault by turn 3 I see this list as playing for the later turns, using cover, LoS and trying to keep out of the range of all the nasty 24 inch weaponry that’s either high AP, a bucket of dice or auto wounding on x to hit. I still don’t think it’s a particularly good list as it gives away a lot and a lot of armies can kill multiple tanks a turn.

But my only alternative on the models I own would be to go max troops and play a hoard of csm which would die but trade, however I’m model limited on close combat, special & heavy weapons along with sgt gear so a lot of them would end up as 5 man bolter squads to trade for primaries and secondaries. 

 

the temptation when running into our clubs guard, deamons, our local competitive players and every marine now being run as iron hand successors is to put the iron warriors on the shelf and join the party as I’ve an effective iron hands list without buying new stuff that I I could make even better with some choice purchases of a gladiator reaper or 2.

 

[MegaVolt87]

I'm honestly not surprised with the changes. I think we had a badly designed codex, and now it's a weak one. 10th edition can't come soon enough. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

I'm honestly not surprised with the changes. I think we had a badly designed codex, and now it's a weak one. 10th edition can't come soon enough. 

I thought it was a fine codex, one of the most fun I've played with. It's just it was very clearly designed by a team that was trying to write more reasonable stuff (which probably also wrote Daemons, Knights and Chaos Knights, maybe GSC?), while the other team was pumping out Eldar/Nids/Votann/Guard.

 

My thought is that there's two codex writing teams, and the fruits of their work are quite noticeable for the books coming out in 2022, that you can basically pinpoint which one wrote what book.

Edited January 22, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Relic]

I have not played enough Arks to comment to be honest. Whilst echoing the sentiments shared so far - on the bright side no AOC helps a lot of our damage profiles, free gear on Legionnaires which was already a decent unit, better secondaries such as behind enemy lines, more CP potential through some secondary mission play and free reserves which helps some glass cannon units such as Havocs and also units to score aforementioned behind enemy lines.

 

As an Iron Warrior player - I am also happy with our pseudo mini AOC Legion trait as -1/-2 AP is really when it kicked in anyways in my opinion. 

 

We will see how it shakes out, but not a dead faction. 

 

 

[Prot]

Without too much quoting, I'll just say I am not going to debate whether the codex upon release was 'good' or 'bad'. All I can say is in my opinion I liked a lot of it. Just because it had been years of suffering under Gav-Dex syndrome and this was as close as we got back to super flexible (remember Vet abilities?) troops in a very long time. And that theme (for me) resonated throughout the codex, and I very much missed that flexibility.

 

But far more importantly for me I think the biggest error was GW making -any- changes to this codex based on data collected during the launch of the codex which coincided with a short term rule (AoC) which was largely responsible for the descisions in that data.

 

Did Khorne on the CoB need to be turned down? Perhaps. What I'm talking about is all point increases while their functionality largely benefited from a rule they intended to yank at the same time as making these amendments. Meanwhile we're sitting on... our 3rd (?) Votann nerf and they are still really, really potent. I just can't understand this.

 

Regardless, it is what it is, I guess we're trying to figure out how to make adjustments at this point. 

 

Those saying MSU is they way to go, I'm on the fence with that because a great deal of our success is supported through buffs/relics/marks etc that pretty much all have a mechanism that makes them work better on larger squads. IE: you don't want to put Black Rune, or MoS, or Cursed Earth, or Trans-Hitman on a 5 man squad. All of these are far better on your significantly larger squads. 

 

If we break back down to 10 cultists, 5 man cheapo squads, I honestly don't think that will work because we pay too much for it all. But I will continue to test.

[WatchCaptainNavar]

I have enjoyed codex csm since it came out, but I do agree with the attitude that GW is very random in its rules writing with some codex’s launching into the meta with the tools to smash there way to the top while others just stroll along or even worse just fall out of the gate never to be seen again.

 

On the whole while in the vacuum we have some very good units it feels like our codex at it’s core was designed around combos with key words or marks unlocking stratagems, which would have worked well under the pre nephelim CP system, now we start with 6 and have to buy traits and relics pre game so we start with 2/3 gaining 1 per turn means I have my core few 1cp strats and I’ve never used the majority as I either don’t have the CP or want to preserve them for key moments.

 

For MSU this might be conformation bias but from our Friday night club night. Our local guard player is running 6 russes and the battle cannons being d6+3 ap-2 d3 and even better on the specialist russes means every failed save is a marine gone. Meanwhile our super competitive iron hands player at 2k is running a fellblade, 2 gladiator reapers, 6 Eradicators, 2 invictor war suits and hammer and shield assault terminators with the list being closed out with heavy intercessors and the usual buffing HQs. That’s a list I don’t even want to take on as his previous fell blade list was good before marines Got significantly cheaper.

As such being able to prevent more casualties by forcing overkill is helpful.

 

ive now put together an iron warriors infantry list based on what I’ve got and aiming for banners, engage and being flexible on the third option. When I’ve got a bit more time later I’ll post it up.

[Prot]

2 minutes ago, WatchCaptainNavar said:

 

 

For MSU this might be conformation bias but from our Friday night club night. Our local guard player is running 6 russes and the battle cannons being d6+3 ap-2 d3 and even better on the specialist russes means every failed save is a marine gone. Meanwhile our super competitive iron hands player at 2k is running a fellblade, 2 gladiator reapers, 6 Eradicators, 2 invictor war suits and hammer and shield assault terminators with the list being closed out with heavy intercessors and the usual buffing HQs. That’s a list I don’t even want to take on as his previous fell blade list was good before marines Got significantly cheaper.

As such being able to prevent more casualties by forcing overkill is helpful.

 

ive now put together an iron warriors infantry list based on what I’ve got and aiming for banners, engage and being flexible on the third option. When I’ve got a bit more time later I’ll post it up.

 

Just reading what you're facing, I do agree with the principle 100%. I just don't know how to pull it off... competitively. Even in facing the Votann that big tank is crazy good, the beam is easily able to spank a few tanks at once, and the way I understood it, if he hits for example a terminator squad, he can have the damage carry through (effectively like mortal wounds, kind of like the mace that Deathguard have). So yea, a big unit is in trouble.

 

I'm wondering if for Black Legion I just use Abe as my expensive all arounder, and just flood the board with black flies. :) Abe can't be every where, but I think I have to just drop the termie brick and chosen units all together. Even if it means not having a good target for buffs. 

 

I'd like to see your list even if you want to start a new thread with it.

 

 

[INKS]

I'l throw an IW list up that did well. Votann just spanked them but otherwise it did well for this weekend. 

Master of Possession [6 PL, 105pts, -1CP]: 2. Daemonsmith, Aspiring Lord, Chaos Undivided, Cursed Earth, Pact of Flesh

 

Sorcerer [6 PL, 110pts, -1CP]: Eye of Tzeentch, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Stratagem: Relic, Warptime

 

Warpsmith [5 PL, 85pts]: Chaos Undivided, Thunder hammer, Warlord

 

Cultists Mob [2 PL, 50pts]
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 8x Cultist firearm, 8x Frag & Krak grenades
. Chaos Cultist w/ flamer
. Cultist Champion: Cultist firearm

 

Legionaries [13 PL, 177pts]: Chaos Icon, Mark of Khorne
. Aspiring Champion: Daemon blade, Power fist
. 6x Marine w/ astartes chainsword: 6x Astartes chainsword, 6x Bolt pistol, 6x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ heavy chainaxe
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
 

 

Chaos Leviathan Dreadnought [13 PL, 220pts, -1CP]: 2x Grav-flux bombard
. Two twin volkite calivers

 

Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]

Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]

Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]
 

Chaos Land Raider [14 PL, 265pts]: Combi-flamer, Havoc launcher

 

Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 130pts]: Combi-melta, Havoc launcher, Vindicator siege shield

 

Obliterators [15 PL, 270pts]
. 3x Obliterator: 3x Crushing fists, 3x Fleshmetal guns

Obliterators [15 PL, 270pts]
. 3x Obliterator: 3x Crushing fists, 3x Fleshmetal guns

 

 

 Thoughts on 6 Oblits- I deployed all of them on the table every game. First squad would advance and use the strat to fire; other squad got a Warptime from the sorcerer. Deploying them on the line meant I could have them both fire turn 1, which was nice. 

 

Khorne legionaries made for an excellent obsec trading unit

 

Venomcrawlers- love em, but they just kindof existed to be targets against Votann, even against DG they were more useful (edited)

 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I've been looking at my lists and I'm starting to pivot away from Terminators and more towards Chosen, Possessed and Daemon Engines. I've had great success with Daemon Engines in recent months and my 2K list is looking to have 6 with a Master of Possession thrown in.

Spoiler

Lord Disco, Balefalmer, Flames of Spite, Gorget of Eternal Hate, MoT

Master of Possession

Warpsmith, Techno-venomous tendrils

 

5 Legionnaires, 1x melta, Powerfist+Plasma pistol, Icon

5 Legionnaires, 1x Chaincannon, Daemon blade, Icon

 

5 Possessed

10 Chosen, 1 Powerfist, Icon, MoS

 

VenomCrawler

 

Landraider

Defiler, Scourge + twin HB

Defiler, Scourge + twin HB

Forgefiend, 3x Ecto

Maulerfiend, Lashertendrils

 

Their abundance of Damage 2 (heavy bolters, Defiler Scourge, Venomcrawler, Lord Disco) and 3 (Ectoplasma, Battlecannon, Maulerfiend fists) really gives these a boost as SM are becoming more prevailent again. I think Forgefiends with Ectoplasma can really do the ranged heavy lifting for the army in a codex that is so focused on D1 attacks.

 

I need to get some games with my Red Corsairs in soon too, I think they can work to a lot of the armies strengths and do the board control game well too. The Armour of Badab relic (5+ Invuln aura, 4+ to Terminators) on a sorcerer surrounded by Terminators and bikes seems like a good play to hold the midboard and get Terminators into position+Prescience and Huron's Chaptermaster ability

 

As others have said, the Chaos codex isn't the strongest but it's bloody fun and such a blast (I was having a blast with the 8th ed Codex up until the 9th ed codex dropped, mind, so my judgement might be questionable )

[Prot]

I'm really curious how a pivot towards daemon engines works out for you. I haven't had a ton of luck in that area. There seems to be some very hard match ups but I'm also definitely moving away from the Termie block build.

[Cpt.Danjou]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:52 PM, Prot said:

 

Sorry I missed this as I was typing my long post... I like this idea for Iron Warriors. especially the cheaper infantry and spawn.  I'm very curious about the Vidi's. Please let us know, and good luck!

 The Vindi Spam worked ok-ish, none of them was destroyed at the end of the battle, and they killed a lot of stuff. The main issue I had was that the few objective holding units. I am thinking of scrapping the Havoc squad, for an other legioner unit or even three cultist units. The Maulerfiends were the true heroes, they moved through rubrics and terminators like two wrecking balls, but both died at the end, taken down with lots of TS spells. Oh and the TS won, but I had a blast trying out something new I can build on.

 

Cpt. Danjou

[INKS]

Try a Noctilith Crown when using the vindicator

[WrathOfTheLion]

I had dropped Abaddon at some point for Black Legion, because I was playing down at like 1500 points and I thought he was too much even then. Do y'all think he is still worth it at 350 points, or are you considering dropping him as well?