Where do we need buffs for 10?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I know we’re not supposed to be a super duper mega awesome melee army, but we are supposed to be better than chapters like UM or IF for example, and honestly the rules we have just don’t seem to reflect that too much.

 

aside from +1 to charge and a slight buff to first round of combat our rules don’t seem to reflect that much imo.

 

a melee UM build will end up being generally as effective as a typical BA army.

 

for example I think sanguinary guard should be WS2+ 

don’t need any extra special rules in the datasheet, or to buff the encarmine weapons, just make them expert duelists by giving them a better WS.

 

where else does the community see deficiencies that could be brought up to par in 10th?

[Reskin]

They just won the largest 40k tournament in the US. Hello?? 

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

for example I think sanguinary guard should be WS2+ 

 

Hitting on 2s with SG is easy. Having them near a Warlord to triggers Heirs of Azkellon and the Sanguinary Ancient both have this effect.

1 hour ago, Reskin said:

They just won the largest 40k tournament in the US. Hello?? 

 

That tournament was still using Armour of Contempt IIRC and it was a Sanguinary Guard spam list. This list was pretty much the BA's main competitive build and took a huge hit with the removal of AoC.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, Reskin said:

They just won the largest 40k tournament in the US. Hello?? 

Cool? 
that doesn’t mean that we don’t have places we could use buffs and still not OP.

 

people who win events like the LVO could win or come in top 3 with most any reasonably strong army.

 

what’s the BA overall win rate? Is it still below 50%?

 

are you aware of what an outlier is?

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Hitting on 2s with SG is easy. Having them near a Warlord to triggers Heirs of Azkellon and the Sanguinary Ancient both have this effect.

 

That tournament was still using Armour of Contempt IIRC and it was a Sanguinary Guard spam list. This list was pretty much the BA's main competitive build and took a huge hit with the removal of AoC.

I think the 2+ should be inbuilt tbh

Edited February 3, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Djangomatic82]

I don't know if a buff to specific units like SG or an increase to our punch is necessarily the way to go. +1 to wound is a big deal already and puts us in a pretty interesting niche.

Personally, I would like to see something that expands our assault identity in line with our unique army options more than just another buff to our melee stats.

 

Of all the SM chapters, BA have access to the best spread of Pistol weapons and it would be cool to see something play off of that aspect, in addition to the Red Thirst.

 

Something like a shoot twice with Pistol weapons would be interesting and would give us a pretty cool boost while maintaining the drawbacks inherent to Pistol weapons.

 

Essentially having a 12" boltgun that is always shooting twice, a 6" multi melta or a S3 2D6 Flamer could be very tempting options that would incentivize us to skew towards building  with close assault options , without explicitly penalizing our more generic SM units.

[Arkangilos]

Buffs are useless the way armies are released. They can buff us up to 11, by the time the edition is done we will be back to where we are because everyone else will be buffed.

 

There are two real solutions:

1) Make all armies at the same time and play test them all together.

 

2) stop caring about balance and go for narrative, with space marines being more OP than most other units, but much more expensive, and other narrative rules that guide it.

 

Personally, I’m in favor of number 2, because narrative games should be the focus. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Not a buff but I hope at some point we get a unique gravis unit.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’ve wondered what a BA specific gravis melee unit might look like, and I think basically a kit bash of BGVs and aggressors.

 

shields, encarmine weapon options, bolt/flame/melta gauntlet.

[Arkangilos]

Gravis are too big and slow looking. Not angelic enough. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Gravis are too big and slow looking. Not angelic enough. 

Small and fast has nothing to do with BA.

 

BA like jump infantry, and like to fly yes, but BA are as codex compliant as they can be, and lean towards melee.

Using transports is also traditionally very BA as well, and ground slogging gravis do have transport options.
 

in the primaris range BGV are very BA because they’re a melee unit.

inceptors are BA because they’re jump infantry.

 

heck maybe would could get a mashup of inceptors, and BVG, with an option for encarmine weapons and a bolt/flame/melta storm gauntlets.

 

that way it’s 100% BA themed.

 

The armor particularly the helmets can be designed and modeled to be angelic as we want, or do you just not believe in thicc and chonky angels?

edit, how long have you been in the hobby, and specifically BA?

Edited February 5, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

edit, how long have you been in the hobby, and specifically BA?

For as long as I can remember, with every BA codex from 2nd to now, Blood Quest, the IA article, Malevolence, and just about everything else BA related.

 

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Small and fast has nothing to do with BA.

 

BA like jump infantry, and like to fly yes, but BA are as codex compliant as they can be, and lean towards melee.

Using transports is also traditionally very BA as well, and ground slogging gravis do have transport options.

Sleek Angelic aesthetics is something very BA. Sure they would use Gravis, but Gravis isn’t really “them”. It is too brutish, too barbaric looking. Renaissance Aesthetics is literally their thing. 
 

Also, I’m fairly certain you admitted before you didn’t really read HH stuff regarding them, and based on our recent conversations you don’t know much of their 40K lore either. I mean you literally said Sanguinary Guard use the Death Mask of Sanguinius.

[Arkangilos]

1 minute ago, Arkangilos said:

Using transports is also traditionally very BA as well, and ground slogging gravis do have transport options.

They used super fast engines, though. Their stuff was never “sloggy” except for their terminators (which could DS).

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

For as long as I can remember, with every BA codex from 2nd to now, Blood Quest, the IA article, Malevolence, and just about everything else BA related.

 

Sleek Angelic aesthetics is something very BA. Sure they would use Gravis, but Gravis isn’t really “them”. It is too brutish, too barbaric looking. Renaissance Aesthetics is literally their thing. 
 

Also, I’m fairly certain you admitted before you didn’t really read HH stuff regarding them, and based on our recent conversations you don’t know much of their 40K lore either. I mean you literally said Sanguinary Guard use the Death Mask of Sanguinius.

'angelic' aesthetics is subjective, and luckily with channels like wolf lord rho, i don't need to spend hundreds of dollars on a book series that's nothing more than a blatant money grab in order to keep apace of the pertinent major events of HH series.

BA are about melee, not small, not sleek. 'angelic aesthetics' are pretty new to to the army considering it existed for something like 30 years before SG guard ever showed up, which is where i'd say roughly 90% or so of their angelic aesthetics comes from.

as for the SG and death masks, the 2009 codex( what was that 4th edition? 5th maybe?) literally says they wear death masks. so my bad for having something from my teenage years stuck in my head, and not referring to them as 'angelic visages'

edit

just did the math, at $16 per book it'll be over $1000 for the HH series, i'm definitely not spending that kind of money on the series, when i could buy a whole new army with that money.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

so if your whole thing is a BA specific unit needs to be fast and have a jumppack, gravis with jumppacks are already a thing, now we just need to arm them with a melee load out, give them 'angelic visages' and useless decorative wings, and we've hit every box except maybe 'sleek' which i'd say gravis armor is big, but still pretty sleek. sleeker than TDA, sleeker looking than land raiders or rhino chasis vehicles, so yeah i'd say jump melee gravis unit fits the BA quite fine, especially if GW decides to give them 6 pack abs.

[Arkangilos]

20 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

as for the SG and death masks, the 2009 codex( what was that 4th edition? 5th maybe?) literally says they wear death masks.

Not all death masks are Death Masks of Sanguinius, but why would you even be relying on the 5th Edition (4th was White Dwarf Codex) for an argument anyways (by the way, 4th edition they were still regular death masks, not the DMoS). 
 

Also, Angelic Aesthetics doesn’t mean “SG”, it does mean artistic and more sleek. Dante looked Angelic even in older editions. But let’s take older editions out, they look angelic now, and that’s the aesthetics we have.

 

20 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

not small

Not once did I use the word small. You did. I said Gravis were too big. They are bulky and ugly as heck. They look more like gorillas. They in no way fit the BA description enough to warrant a special one.

 

20 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

angelic' aesthetics is subjective, and luckily with channels like wolf lord rho, i don't need to spend hundreds of dollars on a book series that's nothing more than a blatant money grab in order to keep apace of the pertinent major events of HH series.

If you call being wrong about the lore in about every way as “lucky”, then sure. 
 

By the way, I also said nothing about buying every book. But ones pertinent to the lore you don’t even know? Yeah, probably should at least know what it says before you try pretending to know something.

 

As for “referring to them as Angelic Visages” no one said to do that, because that is still wrong. They are death masks. Plain, regular, death masks. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Not all death masks are Death Masks of Sanguinius, but why would you even be relying on the 5th Edition (4th was White Dwarf Codex) for an argument anyways (by the way, 4th edition they were still regular death masks, not the DMoS). 
 

Also, Angelic Aesthetics doesn’t mean “SG”, it does mean artistic and more sleek. Dante looked Angelic even in older editions. But let’s take older editions out, they look angelic now, and that’s the aesthetics we have.

 

Not once did I use the word small. You did. I said Gravis were too big. They are bulky and ugly as heck. They look more like gorillas. They in no way fit the BA description enough to warrant a special one.

 

If you call being wrong about the lore in about every way as “lucky”, then sure. 
 

By the way, I also said nothing about buying every book. But ones pertinent to the lore you don’t even know? Yeah, probably should at least know what it says before you try pretending to know something.

 

As for “referring to them as Angelic Visages” no one said to do that, because that is still wrong. They are death masks. Plain, regular, death masks. 

How does Dante look angelic aside from his mask of a literal angel?

he’s just a marine with a jump pack.

 

what is the opposite of big exactly? Oh yeah small.

 

while there’s never been a unique BA terminator unit, terminators have always been closely associated with BA yet they are massive suits of armor.

 

your arguments fall flat.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

so if your whole thing is a BA specific unit needs to be fast and have a jumppack

Nope, my whole thing was not “must be fast and have a jump pack.” It was aesthetics. As I said, Gravis are too bulky looking. Though it’s not so much that as they look like too heavy apes. Terminators at least look balanced. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I like some of the Gravis units. I just don’t want a special Gravis unit. I want special assault units that don’t look chunky. (… and I admit… jump packs…)

[Arkangilos]

1 minute ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

13 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

How does Dante look angelic aside from his mask of a literal angel?

he’s just a marine with a jump pack.

Seriously? Have you not looked at him? he’s not just a marine, he has formed artificer armor that is painted gold. 
 

I mean the only difference between him and SG are the wings and mark of the jump pack. 
 

Mephiston looks angelic too, in the vampiric way. Same with Corbulo. And all that goes back to Renaissance styles.

[Toldavf]

I don't think its a BA problem, it's that certain other armies have to much ap/damage2/3. 

You pay allot for power armour and the protection it gives ain't amazing. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

25 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Seriously? Have you not looked at him? he’s not just a marine, he has formed artificer armor that is painted gold. 
 

I mean the only difference between him and SG are the wings and mark of the jump pack. 
 

Mephiston looks angelic too, in the vampiric way. Same with Corbulo. And all that goes back to Renaissance styles.

I’m not sure how Mephiston looks angelic in a vampiric way…I have no idea what that means…

 

for the most part it seems you’re associating the gold color with angelic-ness.

 

indefinitely don’t see how corbulo is any more angelic than any other helmetless marine.

 

as for Dante and the SG, yes the wings make a big difference between a normal person (or astartes in this case) and an angel, since an angel is typically just a conventionally good looking person with white feathery wings.

many people have converted SG with demon/bat styled wings and they no longer look very angelic(unless we’re talking from a very specific Judeo-Christian perspective that demons are fallen angels.)

 

im not here to change your mind, just pointing out that there’s plenty of big bulky non-sleek units closely associated with the BA including the SR that was originally faction locked to us and GK.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

30 minutes ago, Toldavf said:

I don't think its a BA problem, it's that certain other armies have to much ap/damage2/3. 

You pay allot for power armour and the protection it gives ain't amazing. 

My thinking is just that we fill a melee niche, but honestly compared to a lot of other melee armies we seem severely lacking.

like sure in melee we’ll trounce a faction that isn’t melee oriented, but against anything khorne we seem to be far behind(sure khorne stuff should be a bit better in melee, but I don’t think we should feel as far behind as we do imo)

 

to me it feels like GW said “we’ll give them a lot access to JPs and a few special units that have kinda slightly improved power weapons, and that should be melee enough”

 

BGV and SG have the same number of attacks, and their swords are very similar, but BGVs will probably win in combat against SG because of their shields and having an extra wound.

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

many people have converted SG with demon/bat styled wings and they no longer look very angelic(unless we’re talking from a very specific Judeo-Christian perspective that demons are fallen angels.)

I swear it is like you don’t understand the BA at all.

 

Yes, it is from a Judeo-Christian perspective. The entire setting is. It’s a parody of it. The Bat Wings don’t even have to be explained that way because it emphasizes the vampiric nature of the BA.

 

No, gold isn’t associated with angels.

 

However, the entire chapter is themed around Renaissance style themes. You have golden Dante, who has been through, armed with the Inferno Pistol (Get it, Dante’s Inferno, the first part of the Divine Comedy?) named the Perdition Pistol (another name for hell). You have Mephiston, who is the most vampiric character, named after a fallen Angel, armored in the 1990’s Dracula’s armor. He has a power where he can literally sprout wings, and used to have a special rule call Transfixing Gaze. 
 

We have the Blood Chalice, in which people drink the Blood of their great martyr, as part of a communion rite in which they become Blood Angels and share in the likeness of their primarch (communion and Theosis in Catholic theology). 
 

We have Tycho, named after a renaissance scientist, armored the same way as Dante, with the same artificer gear, and known to be incredibly beautiful (like an angel).

 

Beauty is the thing of the Blood Angels, twisted or not. Angelic is meaning beauty in this case. All of the above have some form of that beauty. Gravis do not.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

52 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I swear it is like you don’t understand the BA at all.

 

Yes, it is from a Judeo-Christian perspective. The entire setting is. It’s a parody of it. The Bat Wings don’t even have to be explained that way because it emphasizes the vampiric nature of the BA.

 

No, gold isn’t associated with angels.

 

However, the entire chapter is themed around Renaissance style themes. You have golden Dante, who has been through, armed with the Inferno Pistol (Get it, Dante’s Inferno, the first part of the Divine Comedy?) named the Perdition Pistol (another name for hell). You have Mephiston, who is the most vampiric character, named after a fallen Angel, armored in the 1990’s Dracula’s armor. He has a power where he can literally sprout wings, and used to have a special rule call Transfixing Gaze. 
 

We have the Blood Chalice, in which people drink the Blood of their great martyr, as part of a communion rite in which they become Blood Angels and share in the likeness of their primarch (communion and Theosis in Catholic theology). 
 

We have Tycho, named after a renaissance scientist, armored the same way as Dante, with the same artificer gear, and known to be incredibly beautiful (like an angel).

 

Beauty is the thing of the Blood Angels, twisted or not. Angelic is meaning beauty in this case. All of the above have some form of that beauty. Gravis do not.

Again the references to Dante’s inferno has nothing to do with angels.

vampires have nothing to do with angels.

all BA Libbys can use wings of sanguinius.

renniasciance has little to nothing to do with angels, aside from Italians at that time were Christians and believed in angels.

 

again though there’s nothing angelic about dante, Corbulo, or Mephiston. Mephiston is named after a fallen angel, aka a demon, that would make him demonic, likewise his vampiric inspirations would make him demonic as the Christian world views vampires as demonic.

 

Ok so you meant beauty when you said angelic, that’s a very different and very subjective thing.

i think gravis armor as absolutely beautiful as is, it would be even more so if they added the BA artistic bent to it.

 

as was pointed out to me a few years ago, artificer armor doesn’t mean armor with musculature carved into it. It is just standard power armor made to a higher quality. There’s absolutely no reason we can’t have gravis artificer armor that is equally decorated as tycho’s armor, or Dante’s or that of the SG.

 

the only thing you’ve said that disqualifies gravis armor from being bliss angely is your subjective opinion that it’s not beautiful enough.

[Arkangilos]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

vampires as demonic

Demonic are still angels, bro.

 

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Ok so you meant beauty when you said angelic, that’s a very different and very subjective thing.

Actually beauty is not subjective. There is a mathematical element to it. It is universally agreed, for instance, that symmetry is viewed as beautiful where asymmetry is associated with ugliness. This is a long topic, but needless to say “beauty is subjective” is modernist nonsense. Taste is subjective, beauty is objective.

 

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

as was pointed out to me a few years ago, artificer armor doesn’t mean armor with musculature carved into it.

And no one said otherwise. However, in the case of BA, their artificer armor is usually designed like Dante’s. 
 

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

the only thing you’ve said that disqualifies gravis armor from being bliss angely is your subjective opinion that it’s not beautiful enough.

Well no duh. You gave your opinion that we should have a Gravis unit, and I gave my opinion which is that it doesn’t fit the aesthetics of the chapter. It doesn’t. 
 

Besides, we already have more special units than almost everyone else in the SM realm. 
Salamanders? Iron Hands? UM? Nothing.

We have DC, SG, Baal Predators, Furioso Dreadnaughts, Sanguinary High Priests, DC Character Upgrades, and DC Primaris.

 

I would rather those units get better than an ugly (objectively speaking) unit of Gravis that don’t fit the profile for BA’s just because you think they’d be cool.

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Again the references to Dante’s inferno has nothing to do with angels.

vampires have nothing to do with angels.

all BA Libbys can use wings of sanguinius.

renniasciance has little to nothing to do with angels, aside from Italians at that time were Christians and believed in angels.

Bro… the spiritual aspect of renaissance art and the parallels with BA and BA stuff. Again, you are just clueless. 
Considering you already admitted you don’t read any of the actual lore, it makes sense. You probably haven’t studied any of the cultural stuff it’s based on either.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:29 AM, Reskin said:

They just won the largest 40k tournament in the US. Hello?? 

Looks like we’re sitting at a 45% win rate so I’d say there’s still room for some buffs.