Rogal dorn is it worth it?

[TCC]

T9 makes a massive difference against meltas etc

[Emperor Ming]

I would rather have 4 russ's any day

 

4 is more firepower, more models, more wounds, more board presence, more obj capturing potential

 

The dorns only really have t9, which isn't that grt depending on what you get hit by

 

Unless they get cheaper, its a unit I wont be considering. 

[Hiroitchi]

So I’m a bit biased here since I love tanks in general. I love the Rogal dorn tank and to be fair yes alot of the previous members have voiced their views on such a new guard vehicle. I could not help but chime in with them since they make solid points.

 

The Russ vs Dorn talk is really dependent on what you are using it for. I have since instances where I would loose up to 3 Leman Russ tanks a turn and the Rogal dorn being taken out in two turns. For the price of 1x3 Russ squadron is close to the same point value of 2x barebones Dorns, just about 5-15 or so difference in points. 
 

Here is my two scents for 3x Russ vs 2x Rogal Dorns as pound for pound base line analysis without  sponsons.

Board Presence: Russ Wins

 

In comparison they have a 2+ save but Russ is T8 vs a Rogal Dorn T9 (good as there are a lot of S8 weapons. = Dorn wins

Overall Unit  Wound count; 3x Russ(39 wounds vs 2x Rogal Dorn(34 wounds) = Russ Wins

maneuverability: Russ Wins

3x Russ (main weapon, Hull weapon, pintle weapon) is 495pts vs 2x Dorns (main weapon, hull weapon, pintle weapon) is 500 pts 

 

weapons are pretty much math hammer on consistency while using Born soldiers and the Russ wins out due to having another gun but over all average is about the same for 2x Rogal Dorns firing at the same target. So it’s a matter of preference. = Draw

 

what shines here the most between Russ and dorn imho is tank ace upgrades. Dorns benefit it more than the Russ unless you’re going for elite sharpshooters. Other than that = Dorns Wins 

 

In regards to overall Russ=/>Dorn>Baneblade chasis.

 

these models are toolbox units that fill a certain niche in your army/collection to try and bridge the gap.  If you are stuck in a rock in a hard place on which is better, well that’s the age old conundrum of having options, which is better? Well I’m not one to tell you, but play what’s cool to you. The rules will catch up for the better.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Hiroitchi

[Tokugawa]

7 hours ago, sairence said:

 

That's a nice list for sure. I'm not super convinced that 2 Dorns is better than the 4 Russes you'd get for the same price...but then I haven't played with them yet and I haven't won any GTs. 

A very barebone Russ is 155pts, typical "keep it cheap" configuration could be 165pts(only buy heavy bolters sponson). So the cost is more close to 1.5:1, not 2:1.

[sairence]

Maybe. I run my Russes pretty barebones, only armoured tracks as upgrades. Sponsons only if there's nothing else to spend points on.

 

So 2 cost me 320p...that's just 25-30p more than the loadout that player ran on his Dorns. But as I said, I might change my mind on them when I get my hands on them. Probably won't be for a while, storage space is becoming a bit scarce. :P

[dees]

For what its worth I love the new Dorn tank and as a collector its a must have for me.  In terms of gameplay the flexibility of having two or more Russes (I always have three) on the board vs one Dorn is kind of a no brainer if competitive play is your thing.  

[Malakithe]

Russes are more points friendly for board coverage for sure but the Dorn has one of the only multi-shot dmg 4 weapons outside of Baneblades. While looking at my list I decided to add a single Dorn into my groupings of Russes. I think having just 1 is a good spot that allows you to add in plenty of Russes along side it.

[Karhedron]

I still think T9 should not be underestimated. While it makes no difference vs big anti-tank weapons, a lot of races rely on S8/9 for anti-tank work. Primaris Marines in particularly don't have a lot of answers to T9 as even Multimeltas and Eradicators need a 5+ to actually wound.

[The Pounder]

Personally, I’m loving my Rogal Dorn!

 

As other wiser people have said the T9 really goes a long way to keep it on the board for longer.

 

The Oppressor Cannon is a fantastic all rounder so I’ll definitely always be fielding it!

 

I played Eldar the other day and they just couldn’t deal with the tanks!

 

I remember the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth when the Rogal Dorn was announced, how the Leman Russ would be outshone. I think GW have got the balance about right!

 

If anything the Dorn could potentially be considered overpriced!

 

Like I said, love the model, love the rules!!

[Tokugawa]

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/event/4x6PUbiwK7?active_tab=placings

 

An IG player with 3 Dorns got top4 in 257 players Cherokee Open(biggest event since ark version).

 

 

Argument like "Dorn is unplayable in competitive" or "Dorn is just weaker than Russ" could go to end.

[TCC]

Thought I’d share my real work experience of this tank.

I have played quite a few competitive games now with my Dorn and within our league matches. It’s powerful tank that has helped me achieve a lot. Dorn and a Russ next to each other in one game - Dorn took a load of shots and bracketed it, the Russ took a few shots and died. I do find it’s durability to be very helpful in all games - last night I pushed it right up on the deployment line to get line of sight and take the hits from the melee that was coming next turn. It took a beating and did die T1 but the only other thing they shot at was a troop of Kasrkin. So in one turn I soaked up all the shooting and melee with this tank, it also destroyed a full unit of 5 space marine bikes with the main gun (and then another full squad of 3 with vengeful salute) and the 4 damage was very helpful due to the feel no pain roles.

 

It will be staying in my list for the foreseeable. 

 

 

[Captain Caine 24th]

So that Cherokee Open list is wild. 3x kasrkin, 3x sentinels, 3x mortars, 3x, dorns. Am I missing a page? Where's the infantry to hold points. An eye opener, I'm going to have to think about it for a while. And among other things, it means I'm vastly underestimating the firepower on 3 Dorns. 

 

Brainstorming & Vignettes: 

Just for argument's sake, let's look at the Dorn's potential- not even so much to win, but to prevent catastrophic loss. So the main strategy to win might be using leontis with a Dorn and several other units to break the enemy while you violently score primary and secondaries. But, since no plan survives enemy contact, it may be worth another look at a plan B, C, and D. 

 

Grim Demeanour & Acceptable Losses Strat: I know Born Soldiers is the standard doctrine and for good reason. But, take for example, a Custodes shield captain, Vertus praetors, or some such fast hyper-durable melee units getting into your lines (similar dilemmas may arise with orks, tyranids, space marines, etc.). Maneuver room/Deployment space is limited because you've got (1) terrain and objectives guiding where you want to be; (2) lots of screening infantry in the way, (3) lines of sight as the enemy is going to reach you no later than Turn 2 (not good), and (3) you want be close enough to give/receive orders among your lemans to maximize damage. In the case of custodes we can imagine a torrent of hurricane bolter fire ripping into some squads and a multi-charge into some screening units. Now the Custodes are in your lines. With warlord traits and strats, there could be pile-in/consolidation shenanigans 4"-7". There may not be space to fall back. They may tie up additional units to avoid your shooting phase. They may consolidate into new units. A leman russ might still be able to shoot, which is nice, but melee isn't great.

 

The acceptable losses strat allows one unit to shoot into combat. But in the combat, there must be a friendly platoon or grim demeanour unit. Shooting into platoon units is fine, who cares if they die valiantly? But would it be worth it to take grim demeanour to have more defensive options if the enemy gets into your tanks? In some sense, if any single unit can shoot into combat it probably should be a very powerful unit. On the downside, you may lose the leman to friendly fire. No rerolls allowed. But killing whatever is there right now might prevent another consolidation into another tank... and another... and onto an objective... the list goes on. Mobility of the Dorn and Leontis allow a sort of quick reaction force to plug in solutions at a good distance. 

 

Blitz Division: Again I've sacrificed what feels like a 10-20% boost in shooting by not taking born soldiers. Again, probably not a good idea. But, take a recent disaster of a game I had against sisters with a knight errant. Lots of anti-tank reaching just about anything on the board on T1, and lots of re-rolls. Should I stay on the table and pray the emperor protects? Or, is there a better play than getting punched in the face (even with T9). With something like Master Tactician getting a redeploy for 3 units is very nice. If melta can touch everyone on the table, maybe not being on the table is the right answer. But Blitz division is very cool because for vehicles you can treat strategic reserves as T3 on T2 - much more flexibility in where you can go. 

[TCC]

Infantry don’t hold objectives well from what I have found - one turn of enemy fire and they get taken out meaning no scoring VP in your turn, infantry can stop someone from scoring an objective with objective secured. I find putting and tank on the objective has more effect than infantry so my current meta lists only have three troops choices for objectives at the end of the game - turns 4/5 when the enemy has been depleted. Kasrkin get used earlier to deny objectives and deal damage but I fully expect them to be destroyed.

[sairence]

Yeah, I'm running very limited infantry myself currently, while using tanks or other units for board control. Running two blobs of Bullgryns for that purpose tonight actually. As TCC said, the troops just rarely last until the start of my next turn if they're anywhere in the open, unless you overwhelm an objective. And with orders giving the option for obsec on demand for basically anyone, it doesn't actually feel like a big issue most of the time.

 

As for Grim Demeanor, it's an interesting choice for sure. I tried it once so far, Russes at the front with Scions as sweepers to clear anything attaching itself to the hull...but then I played against T'au and it was all kinda useless because they didn't charge me. So I'm doubtful on it for events with multiple games, especially since our tanks aren't going to get fully tied up.

Edited March 1, 2023 by sairence

[jarms48]

Honestly. With how expensive infantry and officers are right now, I'm tempted to go full tank company again. Armoured Doctrine and TC's Obsec can do primaries just fine. 

[sairence]

1 hour ago, jarms48 said:

Honestly. With how expensive infantry and officers are right now, I'm tempted to go full tank company again. Armoured Doctrine and TC's Obsec can do primaries just fine. 

 

Your main issue with that army is getting move-blocked and kept away from primaries. It's very easy to outmaneuver and throw chaff in the way, and suddenly your 12"+D6 advance + shoot turns into a 2" crawl and a 1" charge to make any ground. Definitely viable, but comes with its own problems.

[Xenith]

On 2/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

it’s worth it if you like it.

 

This is the main thing. If you like the look of the tank, think it's cool and want one, then it's worth it. Often memorable and fun games are decided by whose units underperform the most. Like the dreadnought that cannot hit anything.