On the Origin of the Black Rage (Pre-Death or Not)

[Arkangilos]

Greetings!

 

In this thread over here

In this thread I would like to open the discussion specifically to the Black Rage, because I believe there are misunderstandings. I will make a case for my position here, and of course am open to conversation. The sources I will use for this post will be Angels Blade, the most recent Blood Angels supplement, and Sanguinius: The Great Angel. If I can manage to find my copy of Fear to Tread, I may make follow ups (because I know some will mention it, even though it is older than Malevolence and Sanguinius: The Great Angel). I may also later on cite Dante and Devastation of Baal, but for now I will stick to these. I will stick to the objections received, and if you feel I have misrepresented the objections, you are welcome to refine them!

 

Question: Did the Black Rage exist Prior to the Death of Sanguinius?

 

Objection 1: It would seem that the Black Rage existed prior to the Death of Sanguinius because the Battle of Signus involved them falling into a “Rage” at the falling of Sanguinius.

Objection 2: It would seem that the Black Rage existed prior to the Death of Sanguinius because the Cawl said that it was designed into their geneseed.

Objection 3: It would seem that the Black Rage existed prior to the Death of Sanguinius because Sanguinius himself suffered from a rage at a vision where he fought Horus, and displayed the symptoms of those that fell.

Objection 4: It would seem that the Black Rage existed prior to the Death of Sanguinius because Sanguinius had a special unit dedicated to hunting down those who had fallen to a “rage” and therefore it goes to reason that this rage is in fact the Black Rage.

 

On the contrary, the death of Sanguinius has always been held to be the start of the Black Rage, as can be proven from the unchanging lore in 40k, and the newer lore provided by Malevolence. Of the Black Rage, it is said that “Sanguinius’ experiences are encoded into their gene-seed, and no memory is more powerful than that of his last titatic duel…” (BA Supplement, p 10). In every lore description, they are consumed by the memory, with a notable one being in Angel’s Blade, page 18.

I say that the Rage described in the Heresy is in fact nothing more than the Red Thirst, meeting the description of those who fall to it completely, but before the mutations are complete. For the Red Thirst is described as, “a Destructive yearning, a blood hunger that haunts their every waking moment and aches to be unleashed without restraint, but must be held at bay… To succumb to it is a mark of shame… unleashed only when victory can be achieved with ferocious savagery” (Blood Angels supplement, p 10).

 

Reply to Obj. 1: The Battle of Signus involved the forces of Chaos trying to seduce Sanguinius using the flaw that was revealed by Horus to the enemy. To do so they cast a spell that heightened any feelings and destructive yearnings held by the Blood Angels, so that Sanguinius would willingly join the enemy to cure them. This played on the Flaw, which at that time was the yearning for blood. When Sanguinius was wounded, the warriors did not picture themselves as Sanguinius fighting the daemon, but became mindless beasts hungering for destruction and Blood (Malevolence, pg. 64). Those whose wills were stronger and recited litanies already developed by the BA were able to resist (64-69). Further, it is written, “Lost in a dream of blood and death, the Blood Angels gave no thought to the strength of the foe or the height of the fortifications”. This meets the description of the Red Thrist, as mentioned above (BAS, p. 10), and not the Black Rage, which involves memories. Therefore, the Battle of Signus, while described as a rage, is in fact the Red Thirst.

 

Reply to Obj. 2: Cawl did not say that the Black Rage was cured, but the Red Thirst, as prior to the supplement, even Primaris would benefit from the Red Thirst rule, but none could be in the Death Company. However, in the BAS, it says the following, “Every Blood Angel felt their hopes dashed when the first of the Primaris… fell to the Black Rage. With great solemnity were these brothers inducted into the Death Company” (BAS p. 75), and “It was hoped that the arrival of the Primaris Space Marines would be the prove to be their salvation from the Flaw. This hope was a false one, as many of this new breed… have already been inducted into the Death Company” (p. 11).

 

Reply to Obj. 3: On the grounds that he displayed physical qualities of the rage, it can also be said he displayed physical qualities of the Thirst. As it is said in Sanguinius: The Great Angel,

Spoiler

“A small chamber was revealed on the other side… stood eight stone columns, each one coming up to chest level. On the square capitals stood more bronze busts much like the one on the main chamber. I walked down the line, inspecting them. Each of them was of Aleon… These were a series. The first  one looked similar to the one I had already seen, though with a different expression, one of anger… Then they changed… the anger amplified, the lips twisted, the eyes bulged. These ones were more than battle fury, they were some kind of frenzy. The fifth bust had beautifully rendered froth bubbles at the corner of the mouth. The sixth had exposed fangs. Pupilless eyes, a gaping jaw line… The last one was almost impossible to look at. It was horrible. What had remained of the human facial order had been almost entirely rearranged, a study in berserk abandon… The eyes were virtually popping out of the sockets, the skin withdrawn…

 (Sanguinius, Chapter 13, around 13 minutes in). The various levels fit the description of those who fall into the thirst at various points. Sanguinius, who we know suffered from the thirst, could have also fallen into one of those levels while he saw himself fighting Horus. Further, we know from the same book that Aleon went missing on the same mission that involved the main character found a corpse drained of blood, after he heard a howl.

 

Reply to Obj 4. Much like the above reply, every time we see the Ofanim used is after bodies are discovered drained of blood, and they are watching for those who succumb. In the above story, they are used

Spoiler

to kill Aleon.

I believe this will be enough to start the conversation and move to refining the arguments on both sides. Needless to say, the Black Rage has never been described pre-heresy explicitly, and every implicit description better matches the description of the Red Thirst.

 

@Inquisitor_Lensoven If I have missed anything, let me know. It's after a long workday for me and these (I believe) were the biggest hot points. When we were discussing it I didn't have anything at hand.

[lansalt]

The difference is that BA under the Red Thirst have always become angry vampires until they become satiated (at least for a while), while the Black Rage delirium is terminal and the poor BA who fall into it never come back (with the exception of Mephiston, of course).

Sanguinius purging his sons that weren't are to resist the Red Thirst in no way makes it the same as the Black Rage later after his death. A marine under the Black Rage can fall also into the Thirst, but in many cases it doesn't or the Death Company couldn't function at all.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The thirst is a desire to consume blood.

it was not the red thirst they fell to at signus. It was clearly stated that they became enraged, and fell to a dark rage.

 

If there’s a spell, the spell could trigger the rage, that doesn’t take away the fact that it was the rage.

 

it’s obviously not exactly the same as the post death rage, but it’s clearly linked/related. 
trauma creates a psychic backlash, sending the sons of sanguinius into a raging fury.

[Arkangilos]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The thirst is a desire to consume blood.

it was not the red thirst they fell to at signus. It was clearly stated that they became enraged, and fell to a dark rage.

 

If there’s a spell, the spell could trigger the rage, that doesn’t take away the fact that it was the rage.

 

it’s obviously not exactly the same as the post death rage, but it’s clearly linked/related. 
trauma creates a psychic backlash, sending the sons of sanguinius into a raging fury.

Out of curiosity, did you read the actual response? And did you read either the actual book Fear to Tread or Malevolence? 

[Djangomatic82]

I'm not going to wade into the issue of if it was the black rage or not the BA fell too during the battle of Signus, its a little too splitting of hairs for my taste, but i believe it is pretty clear from the Kano's vision inside of Sanguinius's mind, of the angel snared in red and black threads, that the Black Rage exists at that time, simply lying dormant.

[Arkangilos]

25 minutes ago, Djangomatic82 said:

Black Rage exists at that time, simply lying dormant.

How so? If the Black Rage is the genetic memory of a battle that hasn’t happened, as I showed, how did it exist within the BA legion? 
 

People keep using the words “Black Rage” while ignoring the actual definition of the word.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[jaxom]

Huh, mod-locked by the time I got back. I'm not going to re-type everything, here are the links to the related comments.

 

 

I don't really have anything to add that I didn't in the old thread except a response to a request for sources about Crusade High Command knowing about the Red Thirst and to clarify a point. Sources are Malevolence, Fear to Tread, Valdor: Birth of the Imperium, Echoes of Eternity, and Sanguinius: The Great Angel. Crusade High Command refers to the mortal generals who worked with the nascent legions prior to the discovery of the Primarchs. Many of them were in the Emperor's inner circle and were quite aware of what they were fighting alongside. Sanguinius and others (like the Remembrancer bookends The Great Angel) pushed a hard narrative that his presence/gene samples fixed the problem. Sanguinius believed only his legion and Horus knew that members of the 9th still succumbed to the Thirst.

 

For those who don't want to read through the original thread, here's the short version of my perspective.

11 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Question: Did the Black Rage exist Prior to the Death of Sanguinius?

No, the Black Rage did not exist prior to the death of Sanguinius. However, I think there was something in the psyche of the Sanguinius and his sons - separate and distinct from the Thirst - that was the foundation for what we now call the Black Rage; the Rage did not spring into existence ex nihilo at Sanguinius' death.

 

EDIT: Oh snap, and my first sentence was about the other mod-lock, and this got mod-locked while I was typing the post.

Edited February 5, 2023 by jaxom

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

I don't really have anything to add that I didn't in the old thread except a response to a request for sources about Crusade High Command knowing about the Red Thirst and to clarify a point. Sources are Malevolence, Fear to Tread, Valdor: Birth of the Imperium, Echoes of Eternity, and Sanguinius: The Great Angel. Crusade High Command refers to the mortal generals who worked with the nascent legions prior to the discovery of the Primarchs. Many of them were in the Emperor's inner circle and were quite aware of what they were fighting alongside. Sanguinius and others (like the Remembrancer bookends The Great Angel) pushed a hard narrative that his presence/gene samples fixed the problem. Sanguinius believed only his legion and Horus knew that members of the 9th still succumbed to the Thirst.

To my recollection, Malevolence doesn’t say that they knew of the thirst or any other problem, just that they knew they were savage. I thought Malevolence makes it clear that Sanguinius and Horus were the only ones that knew (and the Emperor). Can you provide a direct quote?
 

I will find the quotes on my end when I get home, but it has literally always been said no one knew. The other source you provided (Sanguinius: The Great Angel) certainly does not say high command knew. It was specifically said in there no one knew except the ones he was interacting with. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

17 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If there’s a spell, the spell could trigger the rage, that doesn’t take away the fact that it was the rage.

The spell was literally to make the thirst worse. 
From Malevolence, page 38, “Yet Horus, and those of his Dark Allies that he had revealed this secret to, now intended to turn both the Legion’s pride and this hidden flaw against them… Erebus of the Word Bearers planned to make use of its influence, magnified by the Warp-Magicks at work in the Signus System…”

 

The flaw was described in an above paragraph on the same page, “a creeping degeneracy brought on by extreme trauma or exposure to toxic conditions that induced a state that allowed the afflicted to survive even the most crippling wounds or conditions, but also kindled within them a mindless rage and lust for blood.” 
 

That, as I described above, is the definition of the Red Thirst. Not the Rage.

 

10 hours ago, jaxom said:

Sources are Malevolence

I will grant that there were some who knew, however Malevolence says on page 38, “Horus was one of the few souls outside of the Blood Angels Legion to know of this flaw.”

 

As I read through the legion section, I have not yet (but I could just be missing it) seen indication High Command knew about the flaw. 
They certainly knew of the effects of it, but they didn’t seem to put it down as anything other than barbaric cultural practices. 

Sanguinius: The Great Angel does, however, lend more credence to you, but I would say that I agree if you severely limit who you consider to be High Command.

[jaxom]

Malevolence quotes 

 

p. 115

Quote

'They call themselves angels, the dregs of a thousand hells raised up and given shining armour, bright swords and masks of fair and elegant form. Yet I wonder, have they worn those masks so long that they forget wht it is that waits beneath, that monstrous aspect that yet earns to be set free'

Attr. Marlehck Brandt, Remembrancer attached IXth Legion 811.M30 - 848.M30

^ refers to the transition from the Revenant Legion to the Blood Angels, as Sanguinius was not found until circa 848 (Goulding confirmed he was found after the Lion and one of the Lion's first actions with the 1st Legion was Sarosh in 848). Note how the Remembrancer was removed from the Legion at the same time; transferred or disappeared, we'll never know.

 

p. 116

Quote

The Blood Angels struggled against the fate written into their very genes, defied the role the Emperor chose for them and dared to believe they could transcend the darkness that followed them.

^the overactive omophagea inherent in the gene-seed.

 

p. 117

Quote

Even as their ranks swelled, the dark rumours that followed them grew as well, for the Emperor's legacy had endowed them with other, darker, gifts. These gifts were also to grant them a new epithet among the rank and file of the Emperor's mortal armies, the Eaters of the Dead....

For this too was part of the Emperor's grand design, for through the augmentations that had transformed them, the IXth Legion stole their enemy's power from them, absorbing their knowledge and skill and making it their own.

^The Unification Wars and early Great Crusade had a lot more mortal armies supplemented by Astartes and Astartes under the control of mortal generals. Enough so that the mortals are inimitably aware of their psychologies and operational methods. The mortals are the one making the early commentaries and epithets (IVth legion 'Corpse-Grinders' is another example of this). From the very beginning, the IXth was harshly judged by those who did not understand their purpose. It's a real slap in the face when Rogal "I will literally do whatever the Emperor tells me to do" Dorn is chewing you out for fulfilling your Emperor-given purpose.

 

p. 120

Quote

The hunger remained, a shackled beast, that lurked ever ready at the edge of madness, waiting for the change to be set free once again, but by the faith of their Primarch they had a firm hold of its fetters... As time passed and the Blood Angels past slipped from the memories of those they fought alongside, the blood hunger became little more than a myth, a half-remembered story of ancient ghouls once bond in service to the Emperor. Those few among the Legion that succumbed once more to its thirst or to the black fury that followed on its heels were quietly concealed, granted the Emperor's peace or sealed away on Baal.

^'nuff said

 

p. 123

Quote

The aberrant quirks of the [Revenant] Legion, the red thirst that haunted its warriors, wreaked havoc on its discipline and made any attempt at large scale organisation difficult....

...it was a matter of tacit complicity among the various generals and commanders that fought alongside the IXth Legion that it was to be allowed to operate in a manner of its own choosing.

^again, mortal generals and Crusade Command knew about what was going on with the IXth Legion and its literally referred to as "the  red thirst".

 

p. 133

Quote

A diary later recovered from the equipment of a missing officer of the Veradan Regulars refers to the IXth as 'Charnel Feast', a cognomen which, when later disseminated, became popular among the rank and file soldiery of the Great Crusade before it was squashed by the coming of Sanguinius. 

^someone high enough to be part of the Ky0Buran after-action review (i.e. with more ranking than the newly discovered Dorn who ordered all traces of the conflict erased) told enough people that common soldiers were using the cognomen. Once again, it's Sanguinius who actively suppresses it.

[Arkangilos]

Thanks!

 

A couple of replies but otherwise you have convinced me.

 

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

As time passed and the Blood Angels past slipped

Doesn’t mean that they knew the blood angels had a genetic flaw, just that they had a cultural flaw.

 

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Even as their ranks swelled, the dark rumours that followed them grew as well, for the Emperor's legacy had endowed them with other, darker, gifts. These gifts were also to grant them a new epithet among the rank and file of the Emperor's mortal armies, the Eaters of the Dead....

This actually proves they didn’t know what was wrong with them. If they had knowledge of the flaw, it wouldn’t be rumors.

 

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

The Blood Angels struggled against the fate written into their very genes, defied the role the Emperor chose for them and dared to believe they could transcend the darkness that followed them.

Again, the Emperor knew, but that doesn’t mean the mortals knew;m. What is clear is that the mortals knew something was wrong, but they didn’t know it was a genetic issue.

 

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

'They call themselves angels, the dregs of a thousand hells raised up and given shining armour, bright swords and masks of fair and elegant form. Yet I wonder, have they worn those masks so long that they forget wht it is that waits beneath, that monstrous aspect that yet earns to be set free'

Attr. Marlehck Brandt, Remembrancer attached IXth Legion 811.M30 - 848.M30

This is solid, though.

 

Everything else relates to what I had said about the thirst, though. So I think we were agreeing that the thirst is the result of the gene seed, particularly the over active organ. I mean that wasn’t in dispute. I was merely saying I doubt the entire high command knew about it.

 

Its the difference between, “These guys have a reputation for being blood thirsty monsters” and “I know exactly why they are. They have genetic coding issues that causes them to slip into blood madness.”

 

In both cases they have a reputation, but the former is what most high command has. The latter is what the Emperor, Sanguinius, and Horus have. The former can be forgotten, the latter cannot. 
 

One is a flaw in discipline, the other is a permanent flaw. I don’t believe that the permanent flaw was known to anyone other than Horus, Sanguinius, the Emperor, and the Emperor’s inner, inner circle.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

To my recollection, Malevolence doesn’t say that they knew of the thirst or any other problem, just that they knew they were savage. I thought Malevolence makes it clear that Sanguinius and Horus were the only ones that knew (and the Emperor). Can you provide a direct quote?
 

I will find the quotes on my end when I get home, but it has literally always been said no one knew. The other source you provided (Sanguinius: The Great Angel) certainly does not say high command knew. It was specifically said in there no one knew except the ones he was interacting with. 

This is how I am using the term black rage.

any rage that takes over any of sanguinius’ sons as a result of trauma to their gene father.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If you look at it through your myopic view, no what modern(in universe) blood angels call the black rage did not exist.

 

if we view it from a wider angle it is very clear that a rage induced in the blood angels as a result of trauma to their gene father, it’s quite clear it existed before sanguinius died. 
 

the red thirst is not a rage. There’s a difference between being enraged, and ravenous. The thirst makes people ravenous. The rage makes them ragey.

 

 

[Arkangilos]

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If you look at it through your myopic view, no what modern(in universe) blood angels call the black rage did not exist.

My "myopic view" is the actual objective view of the lore.

 

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

if we view it from a wider angle it is very clear that a rage induced in the blood angels as a result of trauma to their gene father, it’s quite clear it existed before sanguinius died. 

Citation needed.

 

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

This is how I am using the term black rage.

any rage that takes over any of sanguinius’ sons as a result of trauma to their gene father.

So not the actual view in the universe, which I provided. Ok, great, at least we acknowledge you aren't using terms correctly and disregarding lore and definitions.

 

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

the red thirst is not a rage. There’s a difference between being enraged, and ravenous. The thirst makes people ravenous. The rage makes them ragey.

 

From the book Malevolence regarding the Red Thirst:

3 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

“a creeping degeneracy brought on by extreme trauma or exposure to toxic conditions that induced a state that allowed the afflicted to survive even the most crippling wounds or conditions, but also kindled within them a mindless rage and lust for blood.”

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[jaxom]

 

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

I was merely saying I doubt the entire high command knew about it.

 

Its the difference between, “These guys have a reputation for being blood thirsty monsters” and “I know exactly why they are. They have genetic coding issues that causes them to slip into blood madness.”

Understandable, unraveling the transition from Unity to Solar Wars to early Great Crusade to middle Great Crusade is an exercise in reading between the lines. Between all the sources I listed I think there's enough to support the idea that the guys in charge of using the Astartes as part of Unity and the Solar War were member's of the Emperor's inner circle and knew what each legion was all about. For example, whoever was in-universe writing the black books had access to their accounts and uses it to fill in early legion history, including the portions about the overactive omophagea. Otherwise, the information in 'The Remembrance' box on p. 117 doesn't make any sense. The author knows the IXth legion omophagea is mutated and was responsible for the Revenant Legion's rites, and that it was the "likely cause for the cravings for flesh and blood... and prior to the mental conditioning and training begun by Sanguinius, these urges took a firm hold on the Legion's character." It does seem like by the time the early Great Crusade is ending a lot of the specifics about the legions were not being propagated. Dorn, for example, receiving the, as you put it, '"These guys have a reputation for being blood thirsty monsters”' version when he inherited the VIIth legion.

 

Edit: Due to the obscured history of the early 31st millenium, I don't think there is a definitive answer as to who knew what. I think it's open to interpretation. The above is merely my interpretation.

Edited February 5, 2023 by jaxom

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Edit: Due to the obscured history of the early 31st millenium, I don't think there is a definitive answer as to who knew what. I think it's open to interpretation. The above is merely my interpretation.

Oh yeah, I’m 100% with you that the highest levels knew it, especially at the beginning. I just don’t think the generals in the expeditions would have known the cause. 

[Cleon]

I'm not going to give citations and exact quotes, because I have no time to unpack and flick through my old books, but I think the issue here is the lore changing over editions.

 

From 2nd to maybe 6th it was very clear - the Red Thirst was something in the gene coding that gave the vampiric element and had always been there, impacting any unit (the chance to unavoidably advance in some edition) and causing them to want to drink blood. Whereas the Black Rage was understood to be a psychic backlash from Sanguinious death which related to the Death Company and the chances of marines falling to a hallucinogenic rage where they'd rip their enemies apart.

 

The Horus Heresey black books and Black Library have muddied the waters on the distinction between the two, to the point that it's possible the rage has always been there, (see Signus) but then at the point of Sanguinous death the focus of the rage shifted and narrowed to visions of that encounter and 10,000 years later, that's all that's remembered as the Black Rage.

[Brother Tyler]

This topic is temporarily closed while we sort out of couple of similar topics that were started earlier. It will be re-opened soon.