Angron the Red Angel

[Nagashsnee]

So discussion for the book . About 1/3 of the way thru and liking it so far.  Exciting to see where it goes. 

 

Spoiler

lt does a good job of showing the post heresy M41 world eaters. How large parts of their number are in fact just any marine who falls to deep the blood god. It shows how some members of the legion hold on to sanity as much as possible and they are the ones in control of the legions major assets. But likewise warriors of great power do draw large numbers of followers even if they are one min away from getting team killed. 

 

Lotara is full on deamonic/part of the ship, a natural conclusion of her choices in the Heresy and what we saw in Echoes. 

 

Some world eaters hate Angron to this day, and frankly i am surprised its not all of them.  But as the force of nature that he is they have to deal with him.

 

One of the POV characters is a fallen member of a BA successor chapter, and his chapters are my favorite.  Tired of his chapter treating blood/killing like a shameful but necessary evil he sought out other paths and eventually met some world eaters. He has been exploring his love of freedom/blood/killing with them but there is a FANTASTIC part when a deamon of Slaanesh makes him a sales pitch and his BA artistic side and the pleasure he gets from blood brought on a full on a crises of faith he never even considered having.  

 

I like how the world eaters welcome all followers of the blood god, and while legion geneseed/veterancy is important it is not held over anyone or ever really remarked upon.  It helps explains how they keep the numbers/assets up, after all once the nails go in they are all brothers.

 

There is also a Grey Knight plot but honestly it has utterly failed to engage me like the other plots have. 

 

Only real complaint and I should know better but i cant help myself is the numbers. The world eaters must lose 10 entire chapters worth of marines to eachother in the span of a month.  And i appreciate its because of  angron but having 100k marines just drop everything and gather in a universe as big (or so they keep telling us) as 40k is a bit jarring.  It should takes decades to gather that many marines scattered around the galaxy and their fleets, even if they all just drop everything and make a run for it.  

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'm about a quarter in and it's good. It's really good. I've always been a fan of Guymer's style, but he's got me absolutely hooked from the start. There's absolutely no flab. Sure, maybe some of these side-plots aren't going to have solid payoffs, but this is sharp, sharp writing. I want to know everything about everyone who's been presented so far, and for a work that's clearly invested in having multiple characters/perspectives, that's a very significant accomplishment. 

 

EDIT: Can I also say it's been way, way too long since we've had the GK be up front for a story? They're usually wandering around in the background or playing c-plot. It's weird to think that I actually missed these guys, but I didn't realise it until I was reading what amount to Imperial Thousand Sons, with all their visions and trinkets and open sorcery. 

 

EDIT 2: I'm done. Great book. Everyone looks great, everybody's competent, and it's very, very grimdark by the end. 

 

My only real complaint is a bit of sluggish pacing around the mid-section where we do a bit of rather unnecessary world-building and stop the story to tell you all about it. I wasn't a big fan of that whole section and the narrative bleeds momentum rather badly, though it does pick back up for a satisfying conclusion.

Edited February 6, 2023 by wecanhaveallthree

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

About halfway in. I am enjoying it more than I expected, even though I liked some of Guymer's previous work and wish that he'd gotten a chance to finish his Iron Hands trilogy. (EDIT: It was more the World Eaters aspect of the narrative that I wasn't thrilled about).

 

I should mention that there are some broad spoilers for the events of this novel in the latest Arks of Omen book. But if the PoV scope remains what it's been so far, it shouldn't affect anyone's reading experience too much to know that events X and Y involving YouKnowWho and WhatsHisName are coming.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Lord Nord

[RedFurioso]

Please explain

Spoiler

Shaska's state... Is he Possessed? I mean, how he got this ability to enlarge his body and grow wings...

 

[aa.logan]

Got copy 808, which I’m disproportionally satisfied by. 
 

It is one of the nicest LEs in a while, I adore the alternative cover and the chapter headings are mighty pleasing too. 
 

Going to curl up with it this afternoon and see whether the contents match.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

On 2/6/2023 at 3:05 AM, Nagashsnee said:

So discussion for the book . About 1/3 of the way thru and liking it so far.  Exciting to see where it goes. 

 

  Hide contents

lt does a good job of showing the post heresy M41 world eaters. How large parts of their number are in fact just any marine who falls to deep the blood god. It shows how some members of the legion hold on to sanity as much as possible and they are the ones in control of the legions major assets. But likewise warriors of great power do draw large numbers of followers even if they are one min away from getting team killed. 

 

Lotara is full on deamonic/part of the ship, a natural conclusion of her choices in the Heresy and what we saw in Echoes. 

 

Some world eaters hate Angron to this day, and frankly i am surprised its not all of them.  But as the force of nature that he is they have to deal with him.

 

One of the POV characters is a fallen member of a BA successor chapter, and his chapters are my favorite.  Tired of his chapter treating blood/killing like a shameful but necessary evil he sought out other paths and eventually met some world eaters. He has been exploring his love of freedom/blood/killing with them but there is a FANTASTIC part when a deamon of Slaanesh makes him a sales pitch and his BA artistic side and the pleasure he gets from blood brought on a full on a crises of faith he never even considered having.  

 

I like how the world eaters welcome all followers of the blood god, and while legion geneseed/veterancy is important it is not held over anyone or ever really remarked upon.  It helps explains how they keep the numbers/assets up, after all once the nails go in they are all brothers.

 

There is also a Grey Knight plot but honestly it has utterly failed to engage me like the other plots have. 

 

Only real complaint and I should know better but i cant help myself is the numbers. The world eaters must lose 10 entire chapters worth of marines to eachother in the span of a month.  And i appreciate its because of  angron but having 100k marines just drop everything and gather in a universe as big (or so they keep telling us) as 40k is a bit jarring.  It should takes decades to gather that many marines scattered around the galaxy and their fleets, even if they all just drop everything and make a run for it.  

 

 

Slaves of Darkness explains your complaint

 

Spoiler

Angron was able to teleport himself, his Legion, Perty and his Legion to Ulanor

 

Angron's banishment durimg Echoes caused his Legion to go crazy. As long as he's around they will do as he says

 

[kamedake88]

Excellent book so far and the audiobook is one of the best I've heard in a long time. Andrew Wincott does a superb job voicing the various characters and the prose and pacing lends itself well to the Audiobook format. Also there is a snippet about the lost legions that we haven't heard directly before.

Edited February 12, 2023 by kamedake88

[StrangerOrders]

Quite a good read so far, I especially like the introduction of the idea of the Brotherhood of Thirteen and it certainly adds an unsettling commonality to alot of current GK characters.

 

It reads a bit heavy at times but it also has a weird sort of levity in some of the PoVs, the possessed guy especially is borderline comedic in his being a literal meme and I mean that in the best way possible.

 

As already noted, the reader in the audiobook does a really good job and I especially like the use of sound effects and the like, although the first time caught me really off-guard. 

[wecanhaveallthree]

The levity really worked for me. The World Eaters are insane. There's no getting around that. And, for the most part, they understand that about themselves and each other, so a lot of their tactics revolve around getting themselves (or someone else) wound up, pointing them in vaguely the right direction and getting out of the way. They can't escape conflict, either internally or externally, and they don't really want to. It's a cast of murderhobos and watching Kossolax attempting to herd cats is just point-blank hilarious - and strangely poignant at times, too. They're broken in every sense of the word, as dangerous to themselves as anybody else around them - but they still yearn for company and kinship, even if they know how it always ends.

 

It was actually something of a subversion, I think, to have the GK be such a concentrated force of malice. They are driven, ruthless, totally dedicated. Their scenes are tense. The characters are so much greater than everything around them. If the WE cast are murderhobos for the most part, the GK are all high-level characters, fully loaded out, hunting the biggest game. Guymer really shows his work in kitting them out. They might be 'just' a baker's dozen of GK gone fishing for a Daemon Primarch - something that is, on the face, well above their ability - but the narrative has them so effectively loaded for bear that it feels entirely plausible.

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

As already noted, the reader in the audiobook does a really good job and I especially like the use of sound effects and the like, although the first time caught me really off-guard. 

 

I tried the sample earlier today and for a moment, I thought they had put up a trailer or audio drama instead of an audiobook. Surprised me as well.

[StrangerOrders]

Finishing the book and there is one theme Guymer brings up that I have seen before in handful of authors that I kind of love with Chaos Marines.

 

Spoiler

Shakas mix of horror and shock when something cuts off chaos and he regains full lucidity is something I really love to see and is similar to the theme we have seen with a few Plague Marines that have been for lack of a better word 'Chaos EMP'd'.

 

It plays into Chaos as a fool's bargain in a really unique way and I like it in the same way its fun to in the same way you occasionally see really evil Imperials die and immediately get eaten by Chaos.

 

There is something to it that I can't really articulate about the ultimately moronic bargain that is Chaos when you really stop to think about it and the fact that you don't really win in this setting when you prioritize yourself and your power because no one ever really gets that. The happy ending in this setting is dying for something you believe in and being satisfied with your death before you get shredded by the warp. 

 

Its sort of weird but it sort of gets you to the conclusion that honestly if you are in 40k, being a Sister of Silence is probably the best life for all that its ironically enough a solitary and horrifying one. And in a weird way, its one of the few that sees being dragged off to be turned into a semi-human abomination as an objective upgrade. You enjoy close kinship with your colleagues (after a life of being hated by everyone), are brutally indoctrinated to believe in what you do wholeheartedly (after being exposed to literally the worst humanity has to offer), Chaos won't get you unless you are remarkably unlucky and your probably brutal death (which, being a Blank, you were going to get anyway) will see your mutated soul just dissipate because Daemons can't really eat what they can't see/perceive/would probably just get poisoned by. No afterlife but thats arguably a blessing.

 

Probably the only people that can die and in their last moments be like 'you know what? I'm satisfied with this' and then just end. 

 

Granted, in most settings that would be the worst possible fate but that is just indicative of 40k.

 

Weirdly philosophical but I sort of enjoy how many ways 40k grapples with death and immediately get drenched in some flavor of karma.

[DarkChaplain]

Pleasantly surprised at the way

 

Lotara Sarrin

 

is introduced here. Very nice tidbit that I didn't expect to pay off so soon.

[Krelious]

I felt kind of dissapointed by the book because it seems like nothing really happens beyond fleshing out the world eaters more and being an entertaining and enlightening story but the Arks of Omen Angron plot contains more important story elements and feels like it should have been a fleshed out sequel to this novel or really it should have been the other way around and the story in Angron should have been the arks of omen story and vice versa.  I think really the story itself was extremely good and brought some very nice philosophical exposition to the nature of chaos, mortal minds, the butchers nails and the whole interplay with all these things and various religious beliefs as well.  I would like to see Angron permanently defeated at some point and given the peace of death, while his design is cool I think the way he is played out now is rather just boring as in a sense he is more soulless and robotic than the Necrons. One of the interesting aspects of the book is showing off how the nails have different effects on different marines because they arent exactly mass produced or properly tuned to the mind and I guess what GW is going for is having raging berserkers in space dedicated to a war god but it kind of gets a bit rediculous to comprehend the feasibility or sustainability of an army of raging lunatics just charging at targets and killing each other all the time, it seems a bit stupid and impractical because space marines arent orks and you just cant grow them. I think we need the direction that Sotholax wants instead of Angron as I think the world eaters would be a credible threat if they had more discipline or better managed brain implants. I think a lucid legion of warrior barbarians with good battle tactics and anger issues would be a lot better than the magical handwaving that occurs in that the world eaters win and have numbers because they are a legion of space marines. Within the setting I think having the Dark Mechanicum/Warpsmiths throw demons into the butchers nails would be a good way of balancing out the world eaters while at the same time damning them even more as I think the demons would have the good sense improving their host's sense of self preservation/brotherhood so they can spill more blood.  

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, Krelious said:

I felt kind of dissapointed by the book because it seems like nothing really happens beyond fleshing out the world eaters more and being an entertaining and enlightening story but the Arks of Omen Angron plot contains more important story elements and feels like it should have been a fleshed out sequel to this novel or really it should have been the other way around and the story in Angron should have been the arks of omen story and vice versa.  I think really the story itself was extremely good and brought some very nice philosophical exposition to the nature of chaos, mortal minds, the butchers nails and the whole interplay with all these things and various religious beliefs as well.  I would like to see Angron permanently defeated at some point and given the peace of death, while his design is cool I think the way he is played out now is rather just boring as in a sense he is more soulless and robotic than the Necrons. One of the interesting aspects of the book is showing off how the nails have different effects on different marines because they arent exactly mass produced or properly tuned to the mind and I guess what GW is going for is having raging berserkers in space dedicated to a war god but it kind of gets a bit rediculous to comprehend the feasibility or sustainability of an army of raging lunatics just charging at targets and killing each other all the time, it seems a bit stupid and impractical because space marines arent orks and you just cant grow them. I think we need the direction that Sotholax wants instead of Angron as I think the world eaters would be a credible threat if they had more discipline or better managed brain implants. I think a lucid legion of warrior barbarians with good battle tactics and anger issues would be a lot better than the magical handwaving that occurs in that the world eaters win and have numbers because they are a legion of space marines. Within the setting I think having the Dark Mechanicum/Warpsmiths throw demons into the butchers nails would be a good way of balancing out the world eaters while at the same time damning them even more as I think the demons would have the good sense improving their host's sense of self preservation/brotherhood so they can spill more blood.  

 

I think the Dark Mechanicum produces new World Eaters as well as Bile so the Legion still has plenty of Angron's genesires in it

 

The Mechanicus can't do it for the Loyalists as much because they are too preoccupied surviving 40k

 

It doesn't help everytime the Traitors steal a Forgeworld for their own use

[Moonreaper666]

Spoiler

Is Kargos Bloodspitter in the book?

 

Aside from the Alpha Legion which other Traitor Legion has the least characters from the HH series alive and present during the 13th BC?

 

[Krelious]

14 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

I think the Dark Mechanicum produces new World Eaters as well as Bile so the Legion still has plenty of Angron's genesires in it

 

The Mechanicus can't do it for the Loyalists as much because they are too preoccupied surviving 40k

 

It doesn't help everytime the Traitors steal a Forgeworld for their own use

 

I would imagine that training and breeding new space marines is a timely and arduous process so the idea of  we are berserkers and die like flies because blood for the blood god seems kind of inane in my eyes. I get the idea they are trying to portray but at this point it feels flanderized and kind of stupid where you have one faction that does that already, the orks, except the orks literally grow on trees. I would like the idea of say a world eaters legion that is more toned down and lucid in its affairs as an extreme warrior/religious cult that is obsessed with finding the best battlefields to pay fealty to their god, regardless of whatever faction they are fighting against, and I think to a degree thats the point of the book as there is a divergence of marines who are more like Kosolax (whatever his name is) and csm forces like Angron or Shaka who will kill their brothers as much as their enemies indiscriminately because they are insane, which is a character point that only goes so far and seems kind of old and tired.  Id like the world eaters to be more like the Word Bearers except they preach with raw strength and killing and maybe they venerate their dead. In the grand scheme of things, Khorne wants more blood and skulls and having a lower turn over rate in his followers would mean he gets more net blood and skulls. I get the idea that all the forces of chaos are insane and deluded in some form or another but the way the world eaters are portrayed seems childish and yet they could be extremely cool and meaningful if they were portrayed slightly differently. 

[Allart01]

The audiobook for this has incredible production value.

 

Unfortunately, I quite struggled through the story - and, to be honest, I get what the author was going for with Angron being less of a character and more of a force of nature, but his almost complete absence from a book with his name on it is borderline absurd. 

I feel all but misled by the marketing for a book titled "Angron" with so little Angron in it.

 

Leidis was cool, though.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Allart01

[Nagashsnee]

5 minutes ago, Allart01 said:

 

Leidis was cool, though.

 

 

He made the whole book for me.

 

Spoiler

He and his serf was a great sub story with a fantastic ending. Felt really sorry for the thrall.

 

[theSpirea]

1 hour ago, Allart01 said:

The audiobook for this has incredible production value.

 

Unfortunately, I quite struggled through the story - and, to be honest, I get what the author was going for with Angron being less of a character and more of a force of nature, but his almost complete absence from a book with his name on it is borderline absurd. 

I feel all but misled by the marketing for a book titled "Angron" with so little Angron in it.

 

Leidis was cool, though.

 

 

Basically the same Guymer did with Kragnos

[Sothalor]

Still looking for a copy to get at some point, but from the sounds of it I like the way Angron is presented here: specifically as a force of nature.

 

I think that's the best way to showcase both the horrendous mutilation Chaos does upon a soul as well as the outsized psychological influence the Primarchs have upon their legions - especially the Chaos ones dedicated to a particular Ruinous Power.

 

That's the whole point and tragedy of Angron as a character: he ultimately ends up as even more of a slave than he ever was under the Nucerians or the Emperor, and he got there in the name of casting off tyrannical shackles. And in a way he doesn't even realize it, being so far gone in the depths of rage.

 

And it's not just that he himself is a broken individual. He played a pivotal role in breaking his sons. I think that's the most interesting dynamic to be explored in a "modern" 40k story - and it sounds like that's just what we got with this one.

[betrayer41]

This book was excellent.  VERY well written. I can however see how it could be a bit....dull if you don't particularly care about WE.  But as a WE fan and player this was excellent.

[Tolmeus]

Finished today. I have a mixed feeling about it, because there is a number of bright sides and evenly disappointing points.

 

What I liked:

-Guymer paid respect or attention to the work of his predecessors. I know that should be a common thing, but it really isn't in my experience with Warhammer novels. Also, Guymer does this is a natural way (again, as it should be). So every time I recognized something from ADB, St. Martin or Reynolds, I felt pleasently satisfied. 

-The way he handles the World Eaters. They are shown in a great variety (Kossolax, Shâka, Leidis) and how they are differently affected by the Nails or motivations. 

-

Spoiler

The revelation of Shâka at the end as one of these rare moments when you get a punishingly deserving moment of a traitor to see all his wrong-doings (nice).

-And in my opinion the Grey Knights were also written quiet aptly. The first chapter and introduction into the story was great to create the atmosphere. And they never seemed overpowered like certain other characters (Talking about Mephiston in any novel).

 

What I disliked

-The plot surrounding Kossolax really reminded me of Dreagher in 'Khârn - Eater of Worlds'. Same ambition, same problems. 

-The middle part of the story. 

Spoiler

The journey on the Conqueror takes too long and during it the whole scene seems to take place in the Hangar.

-

Spoiler

For me it looks like Kossolax isn't really that a Great Warlord of Chaos. He struggles too long over the control of his ship, his crew and his dominion over Angron (it may be an unfair assesment, but that's how I observed him)

-The waste of World Eaters. I get that they are mostly a mindless butchering horde. But they gat wasted in numbers in this book that makes it look a bit ridiculous to conceive that there are still always more.

-

Spoiler

And finally, the absence of the title-giver. I read the afterword of Guymer and get his approach to write about Angron more like a natural phenomenem instead of a protaganist. Nevertheless, although I understand it I do not have to like it. French, Abnett and ADB also made it happen. To have him acting as character as such an side character is disappointing. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Tolmeus

[aa.logan]

I enjoyed this an awful lot. 

Ian St Martin retains the honour of having written the best book called ‘Angron’, but this is a very close second. 
 

I liked a lot of the little details- hammering items into mutated armour as the mag-lock no longer works being a particular favourite- and the World Eater convert was a wonderful character.

 

[Felix Antipodes]

I finally got to his one after deciding to do a massive reread of the previous WE stuff from ADB, Reynolds & St Martin.  Exhausting but rewarding.  The Red Angel was a worthy addition to this list and I enjoyed it immensely.  It was the sort of mix of action and lore that I love and Guymer is a good writer when on song, as he is here.

I did feel it lost a bit of momentum around the middle but he brought it back on track by the finale imho.  Even though it was made plain that at least half of the Astartes drawn to Angron were renegades/non-WEs, I was also unconvinced by the numbers given.  I put this down to them finally getting their own codex, so GW/BL wanted to make them seem a formidable force within the ranks of Chaos.

These are minor quibbles though.  There was a lot more right than wrong by a large margin.

[grailkeeper]

I got this book on the strengths of this thread. I wasn't blown away by it. There's nothing I can particularly point to but this one was not for me.