Angron the Red Angel

[aa.logan]

Just been thinking of how much this shares thematically with Harrowmaster- both books show how the quirks of each legion allow them to continue operating, recruiting and fighting the Long War despite the inevitable attrition. Both Legions operate in different, unique ways to their peers and both books manage to successfully depict that- it’s left me even more eager to see the approach that future books looking at the traitor legions in 40K will do. 

[cheywood]

3 minutes ago, aa.logan said:

Just been thinking of how much this shares thematically with Harrowmaster- both books show how the quirks of each legion allow them to continue operating, recruiting and fighting the Long War despite the inevitable attrition. Both Legions operate in different, unique ways to their peers and both books manage to successfully depict that- it’s left me even more eager to see the approach that future books looking at the traitor legions in 40K will do. 

I’ve yet to read Angron, but this has me excited. I love seeing how the various traitor forces operate in the galaxy. From the way they maintain their supply lines and recruitment programs to how they gather intelligence and interact with allies. It’s all fascinating and generally feels much more creative than the Imperium’s more conventional methods. 
 

As Omar Bradley said ‘amateurs talk strategy and professionals talk logistics’.

[Moonreaper666]

50 minutes ago, cheywood said:

I’ve yet to read Angron, but this has me excited. I love seeing how the various traitor forces operate in the galaxy. From the way they maintain their supply lines and recruitment programs to how they gather intelligence and interact with allies. It’s all fascinating and generally feels much more creative than the Imperium’s more conventional methods. 
 

As Omar Bradley said ‘amateurs talk strategy and professionals talk logistics’.

 

Chaos doesn't really need logistics as they have ways of bypassing/reducing it as shown in The End and The Death

[cheywood]

35 minutes ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Chaos doesn't really need logistics as they have ways of bypassing/reducing it as shown in The End and The Death

I haven’t read TEaTD yet so no spoilers please, but all the novels I have read refute what you’re saying pretty unambiguously. Chaos changes the logistical needs of its adherents, but it doesn’t bypass them completely. Khayon spends a lot of time talking about the logistical challenges those in the Eye face throughout the Black Legion novels, just for an example off the top of my head. 

[DarkChaplain]

I recently started reading Khârn: Eater of Worlds and it is unambiguously stated that the World Eaters haven't been recruiting anyone at least since the Siege. Chances are they haven't had new neophytes since Nuceria. By Skalathrax, they're a rapidly shrinking Legion.

 

Chaos isn't a magic shortcut to create new supplies or soldiers from nothing.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

Chaos isn't a magic shortcut to create new supplies or soldiers from nothing.

 

I mean, it functionally is. That's what makes it so much fun.

 

Possibly the best part of this book is how it examines the logistics of a group that, very likely, takes the biggest casualties of any CSM force. How do the World Eaters keep kicking? How do they always turn up at whatever big conflict they're required to be at in numbers big enough to matter? The Red Angel shows us. They're all over the place. There are plenty of them, and more on the Chaotic assembly line (e.g. naughty loyalists), or coming down the pipe from guys like Kossolax who are semi-organised. It's a big galaxy. Space is big. When you throw the Warp in there as well, you add a temporal dimension to CSM reinforcements. They can, quite literally, pop out of the past (or the future, if you like) when needed. And they're drawn to the 'big conflict'. Their connection to the Warp means they're influenced in the direction - I wouldn't quite say objective - of that fight. They don't have staging areas. They don't have supply trains. They just 'feel' that they need to be at a certain place, and the exact mechanics of how they get there and in what condition are up to the group or individual.

 

The best part of the book is Kossolax's repeated questioning of how the Conqueror functions. It Just Works. He's a lucid guy. He's not dumb. But he just can't focus on it. He always gets distracted, or his thoughts slide off it, or the Nails kick in. It's such a beautiful decision by Guymer to show the 'smartest' World Eater of the story quite literally incapable of thinking about logistics on a deeper level. He's not allowed to, because if he actually thought about it, it wouldn't work any more. It doesn't play by the same rules. 

 

There's that scene where

 

Spoiler

Kossolax is looking for the 'heart' of the ship, and he finds the actual bridge, all perfectly normal, with logical connections and work-stations and 'proper' electronics and engineering. It's completely vestigal. The 'modern' bridge isn't the original but corrupted, it's a completely separate edifice that isn't physically possible. Lotara straight-up asks him if he knows when the ship last took on fuel or munitions and he doesn't know. He's 'owned' the ship for some time, but he's not allowed to think about things like that. All he knows is that it works. It shouldn't work as we understand it, it certainly operates on different physics, but it works. The Conqueror is literally scooting around and filling its magazines with space magic.

 

I was also particularly enamoured when he has a moment of pure lucidity in the hanger and he's like

 

Spoiler

This is stupid, everyone here is insane, I could flush the airlocks and just start the Legion over with the gene-seed I'd be able to mass harvest - which seems like a pretty good idea, honestly.

 

But he's not allowed to, and he knows it. Things don't work like that, any more. 

[Moonreaper666]

The Traitor Legions have MANY advantages when it comes to getting new recruits than the Loyalists.

 

That is why Cawl's Primaris (hundreds of thousands of extra strong rookie Marines) were needed.

 

No Chapter or Loyalist geneseed line can take the losses that ANY of the Traitor Legions lose ALL THE TIME and survive!!!

 

The World Eaters, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, Black Legion, Emperors Children or Word Bearers would have survived Leviathan's attack on Baal on their own

 

Chaos is basically the overpowered-unplayable-no multiplayer faction in RTS games:

 

-They have better units to crush their enemies 1 vs 1. Powerhouse playstyle

 

-They have ways of fighting their enemies and winning unfairly. Subversive

 

-They can recruit and throw large numbers at the enemy. Horde

 

-They can kill the enemy much farther away than vice versa. Ranger

 

-They have special mechanics that give them unique advantages. Gimmick. Or unique units that have no equal. Technical.

 

No Loyalist can beat Angron 1 vs 1. One-HUNDRED Grey Knight Terminators died before Hyperion and the others banished him...

 

...and that will not work a second time. Especially since the Great Rift makes Daemons much stronger and Special Daemons have symbolic invulnerability, basically you have to do something unique to banish them every time!

[Ubiquitous1984]

15 hours ago, grailkeeper said:

I got this book on the strengths of this thread. I wasn't blown away by it. There's nothing I can particularly point to but this one was not for me.

I feel the same way, I’m actually struggling to get through it.  I think part of the reason is that I’m just not a big CSM fan, and 40k Angron is probably the least interesting Primarch for me (although I’ll add the caveat that HH Angron is one of my favourites, especially his early years as depicted in ISM’s Primarch series novel).  

 

I’ve got about four hours of the audiobook left to go, so I’ll plough on to hopefully reach some form of payoff.  But so far it’s just not for me.

[Ubiquitous1984]

11 hours ago, cheywood said:

I haven’t read TEaTD yet so no spoilers please, but all the novels I have read refute what you’re saying pretty unambiguously. Chaos changes the logistical needs of its adherents, but it doesn’t bypass them completely. Khayon spends a lot of time talking about the logistical challenges those in the Eye face throughout the Black Legion novels, just for an example off the top of my head. 

The Night Lords trilogy also tackles the trouble of traitor logistics.  

[Moonreaper666]

6 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

The Night Lords trilogy also tackles the trouble of traitor logistics.  

 

To be fair Talos's warband is like the poorest of them all. Compare that to Daemon Prince Krieg Archebus who leads the largest warband

 

The Dark Mechanicum, Traitor Legions creating more of their own, Defections, etc

 

The Traitor Legions as a whole are thriving while the Loyalists are at Cawl's mercy

[Moonreaper666]

Of all the Traitor Legions the World Eaters rely the most on unconventional/Warp methods to get new recruits and equipment

 

They remind me of Skarbrand's faction from Total War

 

The Alpha Legion don't need to compared to other Traitor Legions

[Rain]

On 2/26/2023 at 2:29 AM, Ubiquitous1984 said:

I feel the same way, I’m actually struggling to get through it.  I think part of the reason is that I’m just not a big CSM fan, and 40k Angron is probably the least interesting Primarch for me (although I’ll add the caveat that HH Angron is one of my favourites, especially his early years as depicted in ISM’s Primarch series novel).  

 

I’ve got about four hours of the audiobook left to go, so I’ll plough on to hopefully reach some form of payoff.  But so far it’s just not for me.

I’m a big Chaos fan, and World Eaters player, and I didn’t like it either. It wasn’t very well written, and there were very few inter-character interactions, banter, or vignettes that made the characters feel like real people.

Really wasn’t great compared to Josh Reynolds or ADB’s Chaos work. My favorite characters were the GK, and I’m a WE player.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Just finished the book, and I would like to ask two questions.

 

Spoiler

Chapter 10, in the character of the Sarrin-daemon:

 

"Those same senses allowed her to perceive the beacon that shone from far across the formless, directionless ocean.

It was not the Astronomican, the blazing lighthouse that oriented all travel in the galaxy to Terra as all roads had once been said to lead to the Romanii capitolis of Old Earth. By the guile of the Despoiler had that light been veiled from Imperium Nihilus, but the light of this beacon, though different, burned with the same unbearable flame. It was the light of the Emperor, the Anathema, and to a creature such as her, facing it was akin to performing a naked-eye survey of the surface of a sun.

And yet it was Angron’s destination, and where the Conqueror demanded she go."

 

Eh? Can anyone offer a little more info on this beacon?

 

 

Spoiler

Chapter 11, Leidis ruminates on the nature of the BA:

 

“They deny their Thirst even as it flows to them from Him”

 

Does he think that the BA's red thirst originates from the Emperor? Is there any related info elesewhere?

 

Thanks in advance

[Tolmeus]

On 5/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, EverythingIsGreat said:

Chapter 10, in the character of the Sarrin-daemon:

 

"Those same senses allowed her to perceive the beacon that shone from far across the formless, directionless ocean.

It was not the Astronomican, the blazing lighthouse that oriented all travel in the galaxy to Terra as all roads had once been said to lead to the Romanii capitolis of Old Earth. By the guile of the Despoiler had that light been veiled from Imperium Nihilus, but the light of this beacon, though different, burned with the same unbearable flame. It was the light of the Emperor, the Anathema, and to a creature such as her, facing it was akin to performing a naked-eye survey of the surface of a sun.

And yet it was Angron’s destination, and where the Conqueror demanded she go."

 

Eh? Can anyone offer a little more info on this beacon?

 

Spoiler

That's a Semi-Astronomian in Imperium Nihilus, which is explained in detail in the second 'Arcs of Omen' book ('Arcs of Omen: Angron')

 

Since I haven't read that, I can only advice you to read either this campaign book yourself or Listen to one of the summaries on Youtube, like the one from ArbitorIan for example 

 

[Tolmeus]

On 5/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, EverythingIsGreat said:

Chapter 11, Leidis ruminates on the nature of the BA:

 

“They deny their Thirst even as it flows to them from Him”

 

Does he think that the BA's red thirst originates from the Emperor? Is there any related info elesewhere?

 

Spoiler

Not that I know of, no. 

 

Theoratically, since the gene-seed of Sanguinius is created from and partly out of the gene-seed of the Emperor, he could mean him, but I really doubt that. My best guess is the obvious answer, that he refers to Sanguinius

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

Thanks for the replies. I'm off to YouTube first. My second comment was prompted by 

 

Spoiler

The fact that "Him" is capitalized, and my belief  that this is reserved for the Emperor only.

 

[Moonreaper666]

I hope this author is allowed to do a similar treatment to ALL of the Traitor Primarchs and Traitor Legions present day!

 

Spoiler

The World Eaters now have gone up to be one of the most powerful Traitor Legions thanks to this novel!!!

 

[Urauloth]

The book doesn't really offer much explanation about Malakbael and the beacon for readers who haven't read Arks of Omen: Angron first, and I think maybe a little more solid outline of what Angron's in such a hurry to do wouldn't have hurt it. I still followed it fine (my copy of Arks was in the mail and I wasn't waiting) but it might be a little stronger as a stand-alone book with a few more contextual details sketched in.

[EverythingIsGreat]

I agree with Urauloth.

Having followed Tolmeus' advice I read the reviews and descriptions of the lore, some of them quite detailed for Arks of Omen: Angron, and now it seems that  Red Angel is just standing there like an orphan, or a book whose beginning, set up and end chapters are missing. The whole episode is interesting.

 

Spoiler

An Inquisitor who discovers a device that can power an Astronomican-like beacon that can guide Imperials through the Warp storms. That beacon is bad news for Abaddon's plans and an imperial pain in the bu... head for various bad actors including Angron. He eventually manages to destroy it at the cost of being hurled back to the Warp where he can sit for a while and play with sculls. Having Angron out of the action is important at this stage, no?

 

So II believe we are going to see quite a few more BL entries on this.

[Fedor]

I hope we don't. These direct tie-ins with studio campaign book and model releases are stifling author creativity, even when they turn out good (i liked this book).

 

There's nothing in those AoO books that needs adapted beyond what was already presented. The campaign book fluff format is sufficient. I prefer to see the writers work around it in a broader sense than having to zero in on retelling specific battles and the like.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Fedor

[DarkChaplain]

I'll go ahead and disagree on that. This stuff should not be exclusive to the studio supplements. It's relevant plot and character arc content that would be better served with a novel. And it's almost always stuff that a novel could build on, because the studio fluff is often more of a rough sketch anyway.

 

The creativity comes in when painting in the rough sketch provided, figuring out what goes in the gaps, how the backdrop is constructed, what other details and angles to add in etc. Basically, it's nothing else than some of the most acclaimed novels have done in the past.

 

The problem that's potentially stifling creativity are mandates from studio / editors. Stuff that has to be told in this or that volume. Topics that can't be broached. Stuff being kept from the book because it might spoil or conflict with planned studio stuff. Having to include macguffins in a certain way and showing off the brand new miniature kits dominating mindbogglingly boring battle scenes every other chapter. And doing all that on a low word count, to fit the short novel hardback scheme.

 

"Here's the codex/battletome/campaign supplement and related material, this is the story you'll have to stick to and not contradict in the main, now make it work as a novel with living, breathing characters" - that's all they need to do with it in the first place. If creativity gets stifled, it's because the editors are kinda poor at their jobs when it comes to dealing with GW proper.

 

But frankly, as somebody who loathes those excessively expensive, large hardback supplements, half the content of which I don't give a carp about to begin with but is almost the entire selling point to the intended target audience, I will never find those releases sufficient when it comes to storytelling.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Good day,

 

I believe I can understand both positions. Certainly Red Angel can stand on its own as a story, and one can leave it at that. Perhaps the problem is that a big part of the target audience is well-versed in the overall lore and questions will naturally arise when something seems novel or strange. AoO maybe a series of wargame campaigns, but these are still part of the overall universe and setting and have to work within its parameters. I would expect that significant events such as Angron's banishment (in the midst of the most significant war in the setting's last 10000 years) will eventually get the fuller treatment.

 

But the initiative seems to belong to GW's core business, with BL acting as the interpreter of the concepts handed from on high. I wonder if any BL story ever became the impetus/creative origin for a GW wargame campaign.

 

[Blood Angel Scout]

Think the recent lore has Angron being banished only lasts 8 days now due to the rift which explains why he's back so quickly in AoO: Lion. 

[Dornfist]

I finally got around to consuming the audiobook and I have to say it was entertaining! As many others in this thread have noted, the middle portion did drag, but the last third of the book was break neck speeds of fun! I also liked the sound effects in the audiobook especially when Telemain goes into vision mode. And I know Andrew Wincott from the Night Lords Trilogy audioboks, so he continues to be a great narrator.

 

Guymer's respect to previous works of WE content like ADB, Reynolds, and Ian St. Martin is definitely apparent, and that is always a plus for me in terms of continuity. And I liked the point of view characters in the book: the renegade Space Marine Leidis, Kossolax the Forsworn, and Telemain. I also liked how the Grey Knights were ruthless in their pursuit of Angron.

 

The ending was interesting as it doesn't seem like anyone "won" which is kind of the point of the setting.

 

Spoiler

I especially liked how Telemain chose to deny Angron seeing he had made a mistake by condemnation Haedes in pursuit of a being who had been dead since his ascension on Nuceria. I wonder, did Telemain's spirit actually go into the demon blade shard in his thigh?

 

The fate of Leidis' thrall was sad and poor Lotara. I really feel that Sarrin and Angron deserve a mercy kill due to how jacked up they are right now compared to how they were in the HH books. Angron continues to be a force of nature in this book, kind of like his portrayal in "Echoes", which is another reason to feel bad for him and why a permanent death is the best fate for him at this point.

 

[Rain]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:20 AM, Dornfist said:

I finally got around to consuming the audiobook and I have to say it was entertaining! As many others in this thread have noted, the middle portion did drag, but the last third of the book was break neck speeds of fun! I also liked the sound effects in the audiobook especially when Telemain goes into vision mode. And I know Andrew Wincott from the Night Lords Trilogy audioboks, so he continues to be a great narrator.

 

Guymer's respect to previous works of WE content like ADB, Reynolds, and Ian St. Martin is definitely apparent, and that is always a plus for me in terms of continuity. And I liked the point of view characters in the book: the renegade Space Marine Leidis, Kossolax the Forsworn, and Telemain. I also liked how the Grey Knights were ruthless in their pursuit of Angron.

 

The ending was interesting as it doesn't seem like anyone "won" which is kind of the point of the setting.

 

  Hide contents

I especially liked how Telemain chose to deny Angron seeing he had made a mistake by condemnation Haedes in pursuit of a being who had been dead since his ascension on Nuceria. I wonder, did Telemain's spirit actually go into the demon blade shard in his thigh?

 

The fate of Leidis' thrall was sad and poor Lotara. I really feel that Sarrin and Angron deserve a mercy kill due to how jacked up they are right now compared to how they were in the HH books. Angron continues to be a force of nature in this book, kind of like his portrayal in "Echoes", which is another reason to feel bad for him and why a permanent death is the best fate for him at this point.

 

Telomane was the best part of the book by far. He presents a foil to Angron in that just like Angron, he is filled with rage, survivor’s guilt, and desire for vengeance over the deaths of his comrades, and this becomes his singular obsession to the point that it hurts any future relationships that he would otherwise be able to build. Just as Angron “died” on Nuceria, Telomane “died” on Armageddon. He is a reflection of Angron, and he understands this in a sense which only feeds his obsession.

 

But, he lets go of his rage at the end, earning the peace in death that will elude Angron forever. If the entire book was from Telomane’s perspective, I would have probably enjoyed it more.