If we get a Super-Sanguinor or Sanguinius-returned model

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If we get sanguinius or super sanguinor, what kind of stats and abilities would you like to see?

 

id like to see him as melee monster, who is fairly durable, and some sort of buff to DC units, maybe an extra inch to charge on top of our thirst’s extra inch, within 6-8 inches from him.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Jolemai
Title

[Jolemai]

 

Provided the thread stays on topic of a new model and rules. We don't need another rehashed thread from earlier and I don't expect to see any afters, either.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

As for stats

 

M12” WS2+ BS2+ S6 T6 A8 W12 Sv2+ (4++, 5+++)

 

Thirst for Glory- all <blood angels> or successor chapter models within in 8” of sanguinor may add +1 to their charge rolls on top of any other charge buffs.

 

Inspired Rage- all <death company> models within 8” of sanguinor get +1 to S and a 5+++ Sv

(hopefully they’ll be cutting down on rerolls for 10th so I’m not including any reroll buffs)

Edited February 6, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

get +1 to S and a 5+++ Sv

4+++ in my opinion. 

5+++ should be standard. At least that, anyways.

[jaxom]

I like the stats, but think it would be okay to cut the attacks down to 6, then add a sweep option to the Encarmine Broadsword.

 

EDIT: Added in and made changes based on later comments.

 

M 14", WS 2, BS 2, S 6, T 6, W 8, A 6, Ld 10, Sv 2+

 

Weapons

Encarmine Broadsword

• Cleave: User Attacks, S+2, AP-4, D3, Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a CHARACTER or VEHICLE, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence for that wound ends.
• Sweep: User x2 Attacks, S+0, AP-3, D1, Each time an attack is made with this weapon against INFANTRY, an unmodified hit roll of 6 inflicts an additional hit.
   

Projection of Glory

• R12", Assault 3+d3, Str 10, AP-4, D1, Blast, attacks Ld instead of T

 

Thematically it seems odd that the Sanguinor is buffing Death Company, when he represents the not-Black Rage. Is the idea that he's lessening the rage and so makes them better fighters? I like the themes of the abilities the Sanguinor currently has, but they could use some boosting.

 

Abilities

Aura of Fervour - fine as is.

 

Angel Incarnate (replaces Angelic Visage): Each time an attack is made against this model, subtract 1 from that attack’s hit roll. The model has a 4+ invulnerable save, which increases to 3+ against wounds from enemy CHARACTERS. When this model would lose a wound, roll one d6; on a 5+ that wound is not lost. The model cannot lose more than three wounds in a single phase. While a friendly BLOOD ANGELS CORE unit is within 6" of this model, add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit.

 

Miraculous Savior: When this model performs a Heroic Intervention he can heal one friendly BLOOD ANGEL INFANTRY or BLOOD ANGEL BIKER model whose unit is within 3" of it. That model regains up to D3 lost wounds. At the end of the Heroic Interventions step of your opponent’s Charge phase, if this model has not yet been set up on the battlefield, and if any enemy units finished a charge move within Engagement Range of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS units this phase, you can set up this model within Engagement Range of one of those enemy units. This model counts as having performed a Heroic Intervention in the turn it uses this ability.

 

Avenging Angel: This model is eligible to declare a charge with even if it Fell Back this turn. This model is eligible to perform a Heroic Intervention if it is within 6” horizontally and 5” vertically of any enemy unit, instead of 3” horizontally and 5” vertically. Each time this model makes a Heroic Intervention move, it can move up to 6” instead of 3”. All other rules for Heroic Interventions still apply. The model may re-roll to-hit and to-wound dice values equal to the number of friendly destroyed  BLOOD ANGEL CHARACTER models.

 

Warlord Trait... I baked in the Ld buff from Heroic Bearing (w/out the WT bonus range) because the Sanguinor doesn't have any of the auras effected by it. Replacing it, I could see Speed of the Primarch, Soulwarden, or Gift of Foresight all fitting his theme. SotP makes him a great duelist, Soulwarden is an okay aura buff, and GoFS helps with saves and (if other characters haven't been lost yet) to hit or wound.

 

Question: is the desire for a wound ignore mechanic (aka feel no pain) coming from a thematic place or from a "he needs this to survive" place?

Edited February 6, 2023 by jaxom

[Karhedron]

I would take the wounds to about 8. With 12 Wounds, he can be picked out and would normally have a degrading profile.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

4+++ in my opinion. 

5+++ should be standard. At least that, anyways.

That just seems a bit too OP, getting past a 2+, a 4++, and then a 4+++?

[Karhedron]

8W T6 and a 2+/4++/5+++ is pretty tough I think. I think we should be looking at something with base stats a little better than a Daemon Prince. Just like a DP, we are dealing with a Marine who has been elevated to immortality by the fickle powers of the Warp.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

M 14", WS 2, BS 2, S 6, T 6, W 8, A 6, Ld 10, Sv 2+/4++/5++7

 

Encarmine Glaive

Strike -> S+3, AP4, D3; a to wound roll of 6 inflicts d3 mortal wounds

Sweep -> S, AP3, D2 (2x base attacks)

 

Can fall back and charge. Friendly BA models within 6" can use his leadership.

Edited February 7, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Karhedron]

Looks spot on to me! How many points though? Nobody is fielding the Sanguinor with his current stats so I don't think he should have too much of a price hike. Maybe 180 points?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

I like the stats, but think it would be okay to cut the attacks down to 6, then add a sweep option to the Encarmine Broadsword.

 

Weapons

Encarmine Broadsword

• Cleave: User Attacks, S+2, AP-4, D3, Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a CHARACTER or VEHICLE, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence for that wound ends.
• Sweep: User x2 Attacks, S+0, AP-3, D1, Each time an attack is made with this weapon against INFANTRY, an unmodified hit roll of 6 inflicts an additional hit.

Projection of Glory

• R12", Assault 3+d3, Str 10, AP-4, D1, Blast  

 

Thematically it seems odd that the Sanguinor is buffing Death Company, when he represents the not-Black Rage. Is the idea that he's lessening the rage and so makes them better fighters? I like the themes of the abilities the Sanguinor currently has, but they could use some boosting.

 

Abilities

Aura of Fervour - fine as is.

 

Angel Incarnate (replaces Angelic Visage): Each time an attack is made against this model, subtract 1 from that attack’s hit roll. The model cannot lose more than three wounds in a single phase. The model has a 4+ invulnerable save, which increases to 3+ against wounds from enemy CHARACTERS. While a friendly BLOOD ANGELS CORE unit is within 6" of this model, add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit.

 

Miraculous Savior: When this model performs a Heroic Intervention he can heal one friendly BLOOD ANGEL INFANTRY or BLOOD ANGEL BIKER model whose unit is within 3" of it. That model regains up to D3 lost wounds. At the end of the Heroic Interventions step of your opponent’s Charge phase, if this model has not yet been set up on the battlefield, and if any enemy units finished a charge move within Engagement Range of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS units this phase, you can set up this model within Engagement Range of one of those enemy units. This model counts as having performed a Heroic Intervention in the turn it uses this ability.

 

Avenging Angel: This model is eligible to declare a charge with even if it Fell Back this turn. This model is eligible to perform a Heroic Intervention if it is within 6” horizontally and 5” vertically of any enemy unit, instead of 3” horizontally and 5” vertically. Each time this model makes a Heroic Intervention move, it can move up to 6” instead of 3”. All other rules for Heroic Interventions still apply. The model may re-roll to-hit and to-wound dice values equal to the number of friendly destroyed  BLOOD ANGEL CHARACTER models.

 

Warlord Trait... I baked in the Ld buff from Heroic Bearing (w/out the WT bonus range) because the Sanguinor doesn't have any of the auras effected by it. Replacing it, I could see Speed of the Primarch, Soulwarden, or Gift of Foresight all fitting his theme. SotP makes him a great duelist, Soulwarden is an okay aura buff, and GoFS helps with saves and (if other characters haven't been lost yet) to hit or wound.

 

Question: is the desire for a wound ignore mechanic (aka feel no pain) coming from a thematic place or from a "he needs this to survive" place?

The FNP desire comes from both places. Thematically as a primarch or equivalent warp entity it should be very difficult to kill him, but also it would just suck to put him on the table and have him killed T1 or 2

[jaxom]

2 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Looks spot on to me! How many points though? Nobody is fielding the Sanguinor with his current stats so I don't think he should have too much of a price hike. Maybe 180 points?

I updated my previous post. Assuming that's the idea, I'd say 200?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

M 14", WS 2, BS 2, S 6, T 6, W 8, A 6, Ld 10, Sv 2+/4++/5++7

 

Encarmine Glaive

Strike -> S+3, AP4, D3; a to wound roll of 6 inflicts d3 mortal wounds

Sweep -> S, AP3, D2

 

Can fall back and charge. Friendly BA models within 6" can use his leadership.

I feel a bit more buffing ability would be appropriate for a primarch or equivalent.

[Djangomatic82]

I dont know what i would prefer on him, but i can think of a few unique abilities that would make him a bit more interesting than a simple melee character. To be clear, any ONE of these abilities would be cool, lets not get greedy here.

 

1. A Turn 1 Drop Pod strike ability for himself and 1 other JUMP PACK unit.

2. 6" Aura, When a <INFANTRY> model is destroyed, you can use this ability instead of using any other abilities that take effect as a result of this model being destroyed (e.g. Astartes Banner). If you do, this model is not removed from play until the start of the next turn or the end of the battle (whichever comes first). Until that happens, it is still considered to be in play, but any further wounds this model would lose are not lost.

3. 6" Aura, Advance and Charge.

4. If this model is in your army at the beginning of the game, any JUMP PACK or TERMINATOR units set up in reserves have the following ability;

-Miraculous Saviour: At the end of the Heroic Interventions step of your opponent's Charge phase, if this model has not yet been set up on the battlefield, and if any enemy units finished a charge move within Engagement Range of any friendly BLOOD ANGELS units this phase, you can set up this model within Engagement Range of one of those enemy units. This model counts as having performed a Heroic Intervention in the turn it uses this ability.

EDIT:

5.Fires of Heaven
- When a unit with this ability Advances, it may treat all of its Heavy and Pistol weapons as though they were Assault weapons until the end of the turn.(Eg. a Heavy D6 weapon is treated as an Assault D6 weapon.)

Edited February 7, 2023 by Djangomatic82

[Arkangilos]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That just seems a bit too OP, getting past a 2+, a 4++, and then a 4+++?

Oh I was thinking the 4+++ on the DC he would have buffed with your suggested Aura. 
 

The way I would envision that would be this:

 

DC think they are Sanguinius and don’t feel pain the same way. 
In the vision, the Sanguinor would appear to be the Emperor (a shining beacon of Gold Light) and so become even more reluctant to give into pain because now they are back to back with the Emperor, and so are even less likely to fall. So for DC they’d be 3+ 4+++
 

I think DC should be 5+++ as standard, not 6+++

Edited February 7, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Oh I was thinking the 4+++ on the DC he would have buffed with your suggested Aura. 
 

The way I would envision that would be this:

 

DC think they are Sanguinius and don’t feel pain the same way. 
In the vision, the Sanguinor would appear to be the Emperor (a shining beacon of Gold Light) and so become even more reluctant to give into pain because now they are back to back with the Emperor, and so are even less likely to fall. So for DC they’d be 3+ 4+++
 

I think DC should be 5+++ as standard, not 6+++

4+++ for the DC might not be too bad.

I envision him slightly less killy than angron, but close, more durable than angron, but better buffing abilities.

 

I definitely think he should boost/buff charges. A mid range charge should be almost guaranteed, and long range charges regularly attainable.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arkangilos]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I envision him slightly less killy than angron, but close, more durable than angron, but better buffing abilities.

Heh. I would probably think the opposite, more killy (or at least in single combat more formidable, like Sanguinius) but less durable. Definitely more buffy, though.

 

Though my reason could apply to both your way and mine. My thinking was Angron was a massive Deamon prince and that would make him more durable, but because the Sanguinor isn’t a mortal the same logic could be applied. I figured more killy because Sanguinius mopped the floor with Angron (well “mopped” is a bit of an exaggeration but it was a sick battle and he “killed” the crap out of him), and even though he isn’t Sanguinius, the way he is described in Dante and DoB makes him seem like he is at least on par.

[Karhedron]

Rather than a 5+++, would a damage reduction ability be more fitting? Either -1 Damage or Half-damage. That feels more fitting with other high-level characters.

[Arkangilos]

15 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Rather than a 5+++, would a damage reduction ability be more fitting? Either -1 Damage or Half-damage. That feels more fitting with other high-level characters.

What do daemons get? 

[Jolemai]

Hacked to bits with chainswords.

[Morticon]

For me, I'm okay with him being around Daemon Prince level/stats, unless he's a real incarnation/avatar - in which case we can pump it up to LOW status, and then go a little wilder. 

 

I'd still keep him under 10W, and T6.  

 

I think any rules to reflect his prescience and know martial prowess would be great.  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

What do daemons get? 

Immunity to AP, and various different saves 4-5+++

[Arkangilos]

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Immunity to AP, and various different saves 4-5+++

Then I think that’s what he should get.