Cannibalisation and re-use of marine equipment during the Heresy

[Pacific81]

Was just reading about some of the guerilla warfare operations carried out by some of the Legions during the Heresy (specifically the shattered Legions) and wondered how much cannibalisation of wargear, equipment and weaponry took place?

 

I don't have much understanding of how ubiquitous or easy to fit some of the armaments are. For example, I remember reading something about one of mk6's strengths being it was easy to fit and combine with earlier armour marks, precisely because supply lines could not always be guaranteed, whereas MK4 was the armour of more plentiful times.

But could we have expect techmarines and their aides to scour the battlefield looking for undamaged plate for example? How easy would this be to combine? I assume the first task would be a fresh paint-job so no friendly fire occurred, not to mention the shame of carrying the colours of an opposing side.

 

I know this has a lot of precedents in real-life history (reading about suits of armour switching sides repeatedly during the hundred years war for example). And, in modern warfare a fighting force without the luxury of supply lines having to 'make do' with whatever they could scavenge, and turn those weapons on their original owners. But, just wondered what people's thoughts were within the context of the 30k setting (with half of a hobby project in mind!)

[Sothalor]

Oh this absolutely happened, and on significant scale as well.

 

The whole original concept of Mark V powered armor as a whole was a hodgepodge of scavenged, looted, and jury-rigged pieces cobbled together to form functional suits as the Heresy went on and logistics went to all hell.

 

Edit: From a hobby perspective, go nuts! People here love seeing creative ideas and projects!

Edited February 6, 2023 by Sothalor

[lansalt]

Depends on the Legion and the time period. By Isstvan III, the WE were already using MkV variants (like Khârn himself) because they didn't care much about uniformity and were having to replace parts all the time because their style of warfare.  And as we know, the Shattered Legions had to scavenge whatever they could despite their perfectionism/professionalism/artisanship.

 

Generally speaking, Legions started the war with uniformly equipped units, but attrition changed that for front line units, with the exception of mid-heresy fresh recruits that got issued the standard MkV or MkVI armour in mass numbers (like the "Inductii" featured in the Age of Darkness box set).

 

A good example is the Ultramarines, that at Calth used clean and uniform armour suits and vehicles with infamously parade/honour paint schemes with a lot of marble white, etc. But  later by the end of the Shadow Crusade had embraced mismatched suits and units as a mark of honour and veterancy, including allowing more custom heraldry (As seen in the short story The Laurel of Defiance)

 

[Cactus]

@Pacific81II look forward to your kitbashed mkV 6mm models.

[sarabando]

 

my shattered legions are heavy on this theme with lots of "off" armour ie RG in lots of mk3. My contemptor even has a lower leg plate taken from some angry bois

[jaxom]

I forget where, but I think it's mentioned that the Death Guard would have had almost no armor for the opening of the Heresy if they hadn't salvaged a ton of loyalist tanks from Istvaan V, because they lost so much on Istvaan III as the armored companies were predominantly loyalists.

[Gamiel]

The Chaos Space Marines box is a goldmine for armour and weapons that already looks "we had to make do"/jury-rigged. Suggest  mixing parts and/or bodies from that box with what you already have.

[Bung]

You will find some stuff of that in the SoT Books, a good example is Cthonias Reckoning with the SoH.

There are a lot of fresh SoH recruits wearing MK II armour and the like cause museum armour is better than no armour.

 

There are some first hand reports from WW 2 veterans at least on the german side.

Mostly when you lost something during a battle you went to the medics tents. Ther was a pile of usable gear and you took what you needed.

 

I expect the same for an all out war like the Heresy, where you basically scrap together everything that works to have at least something to throw at the enemy, including the kitchen sink.

 

Thats at least the explanation for my army using a lot of different models and conversions.

[Xenith]

18 hours ago, Pacific81 said:

But could we have expect techmarines and their aides to scour the battlefield looking for undamaged plate for example?

 

Absolutely, this would have happened even before the heresy, however would happen even more during, where ships, arms, armaments, and even whole forge worlds were captured and raided to provide materiel for the war effort. 

 

Also as above, marines are extremely proud and would want to show off their 'hardcore' nature or veterancy through battle worn suits, as inspiration for their forces and intimidation for the enemy. Look at that ultramarine, Ventanus was it? He lost a hand and didnt get a replacement as it was a badge of honour and a source of pride for the UM's. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Xenith

[Pacific81]

I wonder if we heard the whole truth of it though with him? "Brother Ventanus, your turn to drive this Rhino transport to the depot I believe?" And then he just holds up the stump of his hand and shrugs in response.

 

Really interesting replies guys thanks. I had forgotten that Mk5 was meant to be the composite piece. And in some ways, things obviously never returned to the height of the Crusade, where many of the marines were kitted out in the latest and greatest MK4 armour types. By the time we get to the 41st millennium, they have become almost sacred relics, with a mix of everything and no doubt not working quite as well as it once did. Although I assume that has been retconned to an extent, as the Imperium now had the capacity to pump out large quantities of plus size Primaris suits and all sorts of other varieties.

 

One idea I had for a project was an Iron Hands force set after Istvaan, where they have been forced to scavenge for wargear and conduct an uncomfortable (for them) from of guerilla warfare. Good to see there seems to be a lot of presidence for this in the background.

 

 

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Absolutely, this would have happened even before the heresy, however would happen even more during, where ships, arms, armaments, and even whole forge worlds were captured and raided to provide materiel for the war effort. 

 

 

I guess I saw before the Heresy, that the legions would generally recover all of their dead they could, extract gene seed and classify equipment as 're-use, repair or rebuild' and then move on. In the Heresy where time allowed and they hold the field they'd do the same with their own dead, but for the enemy they'd only be interested in the armour and equipment, so the recovery process might be more techmarine/thrall lead.

[LameBeard]

I remember reading one of the short stories set after the Dropsite massacre, where the survivors ambush groups of traitors where they can, and literally every bullet round, grenade or other tiny bit of supply is picked over and jealously hoarded. With a bit more wherewithal it seems that would be totally appropriate for armour too.

[OttoVonAwesome]

Threadomancy (I know) but this is a fun topic. It was actually Mk 7 that was made to be fully plug and play with Mk 6 beacuase of the difficulty in combining the different armour marks together for salvaged suits. This never made much sense to me as they all shared the same undersuit before so is it a software issue? Now the new heresy minis are interesting beacuase the mark 6 and 3 clearly do not share the same undersuit. There are still plenty of examples of mixed marks in the black books so the practice wasn't uncommon. And lastly Mark 5 came in two broad types, one being any suit that was salvaged from different marks and the other being a wide range of hastily designed cheap to produce bespoke patterns wich could include all the different visions of heresy armour types this was a neat change to the cannon cuase well it made everything cannon you can even design your own and it's cannon cuase it's just mark 5 now.

[Bung]

Remember that MK II / III, MK IV and MK VI had been all mostly build up from the ground and werent designt to be interchangable but as complete replacement. 

 

[Antarius]

I’m actually just starting an Ultramarines force, where I’m looking to incorporate as many diverse pieces of armour as possible (likely not all that many, as I’m pretty much going all plastic, so it’s a question of what I have lying around, what I can sculpt/mold and what I can get printed, as well as what future plastic releases will provide spare parts). I love the idea of the previously glorious and well-supplied legions having to make do with whatever is to hand, as well as scavenging from each other (as the Warhammer 40.000 ethos of “everything is impure until proven otherwise” hasn’t arrived yet).

[Bung]

4 hours ago, Antarius said:

I’m actually just starting an Ultramarines force, where I’m looking to incorporate as many diverse pieces of armour as possible (likely not all that many, as I’m pretty much going all plastic, so it’s a question of what I have lying around, what I can sculpt/mold and what I can get printed, as well as what future plastic releases will provide spare parts). I love the idea of the previously glorious and well-supplied legions having to make do with whatever is to hand, as well as scavenging from each other (as the Warhammer 40.000 ethos of “everything is impure until proven otherwise” hasn’t arrived yet).

 

I converted a bunch of MK VI Marines to my  MK V Variant.

You can do a lot with some extra Rivets and small Zip ties for cables 

Then i added some printed heads and shoulder pads.

 

There is even a MK V conversion Kit you can print yourself for the cables etc.

[lansalt]

1 hour ago, Bung said:

small Zip ties for cables

Nice tip, thanks

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

II think it depends a lot of your tastes and want legion are you playing. With WE or the Shattered Legions is a "must" have miniatures mixing pieces of different MKs and weapon models, or mixed types of "pure" MKs. More than other legion like SoH, IW or UM, famous for their very-well-stocked catches of armors, weapons and vehicles.

Or both, look AL and they "wardrobes of disguise"

But I believe is a nice and colorful touch in any army have some miniatures assembled with cannibalized pieces.

I want to add some MK V miniatures and pieces and the ideas above are interesting...

23 hours ago, Bung said:

 

I converted a bunch of MK VI Marines to my  MK V Variant.

You can do a lot with some extra Rivets and small Zip ties for cables 

Then i added some printed heads and shoulder pads.

 

There is even a MK V conversion Kit you can print yourself for the cables etc.

 

Hummm show us the babies...

[Bung]

3 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

Hummm show us the babies...

 

Ok, here for you: 

 

Small Walkthrough

1) I removed the stuff from the chest (a pair of good nippers and a file made that pretty easy)

2) adding Cables (cut from small zip ties) and rivets (Rivets were done with 0,5 mm plasticcard, Tamiya Extra Thin Cement and a Punch & Die Set)

3) added some 3d printed parts (Head, Shoulder Pad and Anvilus Backpack)

 

The rivets were ayeballed and not really placed with any meassurements.

 

I havernt gotten around painting that Squad (full 20) but they are going to be yellow.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Bung

[Spagunk]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:09 AM, Bung said:

...small Zip ties for cables 

Massively agree with lansalt on this. Downright brilliant hobby idea.

[Petitioner's City]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:03 PM, Bung said:

Remember that MK II / III, MK IV and MK VI had been all mostly build up from the ground and werent designt to be interchangable but as complete replacement. 

 

 

And yet we've been shown that since Betrayal they became interchangeable through cannibalising and scavenging :)

 

[Noserenda]

I get the feeling people long overstated the incompatibility of various armour mks/generations given how flexible the models and art are. I suspect its more like some stuff just works together, some needs a little work by a techmarine or the power armour equivalent of a converter plug fitting :D 

[Bung]

12 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

And yet we've been shown that since Betrayal they became interchangeable through cannibalising and scavenging :)

 

 

Yes, but i think ineither the WD article or the Deathwatch RPG its mentioned you can replace parts, but they need modifikation of a Techmarine while for MK VII it was an inbuild feature.

Which makes sense, with MK VII developed at a time where spare parts and general production were in decline.

 

Even today i can make BMW parts work in a Ford, but its a lot of work and will need a fully equiped Workshop but i can easily use parts from an equivalent model from Audi, VW, Skoda etc. as they were developed to use much of the same parts for cost efficency. 

Just an example i know i the real world.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I think this is one of the few (or even more, unique) official Horus Heresy miniature with such mix of pieces of different MKs (III and IV at least).

I think we need a bit more with this concept.

Edited October 10, 2023 by AGRAMAR
I forget the pic

[Halandaar]

 

2 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

And yet we've been shown that since Betrayal they became interchangeable through cannibalising and scavenging :)

 

 

In addition, the Badab War books contain a lot of art panels showing different armour marks being used together. I know it's strictly a topic about the Heresy but those books are just as "canon" as the Heresy black books