The most important detail of any game: how to pronounce fictional names!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You really don’t want to know…

[Mazer Rackham]

10 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

Sure. It's pronounced "HOOR-ɒn BLAK-haart."

 

 

4 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I only remember Huron, as he was in the Night Lords Trilogy, but he wasn't named Lufgt in that book, so I have no clue how that's pronounced!

 

Cheers anyway, fella. Much appreciated 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Mazer Rackham

[Halandaar]

I always just presumed the G was silent (probably for convenience) and pronounced it like the start of Luftwaffe.

[Tyriks]

Just now, Halandaar said:

I always just presumed the G was silent (probably for convenience) and pronounced it like the start of Luftwaffe.

I made the same assumption but I can't remember if I did that on my own or if I heard someone else say it that way.

[Mazer Rackham]

5 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

I always just presumed the G was silent (probably for convenience) and pronounced it like the start of Luftwaffe.

 

4 minutes ago, Tyriks said:

I made the same assumption but I can't remember if I did that on my own or if I heard someone else say it that way.

 

Same. I just wondered if there was an inflection I was missing. Last thing I want to do is fall out with the Tyrant of Badab.  

 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

3 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

I disagree with your take. Ecclesiastical Latin as pronounced today is the same as pronounced in the 300s from across all the Latin West and the Vulgate. The only timeframe I saw recently was at least the 800’s for pronunciation, and listed the Carolingian Renaissance as part of the reasons. The classical Latin is actually newer from what I’ve learned, and mass adoption of it in teaching only came within the last century 1900’s). 
 

 

Ecclesiastical pronounciation has not much in common with late Latin/proto-Romance pronounciation, so no, it was not spoken in the 300s, or 400s and even less in 500s.

Yes, ecclesiastical pronnounciation, like all traditional pronouciations has its roots in the system proposed by Alcuin (so Carolingian Renaissance), whose main achievement was return to pronouncing as much letters as possible and reversal of some other vernacular changes like omissions of final consonants or b>v evolution. However, not all of his proposals stuck with the users. And here we go to "cicatrix", which according too Eccl.pron. (i.e. traditional Italian) begins with "chi-". Alcuin wanted to pronounce it like in classical times (so "k", or like in cat) but already in the end of the 9th century it was re-palatalized into "ts" in France (and later further closer to "s") and parts of Northern Italy and into tʃ ("ch") in most of Italy, basically it never went back to what Alcuin wanted. There was never one pronunciation in Medieval Europe (or to say it better - there wasn't one pronounciation after Latin finally branched into seperate dialects of the vernacular, so lets say 7th century onwards, although regional differences always existed in Roman Empire), but differences were not as great as to prohibit understanding others. The more time passed the more (although not even nearly as many as with vernacular) regional changes there were and Eccl.pron. as spoken today represents changes undergone by Latin in Italy (and in practice it often represents a mix between local traditional pronounciantions and the Italian, what's visible e.g. in how "gn" is vocalized by clergy in different countries).

[Arkangilos]

4 hours ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

Ecclesiastical pronounciation has not much in common with late Latin/proto-Romance pronounciation

And I did not claim it did. Ecclesiastical Latin was not Vulgar Latin, it was what was termed as “liturgical” Latin.

 

and yes, it was the same as what was in the 300’s considering the Vulgate was written in Ecclesiastical Latin, the Liturgies were said in Ecclesiastical Latin, etc. 

 

To be frank, I don’t trust your opinion, especially when the Church suggests otherwise. In the end, unless you can produce official books that teach ecclesiastical Latin from the 1400’s that vary in how they teach pronunciation, I’m going to go by what my own Ecclesiastical Latin books say, and because I know Ecclesiastical Latin has existed since at least the Vulgate, I’m not going to assume the pronunciation changed unless someone can physically show me a textbook from then that teaches something different. 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

And I did not claim it did. Ecclesiastical Latin was not Vulgar Latin, it was what was termed as “liturgical” Latin.

 

and yes, it was the same as what was in the 300’s considering the Vulgate was written in Ecclesiastical Latin, the Liturgies were said in Ecclesiastical Latin, etc. 

 

To be frank, I don’t trust your opinion, especially when the Church suggests otherwise. In the end, unless you can produce official books that teach ecclesiastical Latin from the 1400’s that vary in how they teach pronunciation, I’m going to go by what my own Ecclesiastical Latin books say, and because I know Ecclesiastical Latin has existed since at least the Vulgate, I’m not going to assume the pronunciation changed unless someone can physically show me a textbook from then that teaches something different. 

 

Well, I don't know about 1400s, but if we are staying with the initial "c", Theodulf of Orleans, the abbot of Fleury (leading litterary center of France at the time), in his Questiones Grammaticales written ca. 980 and meant to be a teaching material for Ramsey abbey pronounced it "ts". His pronunciation for "France" at that time is confirmed by materials meant to teach pronunciation like the bilingual version  of Canticle of Saint Eulalia (9th century) from St.Amand abbey, which tries to render Romance of the region with the new Carolingian Latin system.

 

When it comes to pronunciation before Alcuin, the only evidence you need to understand that Latin, despite best efforts of Alcuins predecessors like St.Bede, was pronounced according to local vernacular is the Council of Tours (813), which, after introduction of the revised pronunciation had to deal with the problem that lay people suddenly stopped understanding the mass.

[Arkangilos]

5 minutes ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

 

Well, I don't know about 1400s, but if we are staying with the initial "c", Theodulf of Orleans, the abbot of Fleury (leading litterary center of France at the time), in his Questiones Grammaticales written ca. 980 and meant to be a teaching material for Ramsey abbey pronounced it "ts". His pronunciation for "France" at that time is confirmed by materials meant to teach pronunciation like the bilingual version  of Canticle of Saint Eulalia (9th century) from St.Amand abbey, which tries to render Romance of the region with the new Carolingian Latin system.

 

When it comes to pronunciation before Alcuin, the only evidence you need to understand that Latin, despite best efforts of Alcuins predecessors like St.Bede, was pronounced according to local vernacular is the Council of Tours (813), which, after introduction of the revised pronunciation had to deal with the problem that lay people suddenly stopped understanding the mass.

I would love to keep going and provide articles and such but this is way off topic at this point!

[LameBeard]

15 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

 

I still can't get my head round the fact that Black Library can't work out if the Imperium uses the Metric or Imperial measurement systems. Every author seems to have a preference, it was particularly jarring in the War of the Beast books when the same characters would skip between the two between books.

Probably because that’s what it’s like living in Britain. You can’t walk 100 yards down the street without it changing to metres and back. We use both systems simultaneously, badly. An even when we use Imperial we use it in a different manner from esteemed North American cousins. Like measuring a person’s weight in pounds - we have no idea what you are talking about.

 

back on topic. I enjoy some pronunciations which are probably non-standard.

 

like there was an episode of Radio Free Istvaan where the presenter discovers the golden boys are not universally pronounced CUSS—TOADS. But you know what, now they are always the cuss-toads to me.

 

I also enjoy autocorrect’s pronunciation of the Ultramarine Primarch: Robert Gillman.

 

Makes him sound like the solid accountant he is. I’ve heard stories of Anglophone US immigration officials in M2 struggle with (say) an Eastern European surname and writing something more manageable on the form, which then sticks as the official name. Robert Gillman it is. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by LameBeard

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

56 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I would love to keep going and provide articles and such but this is way off topic at this point!

Fair enough. Sorry for derailing the thread.

[LameBeard]

7 minutes ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

Fair enough. Sorry for derailing the thread.

Sorry? A civil discussion on the history of pronunciation of Ecclesiastical Latin in a forum dedicated to Toy Soldiers in a fictional far-future setting? That’s the kind of thing that keeps me coming back to B&C.

[chapter master 454]

Loving watching this unfold, nice to see B&C DOES still have its humour filled side (and that's Humour with a U, as in we can't have a good time without U!)

 

Even our venerable brother Tyler is here. Just remember what we call him when the melta is primed: Sir!

 

Certainly an element of preference and self learning does happen. Due to an inconsistent nature of the english language born of the fact that it is a massive composite of various languages doesn't help as one word may use a different set of rules for it than others. I have spent many (too many...but when driving buses and nothing else to do but think...) hours contemplating where certain words come from. After all, the common prefix of "De-" is used to commonly denote removal or reduction...so with Destroy I wondered what Stroy was...my search led only to far too many theories with the only common thread is that it is Greek in origin unlike other words which means it uses a different rule set.

 

oh and I ain't changing how I pronounce Cicatrix Maledictum because personally I think it sounds better and I don't want to deal with inconsistency. Besides...why would 40k use Church latin? Not like a major faction is based around some sort of religion. Such nonsense. ;)

 

Though I am quite content to watch this thread continue. Nice to have something like this be at the top of Amicus for a change...too much gloom recently.

[Reskin]

No no no no no NO, absolutely not. Not going to happen. Nope!

 

this is a no-fun zone, there shall be no “banter” no shenanigans, no humour, no jokes of any kind. I simply won’t tolerate it.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm surprised noone's mentioned the 'ii' ending in several names being pronounced 'eeEye' like SkitareeEye, or cataphracteeeye.

 

 

 

[Domhnall]

19 hours ago, sitnam said:

I'll accept official pronunciation for any of the made up names on 40k. I will never fathom how the British pronounce lieutenant with an F however

 

Speaking of the British, how does a country significantly smaller then America seem to have far more regional dialects. I've been watching the Painting Phase podcast and it's like the three hosts are almost from different countries. I traveled from Texas to Florida and the only notable  difference I heard was smattering of Cajuns in Louisiana 

 

Simplest answer, because language evolves over time.

Lieutenant comes from French, pretty much a "tenant in Lieu of" a superiour i.e. "command in place of" the commander. So in modern pronunciation it is indeed pronounced Loo-ten-ant. 

However, when the French language (Normans I'm sure) came over to the British Isles, it was the Old French in which 'Lieu' had the 'Leuf' spelling and pronunciation. We stuck with that (tradition and all that), and by the time the French were helping during the American Revolution, it had evolved into Lieu, which is what you use to this day. 

 

Fun bit of language trivia with the English Language. In broad terms, Germanic and Latin* was the language of the peasants, and French was the language of the nobles/lords/ladies etc. So if it's a fancy sounding name, it's probably got French origins. 

Also, Language travels slowly, so the further away from London you get in mainland Britain the closer it is to Old English. Also, Wales and Cornwall are the closest to the native Britons we have left, and Scotland had a large influence from the Gaels from Ireland, so our language also had that spreading from the North West. Norse also had an influence in the northern parts of England and Scotland as well. 

 

Germanic, Latin, Norse, Brittonic, various other languages mushed up into what became "Old English".

[Domhnall]

23 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I'm surprised noone's mentioned the 'ii' ending in several names being pronounced 'eeEye' like SkitareeEye, or cataphracteeeye.

 

 

 

 

The adept who named stuff had a habit of saying 'aye' a lot. Probably from the Forge World Glasweegia.

For example, "Aye, that's wan o' them Skitari, Aye?" or "Naw! It's called a Cataphracti, Aye!" 

The servitor writing it down didn't have the programming to understand speech patterns like that, and wrote it down as it heard it.

[Karhedron]

In America you can drive for 8 hours and still be in the same state. In Britain if you drive for 8 hours, the accent changes 4 times, rolls are now called baps, gherkins are called wallies  and people will happily go to war over whether you put the cream or jam on your scone first (and also can't agree on how to pronounce "scone" either). 

[Mazer Rackham]

20 minutes ago, Domhnall said:

However, when the French language (Normans I'm sure)

 

Nah man, Norman French stopped translating for GW in 1993 after the WD 101 Compendium, and went on to become General Manger of WHW in Nottingham until 2001.

 

5 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

And people will happily go to war over whether you put the cream or jam on your scone first...

 

Them's bold words for someone in Longbow range. 

[LameBeard]

This war happens in my own family. You can see where Jonathan Swift got his inspiration.

[Orange Knight]

It's Cream 1st and then Jam.

 

Only Heretics disagree and they should be put to the flame 

[Halandaar]

17 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I still can't get my head round the fact that Black Library can't work out if the Imperium uses the Metric or Imperial measurement systems. Every author seems to have a preference, it was particularly jarring in the War of the Beast books when the same characters would skip between the two between books.

 

2 hours ago, LameBeard said:

Probably because that’s what it’s like living in Britain. You can’t walk 100 yards down the street without it changing to metres and back. We use both systems simultaneously, badly. An even when we use Imperial we use it in a different manner from esteemed North American cousins. Like measuring a person’s weight in pounds - we have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Exactly right. We measure peoples height in feet/inches but furniture in mm, road distances in miles but sport distances in meters (except for football which is yards?), Petrol in gallons, soft drinks in litres, beer in pints (but only when it's in a glass, we use ml if it's in a can or a bottle). Food in grams/kilos, people in stones/pounds. BL is spot on in that respect 

[Mazer Rackham]

10 hours ago, Halandaar said:

Exactly right. We measure peoples height in feet/inches but furniture in mm, road distances in miles but sport distances in meters (except for football which is yards?), Petrol in gallons, soft drinks in litres, beer in pints (but only when it's in a glass, we use ml if it's in a can or a bottle). Food in grams/kilos, people in stones/pounds. BL is spot on in that respect 

 

Regardless, there's only one measurement that matters:

 

Spoiler

Heresy.

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

But it's not like that in BL books. That would make some semblance of sense. It's that in one book, EVERYTHING is metric, and in the next everything is Imperial. That's why it was so jarring in TBA, one book the space battles are all in KM, in the next book, the very same ships are fighting in miles.

[Machine God]

1 hour ago, Mazer Rackham said:

 

Regardless, there's only one measurement that matters:

 

  Hide contents

Heresy.

 

 

Metric was championed by Napoleon but the decimal metric system was invented by the English Bishop John Wilkins in 1668.