Keeping Crusade Alive When 10th Drops

[ThePenitentOne]

So I've posted in a few threads, reacting to the news of 10th; undoubtedly many Fraters have read those posts and know my feelings. Those reactionary posts sometimes have a negative tone- I've tried to dial it back, but I've still felt really ready to stop doing that. A few fraters have given me some feedback which may have provided a way to help me do that.

 

When 10th comes, it may or may not have something resembling Crusade. If it does, whatever that is won't be what Crusade is now- it's so integrated with the rules that it can't be extracted as is and dropped into a new edition. For those who love, or even like Crusade as it is, preserving it with the rules of 9th is the only real way to keep it alive.

 

It occurs to me that this is exactly the kind of thing we could do on a forum. It also occurs to me that doing that may be more positive and productive than continuing to gnash my teeth about edition churn. So that's what this thread is about. Here are a few questions to get it moving:

 

1. Content Validity document be damned, Rogue Traders have Crusade content, as well as valid rules via the Warcom download. Inquisition rules as written in Octarius 2 were not perfect, but they were official, so they are serviceable. But they never had Crusade content... Making them they only faction without Crusade content. So as a start, would people be interested in developing Crusade content for the Inquisition as described in Octarius?

 

2. When 10th drops, any new units would need 9th ed rules equivalents so that they could be incorporated into Crusade armies. So would people be interested in 9th ed versions of rules for units that are new in 10th?

 

3. If new factions drop in 10th- Traitor Guard, Emperor's Children and Dark Mechanicum are all possible- those entire dexes will need 9th ed equivalents, including Crusade content. So would folks be interested in that?

 

4. The other option is to try and put Crusade into 10th. For me, this isn't optimal I have 9 dexes and a supplement, I'm looking to buy 3 more dexes before the edition ends. I'm not able to buy those 13 books, plus core rules, plus the inevitable campaign books again. Not only that, we'd be trapped waiting until each 10th dex drops before its Crusade content could be developed. And finally it is likely that 10th will try to include something like Crusade, which will probably be streamlined to the point where it won't satisfy those who like Crusade as is. But this is still a thing that people may want to discuss.  

 

So there it is. Any thoughts?

[WrathOfTheLion]

As my personal opinion, I do think Crusade will still exist in 10E. Sigmar has Path to Glory, and I think overall some mechanism in that regard is here to stay.

 

It may be different, however. I suspect they're going to address the fundamental issue with cumulative empowerment, which while fun, I don't think is sustainable unless you reset it every now and then at least.

Edited February 12, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[ThePenitentOne]

I tried to figure out the Path to Glory thing. I have no knowledge of AoS, so I couldn't tell whether the apparent oversimplified system had more to do with the mechanics of AoS, or if the narrative system itself was the thing that seemed simple. Maybe I should dig out a WD that has some Path to Glory stuff in it and look at it with fresh eyes to try and figure out whether it's as interesting as the bespoke long term goals in Crusade.

 

I certainly think there's a good chance it will be the model for 10th's narrative system because it seemed simpler. Maybe someone who knows how Path to Glory works could give a bit of a description to compare and contrast with Crusade?

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I haven't seriously looked at Path To Glory since mid way through AoS 2E, but from what I recall of the latest Gargant book there's still a lot of fun to be had there. Units gain XP, you have bespoke rules for a force and how they tend to wage war. The Gargants are all about staking claim to a territory and eating/fighting everything on it, and I think they had an ongoing mission where they are looking for booze, and you have a counter going up and down that adds to the roll based on your battles.

 

Aside from having to buy all the books again, and any core rules that might change the experience, if they're going for an AoS approach there should still be some sort of relatively fluffy and chunky narative component to play in. I say this as someone who is as frustrated as you, but from a different angle. With GW deciding to do away with PDFs they literally don't sell a version of their 40K rules that a totally blind person like myself can read. I can't even access the latest codexes and AoO books until they hit The Sight That Must Not Be Named.

[Redcomet]

Shouldn’t we at least wait to see what is released before clamoring that the sky is falling? 

[MARK0SIAN]

I think you’re making a giant assumption that crusade won’t be compatible with the rules of 10th edition. Nothing we’ve heard about the rumours would suggest crusade wouldn’t work other than needing a few tweaks. You could probably even make crusade playable with 7th edition’s core rules if you tweaked the stats and bonuses into their old forms. 
 

What specific 9th edition rules are you worried about being removed or altered that would make crusade unplayable? it’s possible crusade will literally just slot into 10th edition or even that whatever they choose for 10th edition is even better for your crusading needs than what 9th offers.

[ThePenitentOne]

5 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

What specific 9th edition rules are you worried about being removed or altered that would make crusade unplayable? it’s possible crusade will literally just slot into 10th edition or even that whatever they choose for 10th edition is even better for your crusading needs than what 9th offers.

 

So if 10th is a reset that comes with indexes, a great many things in Crusade won't work until a faction gets it's own dex- in particular, requisitions that advance a character to master status, or a unit to favoured unit status. Character master upgrades and favoured units won't exist until your faction gets a dex. I don't think psychic upgrades will work until your faction gets a dex, and possibly not even then if the system is altered. Anything that interacts with strat use (usually use x strat for zero or reduced cost) certainly won't work. Prayer or Rite upgrades won't work until dexes are available... and possibly not even then if system is altered. Any battle honour that confers a modifier to roll won't work unless that type of modifier continues to exist. Strat based character upgrades, which are permanent in Crusade, are unlikely to work. So that's a list of things that EVERY faction has which are either unlikely to work either until a faction gets its dex or at all.

 

Then there are the faction specific things- Deathwatch Specialism requisition comes to mind. Blessings of the faithful for sisters. 

 

 

[Redcomet]

2 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

So if 10th is a reset that comes with indexes, a great many things in Crusade won't work until a faction gets it's own dex- in particular, requisitions that advance a character to master status, or a unit to favoured unit status. Character master upgrades and favoured units won't exist until your faction gets a dex. I don't think psychic upgrades will work until your faction gets a dex, and possibly not even then if the system is altered. Anything that interacts with strat use (usually use x strat for zero or reduced cost) certainly won't work. Prayer or Rite upgrades won't work until dexes are available... and possibly not even then if system is altered. Any battle honour that confers a modifier to roll won't work unless that type of modifier continues to exist. Strat based character upgrades, which are permanent in Crusade, are unlikely to work. So that's a list of things that EVERY faction has which are either unlikely to work either until a faction gets its dex or at all.

 

Then there are the faction specific things- Deathwatch Specialism requisition comes to mind. Blessings of the faithful for sisters. 

 

 

If.

 

The keyword is IF. 
 

And if it does change, who is to say it won’t be better?

 

[MARK0SIAN]

12 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

So if 10th is a reset that comes with indexes, a great many things in Crusade won't work until a faction gets it's own dex- in particular, requisitions that advance a character to master status, or a unit to favoured unit status. Character master upgrades and favoured units won't exist until your faction gets a dex. I don't think psychic upgrades will work until your faction gets a dex, and possibly not even then if the system is altered. Anything that interacts with strat use (usually use x strat for zero or reduced cost) certainly won't work. Prayer or Rite upgrades won't work until dexes are available... and possibly not even then if system is altered. Any battle honour that confers a modifier to roll won't work unless that type of modifier continues to exist. Strat based character upgrades, which are permanent in Crusade, are unlikely to work. So that's a list of things that EVERY faction has which are either unlikely to work either until a faction gets its dex or at all.

 

Then there are the faction specific things- Deathwatch Specialism requisition comes to mind. Blessings of the faithful for sisters. 

 

 

Yeah but everything you say is only until you get a codex. There’s nothing about a new edition that stops it functionally working. 
 

Your initial argument was that crusade won’t be compatible with 10th when in reality it’s just not compatible with indexes (which is itself just a rumour), unless those indexes support it. 
 

I get you’re worried about something you love going but I honestly think you’re giving yourself a lot of worry that could be for nothing. 

[alfred_the_great]

4 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Shouldn’t we at least wait to see what is released before clamoring that the sky is falling? 

New to the 40k/30k internet are we?

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

I’m cautiously optimistic at the moment, given that AoS3 path to glory is at least more fleshed out and engaging than AoS2’s. 2’s was pretty bare-bones but 3’s took a step toward 9th’s crusade rules. 
 

That said, if the 10th crusade rules (or the 10th rules generally) are a major letdown, I’m willing to be involved in  developing crusade rules for factions like the Inquisition and EC to use in 9th and developing 9th edition datasheets for new units. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think crusade will stick around the only popular negative opinion on it that I am aware of has more to do with where GW decided to put the crusade rules. The rules don't appear to be tied to stratagems (I only have 5 codex this edition), and warlord traits are easy enough to port over. I don't think you'll have many issues even with some drastic changes. To be honest I think the requisitions will feel more impactful with less stratagems and fraction rules. 

 

If you're concerned about its future start making battle reports and post about what requisitions you're planning on taking as your gain experience. The more discussions about it the better.

[Noserenda]

Crusade isnt entirely system agnostic but its pretty close, and unless things change quite a lot it shouldnt take long to adapt it, certainly i got about halfway through converting it to AoD2 before my group lost interest in the system and it was just a case of aligning the stats a bit on things.

We played quite a bit of Path to glory before the army books were available for most players and its pretty good, its broadly simpler than crusade except the casualty tracking, which is bone. I think quests are better than the reskinned secondary missions (I forget the term and im lazy :D ) and the unit XP giving you essentially once per game stratagems is better balanced than improving a unit permanently. Characters just getting a warlord trait after a few games is rubbish though. Oh, though advancing a character to a bigger datasheet (Like a mounted version) is nice as an option.

Hope that helps :D 

[ThePenitentOne]

The difference in Path to Glory between AoS editions explains a lot- I bet the last example I looked at was from a previous edition. I surfed around for a while after a few of these posts, and it doesn't look as bad now as it did before.

 

It's also fair to say that I may be worrying prematurely- at this point, I'm taking the Index rumour pretty seriously- to the point where I haven't been thinking about whether a soft reboot could keep me around... and the truth is, it might. Books are a lot of money when you cost out the entire stack, but when you divide those costs into a book every month or two it isn't as bad. 

 

@Redcomet A few of the items mentioned in my post are incompatibilities- as Noserenda says, it isn't entirely system agnostic... but it is a bit closer than I initially thought, and the most recent version of Path to Glory, as mentioned above, looks better than I gave it credit for. As for the Index issue- I can't imagine a way that index armies could  support Crusade, and for some armies ie. the last 3 dexes to be printed in 10th- the wait for your dex solution is essentially the death of Crusade. Even this edition, I think it's fair to say World Eaters and Votann were shafted, not just by Crusade, but by the game as whole. Even the guard were done dirty by Crusade.

 

@Brother Captain Vakarian Thanks for engaging with the central premise of the thread. Inquisition need Crusade rules even in the perfect world where 10th is roses and butterflies without an index reset and existing Crusade content slotting in seamlessly, so that is something that's definitely in my future one way or the other. And I'd be happy to have anyone aboard. I may start putting some thought into that later in the week.

 

@Jorin Helm-splitter This is something I've been thinking about for a couple weeks. My store is running a small, slow grow right now, and I'm trying to get into the ring with my Drukhari- I have enough painted to play the first few Wych Cult arena battles, but those won't suit the store games because they are unconventional battles. That means painting up some Kabal units, and that has been a hurtle so far... But this push might see me make some steps in a positive direction very soon- I've got a Medusae and a Sslyth to build. And there is definitely some easy painting I could do on a Kabalite unit. 

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

@ThePenitentOne let me know what you decide to do about Inquisition rules. I would be happy to be involved even if it’s just to review and comment. I probably won’t be jumping into doing any major work on rules myself until I get a look at what 10th actually has to offer, but in the meantime I’m more than happy to be involved in projects like Inquisition rules. 

[Brother Casman]

There's been a little update for Imperial Agents on the Warhammer Community: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/02/13/imperial-agents-datasheet-inquisitors-and-assassins-join-the-battle-against-the-arks-of-omen/

 

Might be useful?

[Bryan Blaire]

If it does completely go, then if you start doing some homebrew 10th Edition rules for Crusade, then the Homebrew forum here seems like it would be a great place to grow that concept.

[ThePenitentOne]

The new data sheets give me a good starting point. The Imperial Agent faction Keyword is a real win for the Inquisition. You can now field an actual Inquisition Patrol using either Voidsmen or Breachers as your troops. This is a huge step in the right direction, even if the datasheets don't go as far as we want. 

 

What I'm thinking for Crusade is an investigation system, where you're required to start with Inquisition, and as their investigation gathers steam (ie. accumulate investigation points by facing quarry units in battle), you can begin to add more and more Chamber Militant units to your army.

 

There would also be a provision for radical vs. puritan- radicals could access some equipment from non-Imperial lists, but there is a potential backlash from the Inquisition if things don't work out.

[Arkangilos]

So the think about Crusade is that it is for narrative type games, meaning it isn't for competitive play, which means you don't have to even have official endorsement for it. Just talk to your fellow players and see what rules work and what they are willing to go with.

 

This is one of the bad symptoms of competitive play and an overreliance on rules. It makes people think they have to be purely by the book to use the book for fun. Just communicate with your fellow gamer and have a good time.