'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

This may be a little harsh, no? I mean we are talking about over-the-top science fantasy here happening 28000 years in the future, assuming this is an extension of our universe. It is possible that he's just having fun with bits of in-universe linguistic grandstanding. After all most characters, real and warp-based think of themselves as having cosmic significance, with eye-wateringly grandiose language in tow. 

And yet, it's only Abnett that's writes this way.

[Von Großschmitt]

I finally managed to finish the second half of the novel yesterday in two or three sessions, and oh boy. While I do get some of the criticisms, Dan still doesn't disappoint.

 

Spoiler

Reading the first half of the novel, I was (positively) surprised that Abnett didn't come up with his (sometimes) random curveballs. Yeah, he included his usual meta-references, comic book moments, and sometimes, the language bordered on self-indulgence. But in the vast, vast majority of cases, he hits the mark. And he does check off the boxes: Horus does in fact lower the shields voluntarily (if you will), Malcador sits on the throne, the Emperor et al teleport onto the Vengeful Spirit... It's all there.

 

And then, Abnett does throw his usual curveball, and in a really not so subtle way the last 100 or 200 pages: The Emperor is supposed to become the Dark King. Question is: "Just as planned"? If so, why would the "four figures" be gleefully laughing? 

 

Anyways, I really, really enjoyed the Malcador parts and characterization of the Emperor via others' POVs (compared to, say, what ADB sometimes tends to do). Abnett also handled the Argonauts portions of the novel rather well. Hells, Abnett even succeeded in making the Dark Angels enjoyable (something basically unheard of in the HH). I dare even admit I enjoyed the whole Sindermann shtick, although it does carry on for too long.

 

Overall, the more disappointing parts to me felt rather minor:

 

• Fo and Andromeda outsmarting Amon and the Custodes felt *really* off. It's far from being as bad as GMcN having an unarmored World Eater tear out a Custodian's heart, but that shouldn't be the yardstick.
• Could have done without some of the vignettes. At least Dan dedicates a couple of lines to Barthusa. Here's to hoping Yasu Nagasena gets his appearance in the concluding four or five SoT novels. ;-)
• The Rann/Zephon stuff didn't really bring anything to the table. Which would be fine (I, for one, am not too unhappy about the novel being split in at the very least two parts) if not for the absolutely non-existent characterization of at least the latter. 
• No Sigismund to be found, anywhere. 

Still need to process this one, but overall, I'm quite happy and, flaws or not, I feel that the conclusion to the Heresy is in good hands.

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

 

18 minutes ago, Scribe said:

And yet, it's only Abnett that's writes this way.

 

Well I hope that the language didn't distract from the telling, which I think is mostly good and moves things along, even if not in a straight line.

[Scribe]

35 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

 

Well I hope that the language didn't distract from the telling, which I think is mostly good and moves things along, even if not in a straight line.

 

It absolutely does, but then again perhaps I just need to brush up on my Sanskrit? :D

 

Oops, heres another one, maybe I need to brush up my Persian as well, or is it Turkish?

 

As if any of this would have lasted up till the year 30000 anyway.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Scribe

[Lord_Caerolion]

1 hour ago, tgcleric said:

Grandiose is 30k/40k.

 

Also, for the sake of this discussion let's keep to simpler words. Maybe next time just say "someone leaning into smarty, big, and me-happy"

 

Whether or not it works for you, Abnett made a deliberate stylistic choice that is consistent both in lore and theme. Pretty hard to argue its just to show off big words (dude has 50+ novels he isn't showing off)

 

He wanted to make sections of the novel unique, and highlight the baroque and grandiose feel.

How is it “consistent with lore and theme” if we’re up to the final book in a 50/60 entry series, and this is the first time that this criticism is being levelled? 

 

Yes, 30k is grandiose, but it’s managed to be grandiose thus far without the author deliberately searching out the most obscure synonyms possible. 

[lansalt]

Abnett has done this before in previous books like Legion or Prospero Burns. It's nothing new.

[tgcleric]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

And yet, it's only Abnett that's writes this way.

You think Abnett is the only good writer in the BL?

[63-19]

Yes, let's keep talking in circles over and over. It really adds to the discussion.

[Scribe]

23 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

You think Abnett is the only good writer in the BL?

 

Thats a very curious way to 100% intentionally misread something. Well done.

[Moonreaper666]

4 hours ago, Von Großschmitt said:

I finally managed to finish the second half of the novel yesterday in two or three sessions, and oh boy. While I do get some of the criticisms, Dan still doesn't disappoint.

 

  Hide contents

Reading the first half of the novel, I was (positively) surprised that Abnett didn't come up with his (sometimes) random curveballs. Yeah, he included his usual meta-references, comic book moments, and sometimes, the language bordered on self-indulgence. But in the vast, vast majority of cases, he hits the mark. And he does check off the boxes: Horus does in fact lower the shields voluntarily (if you will), Malcador sits on the throne, the Emperor et al teleport onto the Vengeful Spirit... It's all there.

 

And then, Abnett does throw his usual curveball, and in a really not so subtle way the last 100 or 200 pages: The Emperor is supposed to become the Dark King. Question is: "Just as planned"? If so, why would the "four figures" be gleefully laughing? 

 

Anyways, I really, really enjoyed the Malcador parts and characterization of the Emperor via others' POVs (compared to, say, what ADB sometimes tends to do). Abnett also handled the Argonauts portions of the novel rather well. Hells, Abnett even succeeded in making the Dark Angels enjoyable (something basically unheard of in the HH). I dare even admit I enjoyed the whole Sindermann shtick, although it does carry on for too long.

 

Overall, the more disappointing parts to me felt rather minor:

 

• Fo and Andromeda outsmarting Amon and the Custodes felt *really* off. It's far from being as bad as GMcN having an unarmored World Eater tear out a Custodian's heart, but that shouldn't be the yardstick.
• Could have done without some of the vignettes. At least Dan dedicates a couple of lines to Barthusa. Here's to hoping Yasu Nagasena gets his appearance in the concluding four or five SoT novels. ;-)
• The Rann/Zephon stuff didn't really bring anything to the table. Which would be fine (I, for one, am not too unhappy about the novel being split in at the very least two parts) if not for the absolutely non-existent characterization of at least the latter. 
• No Sigismund to be found, anywhere. 

Still need to process this one, but overall, I'm quite happy and, flaws or not, I feel that the conclusion to the Heresy is in good hands.

 

 

Spoiler

-The Emperor COULD HAVE BEEN a Chaos God IF he became like them. He refuse, allowing Horus or Abaddon to become the Dark King 5th Chaos God instead

 

-Fo is a very dangerous individual due to his wit. That's why Horus and the Luna Wolves were sent to capture him in the first place

 

-I think everyone is tired of Sigismund's Plot Armor while Rahn and Zephon CAN DIE and be replaced by other Marines whom take their names (just like Archamus)

 

-I like how Abaddon killed 'Fafnir Rahn' showing just how brutal the fighting is that only the most elite of elite (Sigismund) can survive the Siege through skill, everyone else is just lucky

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Thats a very curious way to 100% intentionally misread something. Well done.

 

All the comments about wanting authors to use like 5th grade vocabulary are incredibly bad faith and disingenuous as well. Just seems to be the style of the poster.

[Scribe]

12 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

All the comments about wanting authors to use like 5th grade vocabulary are incredibly bad faith and disingenuous as well. Just seems to be the style of the poster.

 

Yeah, pretty interesting for someone looking for that 'deep thinker' writing style who came out of the woodwork with the final few books of the series as an Abnett super fan.

 

Not weird at all.

[b1soul]

His use of "fancy" vocabulary didn't really throw me off.

 

I could roughly guess the meaning of the words based on context quite often. When I could not, the offending word wasn't critical to my understanding of the main thrust. It was mostly verbal ornamentation, and hey, every now and then I'd look up an unfamiliar word and learn something new.

 

I still think Dan is the most versatile and naturally talented among the BL authours...and he's not even my personal favourite, that would actually be Chris Wraight.

[Scribe]

17 minutes ago, b1soul said:

His use of "fancy" vocabulary didn't really throw me off.

 

I could roughly guess the meaning of the words based on context quite often. When I could not, the offending word wasn't critical to my understanding of the main thrust. It was mostly verbal ornamentation, and hey, every now and then I'd look up an unfamiliar word and learn something new.

 

I still think Dan is the most versatile and naturally talented among the BL authours...and he's not even my personal favourite, that would actually be Chris Wraight.

 

The nice thing is that since he's over describing everything you dont even need those extra words, you can just keep plowing ahead and eventually it becomes clear.

 

If there is "Bolter Porn" there is clearly "Verbosity Porn" and this is it.

[b1soul]

It depends on how much that sort of thing detracts from one's personal enjoyment

 

The verbosity wasn't everywhere. I didn't do a count, but most sentences were free of it, and when it cropped up, it could easily be ignored. It's a bit like the murder-making and wet leopard growling in PB. To me, it's very far from an objectively terrible flaw with his writing, which I'll take over that of Thorpe, Kyme, Swallow, McNeill, Counter and even Hayley any day.

Edited March 27, 2023 by b1soul

[TrevorLoLz]

As I said, it didn't really bother me and at times I believed it added to the scene (e.g. Malcador's).

 

It wasn't anywhere near as prevalent as Prospero Burns' "wet leopard growl", as b1soul mentions.

 

Anyway, good book. Let's move on from discussions of the appropriate complexity of synonyms.

[Moonreaper666]

The Dark King reminds me of what Laylak said to Abaddon in Solar War and LatD, that he was already chosen by the Gods

 

Feels like the Dark King is 40k's version of the Everchosen

[DukeLeto69]

3 hours ago, TrevorLoLz said:

As I said, it didn't really bother me and at times I believed it added to the scene (e.g. Malcador's).

 

It wasn't anywhere near as prevalent as Prospero Burns' "wet leopard growl", as b1soul mentions.

 

Anyway, good book. Let's move on from discussions of the appropriate complexity of synonyms.

Wet Leopard Growl grew pretty tired and annoying BUT it was during the writing of this book that he was getting ill a lot and was diagnosed with epilepsy. It delayed the book being finished and published . So I give it a pass knowing the real world reasons.

[DukeLeto69]

11 hours ago, Scribe said:

And yet, it's only Abnett that's writes this way.

Don’t worry only three more volumes and a novella as a coda to go ;-)

[lansalt]

22 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Wet Leopard Growl grew pretty tired and annoying BUT it was during the writing of this book that he was getting ill a lot and was diagnosed with epilepsy. It delayed the book being finished and published . So I give it a pass knowing the real world reasons.

I don't blame Abnett because those type of stylistic errors, or plain mistakes like Dorn being called the fourth primarch (!) in EoE are supposed to be caught by BL editors and proofreaders.

For example, the problem with "astartesian" wasn't being introduced as a word so late in the lore. It's fine when it appears at first used by from the rare internal point of view of Custodes, as it gives them their own flavour and bias. The problem is when it keeps being used later from the PoV of marines or humans several times in common situations when it has never been used before.

[Corinthus]

22 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

For many many readers English will not be their first language.  And as BL does aim at a global audience using words that most native speakers will not know and then expecting the reader to figure it out by context alone is asking allot from your audience.  It can also heavily disrupt the flow and draw you out of your reading.  Personally i did not mind, but some of my mates ( Greece) did find it detrimental to their experience. 

 

I wonder if the translated versions also sought out obscure words to use or just made due with common usage words.  

 

I'm not a native English speaker and I didn't have any troubles reading the book. You always understand the meaning of the fancier words by context and my ebook has an integrated dictionary if I want to get the full description (which I rarely need). Also, in science-fiction you are expected to understand a lot of the setting just by context, since the nature of things usually are physically impossible so the book just gives you some names and conventions to keep moving.

 

A discussion of style choices is, in my opinion, a lot less interesting than a story discussion. Abnett took the Slaaneshi path of excess and flamboyancy and that's it.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Corinthus

[Corinthus]

12 hours ago, Scribe said:

And yet, it's only Abnett that's writes this way.

This is not true in any way for Black Library.

I don't understand why you get so heated with anything Abnett related but ADB also twists and experiment with words and style, specially in his Siege book (maybe the closing series of books about the most important moment of the setting calls for some grandiose narration?).

[DukeLeto69]

“Fancy words” are always used in SFF to add colour/flavour. As my name suggests, I am a big Dune fan, specifically the Frank Herbert books (though Herbert Jr are ok). Herbert’s books are littered with made up words or more importantly words appropriated from many cultures throughout history. It makes these settings “other”.

 

I agree on the point of words suddenly seeming to be (more) common parlance and also agree that certain characters are appropriate to have/use a different vocabulary. Malcador would one of those. 

[Inferno XXVth]

Reading the book, it felt to me as if Dan Abnett just wanted to have his fun.

 

Experimenting with words is fun. Finding new ways to convey a certain impression or message is fun. Drawing from different terminologies and lexicons, mixing them, and cobbling them is fun. It's great than Dan Abnett can still have fun while writing a book literally so big that couldn't be printed one piece and Emperor-knows-how-many novels, short stories, etc. etc. A  writer having his fun is a good canary-in-the-mine for the quality of the work, because once a writer start to simply dump words because he's contractually obligated to, you know things are bad.

[Nagashsnee]

15 minutes ago, Inferno XXVth said:

while writing a book literally so big that couldn't be printed one piece and Emperor-knows-how-many novels, short stories, etc. etc.

 

I have been thinking about this and i hope that one day we get the real story on how that came about. I cant decide if Abnett started writing and one day called into BL and said 'there is no way i can make this one book' and they went back and forth and eventually agreed to 1-? books ( or some version of this).

 

Or if BL told Dan 'Write it and it will sell' and just waited for the final page count.  

 

Did they get to 1.5/2.5 books and push him for more to close book 2/3.  Or did try and fail to get it down to 1/2.  I want the behind the scenes story on this.

 

On a purely curious level, if he was commissioned to write 1 book and delivered 3 would it affect his payment?  Did they have to re negotiate his royalties?  On a cynical level Was he having fun? Or did he pull a Beatles and write himself a new swinging pool? Its the finale of the HH the guaranteed sales will never ever ever be better or as certain for him and BL .