'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[Blindhamster]

Vulkan lives!

[DukeLeto69]

All this author comparison is almost completely subjective though.

 

IMHO the best writer BL has is Fehervari but he definitely won’t be for everyone’s tastes as his books are esoteric, full of metaphor, have extensive use of rare or difficult words, and take concentration and a bit of effort. They are not an easy read.

 

For me Abnett is next. He almost always manages to combine an easy/joy to read approach with attempts at different literary styles. He doesn’t always pull it off, but he does seem to try steering a different path.

 

Wraight comes next for me. Well written, solid, dependable. Respectful of the lore and generally good yarns. I would not say he has the same flair as Fehervari and Abnett, but you know you will get a good book that is always worth your time.

 

Then we come to ADB. Now I know for many, he is the top man, number 1, the loremaster. But not quite for me. Some of his books are amongst my favourites but his body of work just doesn’t tick all the right boxes for me. However, a major factor in that for me is his almost exclusive focus on Space Marines. I find Space Marines generally boring and far prefer human focused stories about the Inquisition or WH Crime. I would love to see ADB tackle stuff like that. So it is more the context of the stories rather than the writing itself that affects my views on ADB.

 

French is another author many highly rate. I so WANT to love all his work but...it really can sometimes be a hard slog. Again, like ADB, some of his books are amongst my favs, but I have had to put down and maybe come back in future on too many of his books.

 

After that most of the other authors tend to blur a little. There are great books and stories littered throughout the BL collection, but not really author bodies of work that stand out for me. My BL top twenty/thirty has individual works by different authors but they don’t (yet) make my list of top authors due to body of work.

 

However, special mentions to Justin Hill and Marc Collins who I think are both getting better and better, they just need a few more books under their belts.

 

*disclaimer - there are a fair few authors I have not read. Often that is more down to the topic/faction of the book rather than wanting to take a punt on an unknown author (to me). I have not read any xenos protagonist books so that means there are some authors I have not tried.

[b1soul]

19 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Whatever project BL does next, the HH white scar collection is the template they need to study, learn from and copy. 

 

Knowing them tho it will end up being the HH salamander trilogy .

 

Yes, when it comes to writing a lesser known legion's HH arc, you could almost say Kyme is the anti-Wraight in terms of quality. Compare...

 

Promethean Sun, Vulkan Lives, Deathfire, Old Earth

 

Brotherhood of the Storm, Scars, Path of Heaven, Warhawk

[Dornfist]

As other fraters in this sub have stated, it does boil down to personal preference and our likes or dislikes of each author are subjective. Regarding TEATD vol. I, Dan Abnett reminded me how he made me love and care for Horus' character in Horus Rising. In The End and the Death, we once more get all facets of Horus even though he is drunk on Chaos juice: the warrior, the diplomat, the father, the master tactician. Horus did not feel the same character after Horus Rising and he has been sadly absent for most of the Heresy and Siege book series. But it seems Mr. Abnett might show us the Lupercal of old before he dies. Seeing glimpses of Horus' humanity makes me sad and I wonder if he will exchange any more words with Loken in vol. II.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Dornfist

[b1soul]

One of the biggest failings of the HH series is the neglect of Horus and key SoH as compelling characters. If there's one legion whose HH arc should be extremely strong...it should be the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. Instead (and perhaps the silver lining to me), the White Scars have arguably the strongest HH arc. Who would have thought that such a thing would even be possible back in 2006?

 

But it boils down to a top-tier authour having the opportunity and desire to see through the entire arc, not just start it or take a few dips.

[EverythingIsGreat]

2 hours ago, b1soul said:

One of the biggest failings of the HH series is the neglect of Horus and key SoH as compelling characters. If there's one legion whose HH arc should be extremely strong...it should be the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus.

 

Indeed, this is a void that begs to be filled. The short passages in Saturnine and TEATD revealing the dynamic of the SoH need some expansion and background filler. 

[Scribe]

14 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

Indeed, this is a void that begs to be filled. The short passages in Saturnine and TEATD revealing the dynamic of the SoH need some expansion and background filler. 

 

I mean its way too bloody late to show 'evolving character' of the legion from the beginning to the end (and the death).

 

Good thing we had all those RG and Salamander books! /dies

[EverythingIsGreat]

In accounts of rebellions, the rebels are always more prominent and the more interesting party. After all they initiate the action, and there are the questions of their motivations, objectives and plans (other than overthrowing the established order).

The shenanigans in the HH started with the Word Bearers (or rather Kor Phaeron & Erebus), and they have had some of their backstory, development and activity exposed. But this is the Horus heresy. It wouldn't do without Horus and his "progeny", who have received relatively less attention than they deserve.

 

It's never too late to rectify this. The norm in the HH storytelling has been a non-linear narrative, with extensive use of flashbacks.

[Nagashsnee]

14 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

I mean its way too bloody late to show 'evolving character' of the legion from the beginning to the end (and the death).

 

Good thing we had all those RG and Salamander books! /dies

Vulkan Liiiives! And probably made a nice dent in Nick Kymes morgage. Lets see the sons of horus do that! 

[DukeLeto69]

There is quite an irony that the book series about the HORUS Heresy has not really had a lot of the word count focused on HORUS.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I didn't mind keeping the focus off Horus for the most part. It was nice to get glimpses of him doing his thing, e.g. beating up daemons in Fear to Tread or waxing philosophical over Ferrus' skull. We knew what his deal was, where he came from and where he was going. The initial trilogy does a perfectly fine job of showing us what Horus wants and why he rebelled, and later books show us how impossible a task it was to herd Traitor cats who were all incredibly damaged people with their own agenda. A lot of that - and the Sons of Horus characterisation - are buried in THE BEST ORIGINAL PLOTLINE OF THE HERESY, the Shattered Legions. Tybalt Marr was wonderful. 

 

When we return to him at Vengeful Spirit, Horus is being led down the path Chaos wants him on, fully losing sight of his original ideals and being suborned by Chaos. We then have the best Horus book, Wolfsbane, where he realises just what a fool he's been - then immediately terminated in Slaves to Darkness when he gets his soul carved out. I thought that was a good place to leave it, and I enjoyed books like Solar War when the Emperor just flat-out won't acknowledge Horus as anything but a puppet. 

 

Horus died on Davin. His will wasn't his own from that point on, and regaining his lucidity in Wolfsbane came at the cost of almost immediately dying since Chaos wasn't holding his body and soul together any more. Horus hasn't really been a 'character' and, I think, it's best not to treat him as one because he's... not.

[Tymell]

As usual, I've ended up taking my sweet time in finishing the book, and got through the first handful of pages of existing discussion before giving up and coming here to write. So apologies if I'm just going over stuff that's been done to (the) death (and the end).

 

This book's a really difficult one for me to assess, because my overwhelming feeling, beyond all else, is that it has some definite problems, but these are mostly due to existing issues with the Horus Heresy/Siege of Terra series.

Spoiler

The whole style, for example. The End and the Death covers a huge range of characters and plotlines, often in tiny little micro-chapter glimpses. Even the closest this book has to main characters often appear for less than 10% of the book's total, and its attention leaps about frantically from one place to the other. Now, on the one hand, I think that fits perfectly. This is the (first half of the) final entry in this enormous series. It's the end of the Siege. Everything is falling apart and descending into proper anarchy. If there's ever a time to employ a frantic pace, to cram in loads of characters, and to adopt a style that conjures up mental images of an epic movie bounding from one scene to the next, it's now.

 

But this is also something that has truly blighted the Siege series for me. Many of its entries have suffered from having little focus, feeling like they don't have enough of a core story beyond "telling the next bit of the Siege". It has been a consistent problem, so as soon as the book got going with that style, I can't deny I started inwardly groaning, "Oh no, not this again...". Again, I do think this works here, it makes sense, and Abnett carries it off well. But I also can't deny I'd have more patience for it if several other Siege books hadn't been dragged so far down by this. That's not this book's fault...but I also can't entirely ignore the impact it has on me as a reader.

 

The same sort of issue applies for many of the focal characters too. I really enjoyed what was done with "Alpharius" here, it was a great bit, but it made me long so much for that legion to have been given some proper exploration within the HH series. I love what we see of Horus here, how twisted his perspective is, the real tragedy of his apparent madness, and the indication towards the end that this itself might be a self-imposed ruse, but that the influence of the Warp leaves that all still up in the air. How much of this, given from Horus' own POV, is genuine, and how much is self-delusion or manipulation of those laughing gods? It's great...but I know how much more impactful it would be if we'd had proper development of Horus (y'know, the guy the entire series is named after) across the series. These are points lacking in prior material, but they still hamper my enjoyment here somewhat.

 

I like how Abnett does Keeler and Sindermann here perfectly well, but they've been shoved into so many of these books, often with inconsistent characterisation, that I am thoroughly sick of them by now. Again, not this book's fault, but it's still an issue for me. Don't even get me started on how much of a non-entity Katsuhiro has ended up being.

 

We get a lot of Oll et al. throughout this book, and as with their time in Mortis, I struggle to really get into it because we've had so little time with and development of them previously. I don't really care about these "Argonauts". Yet again, not this book's fault, but...you get the idea.

 

This is my problem here. Purely on its own, The End and the Death has good writing, some great ideas, a brisk pace and a style that fits as everything falls apart on Terra. I don't want to just ignore the issues I have with the story and characters, but at the same time, I don't feel right truly criticising this book for that since so much of it is rooted in the past, a past Abnett himself often didn't write.

 

Aside from these "rooted in past problems" points, I'll say: I loved Malcador in this, him sitting on the Throne felt genuinely poignant. At the other end of the spectrum, Rann/Zephon's battle scenes felt like pointless padding, especially since it so often falls into the "named character merrily slaughters their way through hordes of nameless mooks" territory. It's not helped, as with others, by the fact that we know they both survive. Not that knowing a character's ultimate fate precludes engaging writing with them, but it perhaps does emphasise how the series as a whole probably could've benefitted from less focus on marines we know go on to found new Chapters and so on. Huh, guess I ended up back at the "pre-existing issues with the HH" point after all...

 

All of this waffling has a simple tl;dr: I enjoyed the book, but actually ranking/rating it is very tricky, so I'm just going to do it in the simplest way, which is to think about how I came out of it. I didn't close it thinking, "Wow, that was great" like I did with The Solar War, Warhawk or Echoes of Eternity. Nor did I close it thinking, "Ugh, well that had some major issues..." like I did with The Lost and the Damned, The First Wall or Mortis. Instead it ends up pretty squarely in the middle for me, a solid but not spectacular 7.5/10.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Tymell

[DarkChaplain]

12 hours ago, Tymell said:

We get a lot of Oll et al. throughout this book, and as with their time in Mortis, I struggle to really get into it because we've had so little time with and development of them previously. I don't really care about these "Argonauts". Yet again, not this book's fault, but...you get the idea.

 

Full agreement with your sentiments there.

 

I'd still put that particular point on Abnett's doorstep, though, even if it's not this particular book's fault. After all, they're his babies, all his creations, and while we've had Grammaticus written by other authors, the "Argonauts" have been sequestered by Dan since Calth. He took time off of BL after that, and that meant there was nothing done with them for years.

 

They've been in stasis since his short story Unmarked in Mark of Calth, in early 2013, until late 2016 when he wrote a short <30 minute audio drama script... and that was literally it until the Siege. Iirc, they didn't even come back into the picture until Saturnine (although John appeared before them), in early 2020 (limited edition, later for everybody else)

 

That whole plotline has been all Abnett's. After Saturnine, he got picked up by other authors too, but only John French's Mortis really did much with them, with Wraight featuring him in five? chapters out of twenty-seven, and that book's chapters were multi-PoV. ADB ignored them entirely again. Either the other authors in BL's stable didn't want to touch Dan's pretties, didn't know the direction he had planned or Dan asked them not to, or they were simply not interested in the first place - but at the end of the day, it has resulted in a badly fleshed-out cast of archetypical persons of import that we are now told to believe are super duper important but have little to latch on to about.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Personally I have come to view similar "orphan" or disjointed/incomplete plotlines as fragments of in-universe history rather than as narrative. Granted that seems a facile explanation and an easy way out when discussing fiction. On the other hand, real-world history is working with similar assumptions. Real-world historians weave narratives based on fragmented, incomplete and perhaps one-sided information. Until the next "revolutionary" discovery forces them to retcon real-life history. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[Tymell]

21 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

I'd still put that particular point on Abnett's doorstep, though, even if it's not this particular book's fault. After all, they're his babies, all his creations, and while we've had Grammaticus written by other authors, the "Argonauts" have been sequestered by Dan since Calth. He took time off of BL after that, and that meant there was nothing done with them for years.

 

Yeah, true, that one at least is Abnett's issue, even if not unique to The End and the Death Vol. I specifically.

 

18 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Personally I have come to view similar "orphan" or disjointed/incomplete plotlines as fragments of in-universe history rather than as narrative. Granted that seems a facile explanation and an easy way out when discussing fiction. On the other hand, real-world history is working with similar assumptions. Real-world historians weave narratives based on fragmented, incomplete and perhaps one-sided information. Until the next "revolutionary" discovery forces them to retcon real-life history. 

 

I don't so much mind there being "incomplete" plotlines (though, as we're dealing with a fictional narrative which BL and their authors have complete control over, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some degree of wrap-up on hanging threads, even if those endings are left somewhat open or vague), what bothers me more here is plotlines they specifically are following up on but that weren't properly developed beforehand.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

On 3/5/2023 at 9:31 PM, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I loved this book, but not the first time I read it.  I was in a bit of a rush the first time, focusing in on Loken.  Reading that Loken was Horus' favorite son was fun.  "He is my Sanguinius" There is also a chapter that makes me feel a bit more confidant that Garviel will live through all this.  Keeler says "we'll say, I was there."  When asked how will we remember all of this in the future.  I have been saying this for over ten years on this forum.  I still have some nerves that ill be let down but..  The series starts with those words and I hope they end with them.  Loken I think he is now the first named "grey knight" ( 1:xxvi ), even though he he refused the offer to help found them.  The trademark go to Ahlborn.  Now its pretty clear he was qualified for the Honor.  He also seems to be using some kind of psychic power that gives invisibility and mutes his sound.  His Hide/ conceal game is over the top.  The Traitor stealth Skitarii are out classed by a lot.  He also seems to be sped up.  More then once he is moving faster then a Astartes should.  I also think he used Foreboding and Prescience to fight the triple team Traitors astartes.   I was a bit disappointed that we did not get any focus on Mourn-it-all but he dose use it to kill a bunch and have it in his hand at the end of the book so I know its not forgotten.  When the Teleport strike teams did not include him I was lost.  Him fighting by the Emperor's side in the a desperate last stand, was fundamental to my idea that he had seen the future in a prophetic vision in Horus Rising.  I was cast adrift as a read through the rest of the book with no clue as to where this was all leading.  It did seem to be more about Rann and the Bringer of Sorrow.  Then at the end the ball curves down in to the zone, uncle Charlie.  He had been throwing fast balls the whole time then This?  The book did seem a bit off at points.  Things seemed bad but not all THAT bad.  I had to go back and reread a bunch and I was very pleased what I had missed.  Sindermann

 

I think Sindermann in the Library of Leng is responsible for a lot of the weirdness in the book.  On my second read through I picked up that the book readers had summoned Loken to them and that Loken had pointed out that there might have been results to their readings elseware.  So I set out to find proof and I did.  Corswain yells "Awake, arise or be forever fallen!" ( 3:xxvii ) Words that came to him from "somewhere"  When I first read it I thought  it must be Cypher in his head.  But these words came from Mauer ( 3:xxvi ).  So Sindermann helped defend the Astronomican, what else did he do?  Did he inspire Rann?  Did he get in Abaddons head and make him want to go back to his ship?  Did he help Dorn not fall to Khorne?  I am still looking for connections but they spent hours reading off lines.  Hours in a place of power when the clocks had stopped.  How much time did they really spend there?  Days?  Months?  I tried to find out what the Library of Leng was and was only able to find a link to the plane of Plateau Leng from Cthulhu mythos.  

 

I am so thankful to Mr Abnett and the other writers.  Even the ones who were not my cup of tea, blessed us all with their work.  How bad could it have been?  How sad would that have been.  Thanks Dan!

 

The prodigal son of the prodigal son returns home with Mourn-it-all (a chaos blade), and a force sword.  The next book is going to be fun!
 

 

 

 

I found another big assist handed out by Sindermann, this time I think he saved Dorn from turning to Khorn.  

 

3:xxvi  from Mauer...

' Some work of noble note may yet be done, not unbecoming men that strove with gods... one equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will, to strive, to seek, to find and not to yield'

 

If I'm right then he saved Dorn and the Astronomican.  There is another bit I cant find a link too..... 

' There is a shadow under this red rock, come in under the shadow of this red rock, and I will show you something different from either, your shadow at morning striding behind you, or your shadow at evening rising to meet you.  I will show you fear in a handful of dust.'

 

 

That one is so paced full of meaning. 

 

 

On 3/30/2023 at 6:29 PM, Scribe said:

 

  Hide contents

Loken is 100% a Mary Sue, but actually all the Imperials are.

 

 

 

I can't help but disagree with this.  For years I have defended Garviel, said he would live past Istavaan III.  Said he was a Psyker, and he would become a Grey Knight GM.  Given examples of him appearing to me, to be under the effect of certain powers.  When he took up Rubio's Force sword after declining Malcador's offer for GK GM I was Torn.  My argument for him being a psyker was both proven and disproven inside of a page.  I had to keep arguing for months, if not more then a year, that he could actually use the thing before he took Lill Horus's head in Saturnine.  What makes it even harder to argue a point is when it seems you are fighting against the writer of the book.  I have spent some time digging through the books to find supporting evidence and I have been successful.  The problem is that I have also looked for evidence I was wrong, and been successful.  There is a part in the Short story Grey Angel where Loken himself says "he is no psyker"  Just because he was having a mental conversation with a Watcher in the Dark at the time, did not take the sting out of those words.  Even worse was when ADB came onto this forum and seem to outright laugh at the idea of Garvi being "special".  That one almost broke me.  

 

After reading the coment about Loken being Mary Sue I set about gathering evidence to counter this.  I started at the beginning, Horus Rising.  Very quickly I was stopped by yet another author speed bump.  I have for a long time felt that Loken was sometimes embarrassed by some of the tings he was able to accomplish.  When I have noted this it was mostly to point out that he was doing Spectacular things, and that to me hinted he was special.   Why be embarrassed by mundane actions.   Now I'm starting to see this as more.  almost as if Loken dose not want to be seen as a Mary Sue.  When Loken Joins the Mournival, in chapter four, he thinks about the brothers he is joining.  All of them are 'True Sons of Horus'.  They all have been from the start.  He will be the first non 'Son' member.   He goes on to point out that being a 'Son' seemed to give one a privilege.  Lucky to be.  They rose faster and found better favor then the rest.   I have used this part in the book to argue that Horus was dabbling in cloning to help his legion.   The 'rumor' that Abaddon was a clone son of Horus was always more then just rumor, to me.   Now I wonder if the whole legion was viewed as Mary Sue.  And if they felt this and went the extra mile to show their worth.  The next part is crazy...

 

Though he knew it couldn't be the case, he felt as if he had achieved this eminence through simple merit, rather than the atavistic whim of physiognomy

 

What is an example of atavistic?

A physical genealogical trait handed down from many generations is also atavistic. For example, the pointed canine teeth in humans, originally used to tear meat apart when hunting, is an atavistic trait in mankind.

 

 

This means he knows he has had a leg up.  This has to be above and beyond just the the Gene-seed.  Even if its just subconsciously he knows 'he is better then the average bear' (Luna Wolf/ Son of Horus).  The trait he is embarrassed about is the Psyker gene.  As a side note I find it odd/ ironic/ troubling that a 'Gene-forged Warrior-born' could feel like he has an unfair advantage.  It lacks a bit of self awareness.  Might even be a character flaw.  I'm from the hero school of uncle Ben.  With great Power comes with great responsibility.  For whom much is given much is expected.  Was Loken holding himself back from doing even better things because he did not want to stick out?  

 

Earlier in Horus Rising, when the 10th was breaking into the 'Emperors' tower, I think it shows that Loken was not the only one who knew he was different.  His best friend Vipus makes a few comments to him.  He asks 'Won a medal yet?'  Also remarks after Loken clears the way for the squad with little effort that he is 'showing off'.   These comments can be seen as just chit chat I'm sure.  To me they are foreshadowing.   The Brothers he is showing up are just rank and file here so maybe its not all that impressive but my next example has more prestige mixed in.

 

When the  63rd expedition shows up to Murder they detected 29 craft in orbit of Murder.  Horas had the Whos who of the Luna Wolves in attendance.  10 Astates Captains plus Maloghurst.  The 4 Mourrnival, Sedirae [13th], Qruze [3rd], Tardost [7th], Marr [18th], Moy [19th], Goshen [25th].  Horus puts them to a test and asks what they make of the ships on the screen.  Lil Horus questions if they are emeries.  The Half-heard says their Alien.  Loken says its 'evident' that they are ours.  He goes into detail as to the why but trails off in the middle of his explanation with an 'fought back embarrassed smile'.  He knows Horus knows all this.  Horus admits he dose but just wanted to see who else was 'sharp enough to recognize the pattern.'  Only Loken is?  Why?  and to my point Why is he embarrassed? is it only because he is telling Horus something he already knows?  Or perhaps because he just made a bunch of his brothers look silly?  Not one of these Luna Wolves are stupid or green.  He is just on another level and he knows it.  Must have made Horus real happy to know he had someone closer to his level on this.  I can see why Loken was his "favorite' as per the End and the Death.  

 

So yeh, I can see why people think Loken is Mary Sue.  Loken agrees, I don't.  I think it was Dan's plan to lead folks to this.  What the pay off for it is?  'I cant say'.  

 

[Scribe]

6 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

I can't help but disagree with this.  For years I have defended Garviel, said he would live past Istavaan III.

 

This is fine, but I'm not seeing examples of him not being a Mary (Marty?) Sue. Hes embarrassed at how awesome he is? Hes the 'first non-son' to join the council? He both is/isnt a psyker, and is surrounded by special events/actions/incidents?

 

I'm not even going back over the series, just look at this one book.

 

Its fine you disagree, and you seem to be passionate about the character, but I'm wholly unconvinced. Sure looks like a Mary Sue to me.

[DarkChaplain]

He's being put on the Mournival not because "he's awesome", he's put there because that the time, the institution is striving for balanced views in their council. He's chosen not for his major achievements, but because's he's the "naysayer" that the Mournival needs next to Abaddon, Aximand and Torgaddon. Abaddon was strongly opiniated and stubborn, Aximand rather ambivalent, and Torgaddon was more light-hearted, playing things down when they got heated. But with Hastur Sejanus dead, they had no "critic" of the status quo among their number, who would provide counter points to Abaddon.

 

Loken was genuinely surprised about his elevation. He was a regular rank and file captain, without the battle honors of other Mournival members. He was a straight man who listened a lot to Sindermann and had a different point of view, but to him, that wasn't actually a qualification. To the Mournival, it was. To Horus, it was.

 

It's like recruiting Roomsky to a council made up by Scribe, DukeLeto and Moonreaper, all of which have wildly different perspectives on Primarch battles, because you think he'd have something of merit to add to the discussion. That's not to say that Roomsky isn't his own kind of awesome, but he's being considered because he's got something valuable to add to the mix, not because his boltgun goes boom or he's inherently superior to the other options on the table.

 

Feth, we have an entire short story in Little Horus that deals with how the Mournival selects its members, with them weighing a bunch of other options after Loken - a lot of which were in the race when Loken was nominated already. It was never about Loken being "special", it was about him expanding their range of views.

 

Which is also why I really hate the "prodigal son" status he has received in the series since Vengeful Spirit. Now it's said that apparently Loken loved him most of all, he's the ideal Son of Horus etc, he wants him back what have you. Like, what? The two of them got along just fine, but he wasn't treated differently from other mournival members, not really. He's somehow switched places with Sejanus, in a way, who Horus really loved, and for two or so centuries at least.

[Scribe]

13 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

It's like recruiting Roomsky to a council made up by Scribe, DukeLeto and Moonreaper, all of which have wildly different perspectives on Primarch battles, because you think he'd have something of merit to add to the discussion. That's not to say that Roomsky isn't his own kind of awesome, but he's being considered because he's got something valuable to add to the mix, not because his boltgun goes boom or he's inherently superior to the other options on the table.

 

The only take away I have here, is that I am Abaddon...

[Roomsky]

DarkChaplain: "Mournival, we are having a 'best primarch' discussion"

Roomsky: "This is inane and I refuse to participate."

DarkChaplain: "Truly you are my most favoured Frater."

 

I always hesitate to brand a character in a Sue, but Loken is pretty close to fitting the bill. He's inexplicably beloved by the canon's big players and only seems to have made 1 mistake of consequence (letting Mersadie onto the Phalanx,) and even that is because Malcador let him act against the man's own orders, for some reason. His coming back really didn't need to render him so boring either; if they had focused just on the PTSD angle and gave him a showdown with Tormageddon, he'd have a much stronger identity and would have more time to develop what makes him unique.

 

I know the horse is glue at this point but his page time really should have belonged to Qruze. Of all the series' missed opportunities, that one still guts me.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Roomsky

[Roomsky]

Whoops.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Roomsky

[Fedor]

I don't think opening trilogy Loken was a sue, but since then...

[Petitioner's City]

4 hours ago, Fedor said:

I don't think opening trilogy Loken was a sue, but since then...

 

I might be worth remembering that "Mary Sue" actually have no single meaning, and so it's good to qualify which of the many kinds of Mary Sues/Sues tropes you mean :) 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

For me a Mary Sue is someone who is unrealalisticly lacking in flaws or weaknesses.   Someone who life is too easy. 

 

I'm against calling Loken one because he is a pysker.  He did not know it for most of the Heresy, and most of us were in the same boat.  Those of us who did think he was one were in the minority and were shouted down, mocked, or ignored.   In Warhammer a psyker will seem like a Mary Sue to the unenlightened.  If you reread the books with the thought "Loken is a Grey Knight Gtandmaster level psyker in hiding", you will get a different picture.   Like useing a blacklight at a murder scene.

 

Why was he able to beat Lucias in a duel? Psyker.  Why was he able to resist Horus when asked to rejoin the legion?  Psyker.  Why was he able to ambush the Skitarii stealth team and butcher them?  Psyker.  Why is he able to fight off three traitors when the rush him?.....

 

 

Do you accept Garviel was a psyker from the start.  From when he said 'I was there.' ?

Edited May 6, 2023 by Lord Lorne Walkier
Added thought.

[DarkChaplain]

I think that attributing those things to him being a very minor latent psyker would be downplaying his own agency in those situations so much, it'd be like gutting the character.

 

He was able to beat Lucius because he didn't play by his rules, not playing to Lucius' expectations and exploiting his hubris. He resisted Horus because he just saw Qruze taken down iirc and lived through Isstvan III, where he saw Horus nuking his friends and allies. Those are choices he made and actions he took, and anybody else might have been able to do as well. Heck, Garro refused Mortarion during the Siege, too. And there've always been people like Loken and Garro who turned on their Primarchs and kept it up til their ends.