'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Why would Malcador offer a minor level psyker, a role in founding the Grey Knights?

[Lord_Ikka]

12 minutes ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

Why would Malcador offer a minor level psyker, a role in founding the Grey Knights?

The level of psychic talent wasn't a requirement to be a founder of the Grey Knights, just the fact that they were psykers or latent psykers were. That's the reason Garro couldn't be a founder, he had no psyker talent at all. 

[DarkChaplain]

37 minutes ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

Why would Malcador offer a minor level psyker, a role in founding the Grey Knights?

 

So long as there was at least latent psychic ability, that stuff could easily be amplified by the replacement gene-seed sourced from the Emperor. That was kind of the point of replacing it, besides the resistance to corruption. The spark is there, you just gotta amplify it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The essays on loken are funny because was obviously meant to die on Istvaan. He wasn't no psyker, latent or otherwise, in the opening trilogy; he was simply a good character that we liked. They brought him back in 2011 and...did nothing with him.

 

They might have a plan for the siege, but sure is sure, there's a lot of stuff that could have been developed at any prior point.

[TrevorLoLz]

Whole point of Loken’s character in the first trilogy was to be a counterpoint to the gradual corruption of the Legion going on around him.  Him “dying” in Galaxy in Flames made complete sense - the “last of the Luna Wolves”.  
 

I highly doubt that he was meant to survive until a writer’s meeting ‘after’ Galaxy in Flames was published. 
 

This idea he was a psyker during the first trilogy is being retrospectively shoehorned in so they can give him something to do.

[Corinthus]

I agree to the point that he probably should have stayed dead after Isstvan III but also for the last decades in every medium there has been an agreement that no character is truly dead unless you show them explicitly taking their last breath, and even then some come back after (looking at you Sheev Palpatine, what an embarrassment).

 

So with that being said, if Ben Counter (and Abnett to an extend) were really convinced on killing the character, they would have probably written a more clear death, maybe by Abaddon's claw. Leaving him "dead" under the rubble was an obvious open ending, much like Tarvitz's one.

[TrevorLoLz]

1 hour ago, Corinthus said:

I agree to the point that he probably should have stayed dead after Isstvan III but also for the last decades in every medium there has been an agreement that no character is truly dead unless you show them explicitly taking their last breath, and even then some come back after (looking at you Sheev Palpatine, what an embarrassment).

 

So with that being said, if Ben Counter (and Abnett to an extend) were really convinced on killing the character, they would have probably written a more clear death, maybe by Abaddon's claw. Leaving him "dead" under the rubble was an obvious open ending, much like Tarvitz's one.

 

I understand your point and agree to an extent, but don't think was really how it was intended in the novel.  I may be wrong (happy to be), but not every death of a hero needs to be a gruesome disembowelment for the point to be made.  There's also the trope that main story heroes don't die horrific deaths, unless it is intended to shock the reader.  The way Loken was phased out of the novel at the end made complete sense - the last of the loyal Luna Wolves killed off, now the Legion is fully focused on defeating the Emperor.

[Corinthus]

1 hour ago, TrevorLoLz said:

 

I understand your point and agree to an extent, but don't think was really how it was intended in the novel.  I may be wrong (happy to be), but not every death of a hero needs to be a gruesome disembowelment for the point to be made.  There's also the trope that main story heroes don't die horrific deaths, unless it is intended to shock the reader.  The way Loken was phased out of the novel at the end made complete sense - the last of the loyal Luna Wolves killed off, now the Legion is fully focused on defeating the Emperor.

 

I’m going full “what if…” but I agree with you that usually the hero doesn’t get mauled and maimed. In this case it all could have ended with a honorable death against Abaddon and Loken becoming the first martyr or something like that. The first to stand against Horus. Loken the Hero. 

 

And that leads me to another interesting thing about the original trilogy: Abaddon just wasn’t a character back then, he was a brute that barely had lines and presence in the novel. He was the tough and dull one, the bully, quick to anger and represented by his physical force and bluntness. So many years later, and mostly thanks to ADB, Abaddon now is a calm but mighty warrior chief. He has a lot of moments of introspection about the future of the Astartes and how the warriors should lead the new Imperium, not even by force and blood, but because they were the ones that conquered the stars.
 

Apologies for the tangent but Abaddon and the complete rework they did to him, not just for the HH series but for his lore in the 40k setting, is a fascinating topic for me.

[EverythingIsGreat]

1 hour ago, Corinthus said:

And that leads me to another interesting thing about the original trilogy: Abaddon just wasn’t a character back then, he was a brute that barely had lines and presence in the novel. He was the tough and dull one, the bully, quick to anger and represented by his physical force and bluntness. So many years later, and mostly thanks to ADB, Abaddon now is a calm but mighty warrior chief. He has a lot of moments of introspection about the future of the Astartes and how the warriors should lead the new Imperium, not even by force and blood, but because they were the ones that conquered the stars.

 

I thought the aggressive bully was Falcus Kibre. Abaddon was lightly sketched otherwise, but he is interesting, and has a a sense of humor, as he is shown to be toying with Loken.

Loken as a favorite character would obviously have to have his own mini(s). For the POV of game play the scenarios involving him would be quite limited if he was to die for good just as the fun was starting. The options available to GW to prolong a character's (mini's) useful lifespan is to be a CSM or even better daemonhost, since thay can be around forever. Or a perpetual like Vulcan. Or go to sleep/stasis for a while, and more than once.

[Moonreaper666]

12 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

I thought the aggressive bully was Falcus Kibre. Abaddon was lightly sketched otherwise, but he is interesting, and has a a sense of humor, as he is shown to be toying with Loken.

Loken as a favorite character would obviously have to have his own mini(s). For the POV of game play the scenarios involving him would be quite limited if he was to die for good just as the fun was starting. The options available to GW to prolong a character's (mini's) useful lifespan is to be a CSM or even better daemonhost, since thay can be around forever. Or a perpetual like Vulcan. Or go to sleep/stasis for a while, and more than once.

 Vulkan is no longer one by the end of Echoes

 

The only Perpetual left, present day, is Anval Thawn

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Vulkan is no longer one by the end of Echoes

 

Did you actually read echoes? Or end and the death? Because it's very obvious he was still a perpetual, despite Magnus' best efforts.

 

From echoes:

Quote

If Magnus could not kill him, he would unmake him.

   The sorcerer severed the code’s strands. He pulled at the calculations, unsolving them. He unravelled the strings and skeins of the blood mathematics – a literal unmaking at the molecular level, the ­sundering of Vulkan’s very atoms.

   Physically, Vulkan came apart at the biological seams. His black skin ruptured with holes that siphoned light. These bloodless ruptures spread through his bones, his organs, his armour. What remained of his skin ignited, then blew away an instant later as ash in the webway’s sourceless breeze. A partially articulated skeleton, bound together by disintegrating tendons, staggered back as its eyeballs caught fire.....This sense of exultant pride was his second to last thought. Pride in himself, in what he was capable of: unweaving his brother’s existence, rewriting reality to obey his desires.

 

But then...

 

Quote

And yet, he couldn’t understand how the man in front of him could still be on his feet. He couldn’t believe this flayed, immolated thing, being erased from existence, endured all this and still swung its hammer. He couldn’t lose here, he couldn’t die, he couldn’t–

And then there was silence. A stillness descended across the webway, as sensory and real as the golden mist.

   The thing that had been Vulkan stood motionless in the sudden quiet. It held onto its hammer for a moment longer; with its skinless grip fused to the weapon’s haft, it had no choice but to keep it in its clutches. The joints of its elbows gave out with straining creaks, lengthening on strings of melted tendons, then breaking apart. Only then did the hammer drop to the wraithbone floor, along with the primarch’s forearms.

   The corpse of Vulkan fell to its knees beside the headless body of Magnus the Red. There they rested, at the heart of Magnus’ Folly, humanity in microcosm: a study in fratricide.

   The skeletal corpse’s final breath whistled out through charred teeth.

   There was silence. Then darkness. Then nothing at all.

   Later, a figure walked alone through the aeldari necropolis, passing beneath the spired monuments to the failure of two species’ attempts to tame the webway. It moved with a care for its wounds, sometimes shambling but never stopping. It looked more like a skeleton than a man, its blackened bones bare to the golden mist. It was either dead but alive, or alive but dead – the effect was the same, no matter which way an observer came down on the philosophical divide.

   The living dead thing would have to fight its way back. It knew this. It was ready.

   The sound of the figure’s passage was iron grinding against wraithbone. Behind it, in a fleshless grip, it dragged a hammer.

 

And from End:

 

Quote

He is but a charred skeleton, a burned ecorche in an anatomist’s dissecting lab, crusted ribbons of flesh broiled to his cracked bones, refusing to die, trying to heal. He stumbles– His newborn heart, misshapen, has foundered and burst. He falls, dead. And then lives, such is the curse gifted to him. He lives, and slowly hauls his bones upright once more, clawing at the haft of his scorched hammer for support. He stands. He sways. He starts to walk again.

 

 

[Scribe]

23 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

Do you accept Garviel was a psyker from the start.  From when he said 'I was there.' ?

 

No, not particularly. And putting 'hes a psyker' as a justification doesnt really help the matter. Its like Sevatar who I believe was literally written to play off of the trope of the Mary Sue characters like Wolverine.

 

For your sake I hope you are right and you get your pay off, but to me, Loken is just a 'better than everyone around him' main character type marine.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

15 hours ago, TrevorLoLz said:

Whole point of Loken’s character in the first trilogy was to be a counterpoint to the gradual corruption of the Legion going on around him.  Him “dying” in Galaxy in Flames made complete sense - the “last of the Luna Wolves”.  
 

I highly doubt that he was meant to survive until a writer’s meeting ‘after’ Galaxy in Flames was published. 
 

This idea he was a psyker during the first trilogy is being retrospectively shoehorned in so they can give him something to do.

In an interview recently on the topic of Horus rising, Dan describes his method.   In short it is to get a good ending and write till you get there.  He knew his ending when he created Loken.  That means he knew he would be a psyker.  That is why he can drop all the hints that most refused to be led to.  They knew he would have a near death on Istavaan.   He even forshadows it specifically.  If you feel it would have been better some other way OK.  We can all head cannon.  He also said he knew he could not make everyone happy so he did not try.  He just the best he could and wrote the story he wanted given the stuff we all know needs to happen.

 

 

The assumptions about how to make a Grey Knight are familiar.   People said similar things before it was shown that traitor geneseed was involved.   Or that traitor loyalists were the grand masters.  We dont know the details yet.  To say it's easy to replace their Geneseed or that they only needed to be on the scale is untested.  Why do you belive that?

[ZeroWolf]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Did you actually read echoes? Or end and the death? Because it's very obvious he was still a perpetual, despite Magnus' best efforts.

 

From echoes:

 

But then...

 

 

And from End:

 

 

 

Not to mention that if he lost his perpetual-ness in echos and then still appear to help out in War of the Beast?

 

That and being a perpetual allows GW the easiest of ways to bring him back in 40k (probably 11-12th edition) with the greatest of ease. Oh! Plus it means the loyalist who can return as easy as Angron now .

 

Though, truth be told, perpetuals were one of the odder things I found they added in my absence of the hobby. Was it a strictly Abnett creation?

[Scribe]

50 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Was it a strictly Abnett creation?

 

Pretty sure he started it yes.

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

In an interview recently on the topic of Horus rising, Dan describes his method.   In short it is to get a good ending and write till you get there.  He knew his ending when he created Loken.  That means he knew he would be a psyker.  That is why he can drop all the hints that most refused to be led to.  They knew he would have a near death on Istavaan.   He even forshadows it specifically.  If you feel it would have been better some other way OK.  We can all head cannon.  He also said he knew he could not make everyone happy so he did not try.  He just the best he could and wrote the story he wanted given the stuff we all know needs to happen.

 

 

 

 

This is so wild I have to reread Horus Rising to see how abnett planned the end of the 60+ book series and seeded it into the first book, as well as predicting and foreshadowing events that would affect these characters in future works. 

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Not to mention that if he lost his perpetual-ness in echos and then still appear to help out in War of the Beast?

 

That and being a perpetual allows GW the easiest of ways to bring him back in 40k (probably 11-12th edition) with the greatest of ease. Oh! Plus it means the loyalist who can return as easy as Angron now .

 

Though, truth be told, perpetuals were one of the odder things I found they added in my absence of the hobby. Was it a strictly Abnett creation?

 

He's no longer a Perpetual

 

During the duel in Echoes, the Emperor kept reviving Vulkan after his first death

 

Vulkan did not display any Perpetual powers during the Beast Ork War

 

Magnus permanently killed Malcador. Alivia had to sacrifice her eternal life to revive him

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ah yes, the emperor is able to reassemble primarchs constantly throughout the siege, even if they're in metaphysical other dimensions.

 

Why didn't that happen to Jaghatai again? The emperor could have just healed him back right away after he banished mortarion. 

[lansalt]

14 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

perpetuals were one of the odder things I found they added in my absence of the hobby. Was it a strictly Abnett creation?

In my opinion they're pretty much a reinvention of the Sensei from RT's Reams of Chaos.

[ZeroWolf]

I fear you're just reading into things as you want to see them for some reason. When Vulkan returns to 40k, he'll be a perpetual, and it'll probably be part of his inevitable BL book*

 

I suppose the bigger question is why do you want him to loss that status?

 

As for The End and The Death. I'm surprised they haven't teased anything about the next part yet. Makes me wonder how long they're going to leave it between parts. Especially if it's more than a duology now.

 

* - I should point out here that this is what I think may happen. Its a fool who can think they can 100% predict GWs actions outside of "Sell models, hopefully make money"

[Scribe]

14 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

He's no longer a Perpetual

 

During the duel in Echoes, the Emperor kept reviving Vulkan after his first death

 

Source?

[System Sound]

17 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Source?

Insert Senator Armstrong "I made it the *bleep* up."

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, System Sound said:

Insert Senator Armstrong "I made it the *bleep* up."

 

I saw nothing in "The End.." which suggested it was the Emperor's doing, but maybe I missed something.

[lansalt]

29 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

I saw nothing in "The End.." which suggested it was the Emperor's doing, but maybe I missed something.

I think it's a confusion about John Grammaticus mentioning that he no longer is a perpetual. Vulkan still is one when he talks with Ollanius Persson IIRC

[EverythingIsGreat]

That is a correct assumption I think. Grammaticus is a special case as his perpetuity was grafted on by Eldar voodoo following his (first) death, and could be similarly removed.