'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[Karhedron]

On 5/7/2023 at 1:39 AM, DarkChaplain said:

So long as there was at least latent psychic ability, that stuff could easily be amplified by the replacement gene-seed sourced from the Emperor. That was kind of the point of replacing it, besides the resistance to corruption. The spark is there, you just gotta amplify it.

 

The HH novels have clarified that the GKs geneseed does not come from the Emperor but from Magnus. The Emperor and Malcador were able to do what Magnus could not stabilise his geneseed to eliminate the fleshchange. The Grey Knights are Thousand Sons 2.0.

[Scribe]

Just now, Karhedron said:

 

The HH novels have clarified that the GKs geneseed does not come from the Emperor but from Magnus. The Emperor and Malcador were able to do what Magnus could not stabilise his geneseed to eliminate the fleshchange. The Grey Knights are Thousand Sons 2.0.

 

....

 

Excuse me?

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

Think it was Fury of Magnus they mentioned it, but I can't remember if its specifically mentioned that its his (Magnus) geneseed for GK or if he was just going to be gifted these marines as a new legion. 
I only have the audiobook of FoM so its a bit of a pita to go back and check..

[System Sound]

Heres the extract from the conversation:

Spoiler

‘There’s a price, isn’t there?’ he said at last. ‘No matter what the poets say, forgiveness isn’t free. It always comes with a price.’

 

‘It does,’ agreed the Emperor. ‘And it is a heavy price, but a necessary one. Your mind and body are still your own, but the warriors of your Legion are damned. In truth, they were damned the moment the first signs of the flesh change became manifest. Their bodies carry the seeds of their own destruction, and no gene-craft of mine nor the Selenar can undo it. You can come back to me, but your Legion cannot.’

 

Magnus felt a cold hand squeeze his heart, but his father was not yet done.

 

‘But I will build you a new Legion, a mighty host of warriors greater than any now living. Plans are already in motion to bring about their inception. Soon, you will command warriors the likes of which the galaxy has never seen, whose flesh will be flawless, whose fists are steel and whose hearts are armoured in adamantium!’

It never states that its Magnus's gene seed.

[Sothalor]

This is very much not the case. The exchange in Fury of Magnus between Magnus and the Emperor lays out that there is no saving the Thousand Sons, that they couldn't stabilize the geneseed and all of them were going to mutate and die sooner rather than later.

 

The prospect of a new Legion for Magnus to command is unrelated and never stated to of his geneseed.

 

And that's without getting into Echoes of Eternity's perspective that Magnus might have been entirely deluded and detached from reality and his perceptions of events never happened.

[DarkChaplain]

17 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

And that's without getting into Echoes of Eternity's perspective that Magnus might have been entirely deluded and detached from reality and his perceptions of events never happened.

 

...which is something I really hated about ADB's Siege entry. Magnus did not need this wrench to have damned himself, to have chosen poorly, to have committed to Tzeentch. Things were wrapped up neatly with Fury of Magnus without taking the climax and throwing it into question / retconning it. Worse, it's basically a "believe what you want" cop out after we had a factual, thematic climax long before. It had no actual benefit to the narrative.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

15 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

...which is something I really hated about ADB's Siege entry. Magnus did not need this wrench to have damned himself, to have chosen poorly, to have committed to Tzeentch. Things were wrapped up neatly with Fury of Magnus without taking the climax and throwing it into question / retconning it. Worse, it's basically a "believe what you want" cop out after we had a factual, thematic climax long before. It had no actual benefit to the narrative.

I'm convinced that he was really salty about the MagnusDidNothingWrong memes, just like completely unnecessary Corswain is there to banish DA-Traitors jokes (if someone did not get the memo by now).

[System Sound]

8 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

...which is something I really hated about ADB's Siege entry. Magnus did not need this wrench to have damned himself, to have chosen poorly, to have committed to Tzeentch. Things were wrapped up neatly with Fury of Magnus without taking the climax and throwing it into question / retconning it. Worse, it's basically a "believe what you want" cop out after we had a factual, thematic climax long before. It had no actual benefit to the narrative.

As much as I like ADB, this was a really bad idea by him... And seems like a bad retcon.

[Arkangilos]

I don’t understand the problem with that, personally.

 

It was the emperor trying to tip the scales. Magnus was a huge threat, and if he could get Magnus to return he would 1) remove a traitor primarch from the fight and 2) have someone sit on the throne that wouldn’t burn out like Malcador. 
 

The delusion wasn’t that the emperor offered him forgiveness, but some of the terms of it. Like I remember explicitly that the conversation was, “that isn’t what I offered. I offered x”.

[Karhedron]

34 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Excuse me?

 

It is in "Last Son of Prospero".

 

Spoiler

The Thousand Sons sorcerer Revuel Arvida fuses with the Soul Shard of Magnus that was left on Terra to cure the Fleshchange that is killing him. It succeeds and produces a new being who identifies himself as Ianus. The 5th Ed GK Codex mentions that the first Grey Knight Grand Master was Janus (sp).

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

It is in "Last Son of Prospero".

 

  Hide contents

The Thousand Sons sorcerer Revuel Arvida fuses with the Soul Shard of Magnus that was left on Terra to cure the Fleshchange that is killing him. It succeeds and produces a new being who identifies himself as Ianus. The 5th Ed GK Codex mentions that the first Grey Knight Grand Master was Janus (sp).

 

 

Gene seed isn't supplied by the chapter master though. He's got 2, same as every other marine, and thats usually seen as a more emergency/slow decline way of replenishment.

 

The actual source of the gene seed comes from Terra, from their repositories. Unless malcador had a huge stash of untainted thousand sons geneseed and sent that off to titan, then they didn't source the geneseed for the grey knights from Magnus.

[DarkChaplain]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

It is in "Last Son of Prospero".

 

  Hide contents

The Thousand Sons sorcerer Revuel Arvida fuses with the Soul Shard of Magnus that was left on Terra to cure the Fleshchange that is killing him. It succeeds and produces a new being who identifies himself as Ianus. The 5th Ed GK Codex mentions that the first Grey Knight Grand Master was Janus (sp).

 

 

That only means that Janus aka Ianius, the first grandmaster, is a pseudo-Primarch, not that the Grey Knights are using that gene-seed.

Edited May 9, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[EverythingIsGreat]

Good day,

 

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

That only means that Janus aka Ianius, the first grandmaster, is a pseudo-Primarch, not that the Grey Knights are using that gene-seed.

 

Also, Arvida (a honorary White Scar in whose behalf Jaghatai slapped Malcador's plans) was far from being a traitor or a blind believer in Magnus, according to the lore. He was a member of a Legion whose Primarch turned Traitor, as was Loken, Garro, and others. Conceptually such SM have proven their loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium more explicitly than members of Loyalist legions, who may just be going with the flow. Are they loyal like Loken or are they loyal because their Primarch is? Back to the GK Janus/Ianus is a good name for a first Grand Master. The Roman god Janus was also known as the god of beginnings e.g. January the 1st month.

[Scribe]

I wish we could have kept the confused emoji, and that I could apply them to the whole line of the Magnus side plot.

[lansalt]

20 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

...which is something I really hated about ADB's Siege entry. Magnus did not need this wrench to have damned himself, to have chosen poorly, to have committed to Tzeentch. Things were wrapped up neatly with Fury of Magnus without taking the climax and throwing it into question / retconning it. Worse, it's basically a "believe what you want" cop out after we had a factual, thematic climax long before. It had no actual benefit to the narrative.

My take is that the scene is supposed to show the Emperor gaslighting Magnus via Vulkan. It's not a retcon or ambiguous. The events of Fury of Magnus really happened, but in EoE when Magnus has become a Daemon Prince the Emperor plays mind games with him to win the fight. Remember also how Magnus is surprised about how Vulkan can know some of the things he says. He's confused, and this gives enough time to Vulkan for smacking him at the end.

This is totally on character for the Emperor as a ruthless manipulative father figure, also seen in previous ADB books like The First Heretic or Master of Mankind, and a big theme of the HH series.

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by lansalt

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

On 5/6/2023 at 5:39 PM, DarkChaplain said:

 

So long as there was at least latent psychic ability, that stuff could easily be amplified by the replacement gene-seed sourced from the Emperor. That was kind of the point of replacing it, besides the resistance to corruption. The spark is there, you just gotta amplify it.

 

A few things.  First as has been said.  The Grey Knights are not a 2nd Founding from the Thousand Sons.  Nor is it Known if further Generations used any special. non Legion, strait from the Emperor, Psyker juiced, Gene-seed.  That idea comes from the pages of a old Grey Knight Codex, that was in the flavor text.  Really All Gene-seed comes special from the Emperor.  This line of argument was popular back when we did not know who the Founders where or where any of the first Grey Knights came from.  Now we know that the Grandmasters were from the I, VI, VIII, IX, XIII, XV(*), XVI, XIX.  We also know that there was supposed to be a second XVI but he said,  You can take that job and Shove it.  So 37.5% (44.4% if Loken said yes,) of the founders were from Traitor Legions.  The other initial, recruits came from across, all the Legions.  Who knows what % was who.  This was shown in multiple stories in the Series.  Most if not all of these where in short story format.   There are some who just cant take the idea that the Traitor Gene-seed was not somehow flawed, tainted.  Therefore Anyone who came from that line cant be what we know as the most loyal incorruptible chapter, the Grey Knights.  This is just Wrong.  There were some issues with the XV seed but that was worked around with Janus (*).  There is no proof at all that any of these, founders and non, had their genes altered.  Also none of the Grandmasters was anything short of Powerful.  Loken was the only Latent to be offered a spot.  We shall see how much juice he has, my money is on Alpha. 

 

Having said that this whole line of thought is based in a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Gene-seed works.  Gene-seed is harvested, not implanted.  You implant Organs grown from a Gene-seed into to humans (mostly young).   There has never been a mature marine who got re implanted with a Gene Seed, not even those who later crossed the Rubicon Primaris.  The Primaris had the three extra organs implanted.   All of the first batch of Grey knights were fully Mature Astartes.  They are what there were.  Now did they get training, yes.  Was there some other way to enhance them, quite possibly if not probably.   The question is would Malcador allow someone who has an unimpressive amount of psychic talent, latent or otherwise, be rewarded with the responsibility and Honor, of Grand Master?  Nope.

 

On 5/6/2023 at 12:08 PM, DarkChaplain said:

I think that attributing those things to him being a very minor latent psyker would be downplaying his own agency in those situations so much, it'd be like gutting the character.

 

He was able to beat Lucius because he didn't play by his rules, not playing to Lucius' expectations and exploiting his hubris. He resisted Horus because he just saw Qruze taken down iirc and lived through Isstvan III, where he saw Horus nuking his friends and allies. Those are choices he made and actions he took, and anybody else might have been able to do as well. Heck, Garro refused Mortarion during the Siege, too. And there've always been people like Loken and Garro who turned on their Primarchs and kept it up til their ends.

 

'anybody else might have been able to do as well'

 

When Loken dueled Lucius, in attendance was no less then , Abaddon (the future Despoiler), Tarvitz, (the first Loyalist), Erebus (The Hand of Fate), and the two other Mournival.  Right before his turn, Erebus fought Lucius for 16, non stop minuets.  This was something they had never seen before.  None of these bodys could have done what Loken did.  If they could not how could Anybody?  Loken told Lucius, 'I can read you'.  He could read what he saw as 'relentless, extraordinary, a dizzying blur of dancing bodies and gleaming swords that rang on and on like a dream.'  That was the Only time he had seen him fight.  First time meeting him, and he read that fight, in the presence of those brothers.  Anybody could have done that, if they where in just the right spot?  An Astartes who we later find out is a Psyker did that.   He wasn't even happy that he could/ had to do it.  He was forced into the cage by the rest, telling he had to for the Honor of the Legion.  That he was the Best of them with a blade.  A blade he did not even use.

 

Anybody?  Really?  

[Blood Angel Scout]

The first 8 were Grandmasters of a new chapter, created for them, not from them. For all we know they got implanted with it once Malcador took them to Titan but it has nothing to do with the creation of it. The Emperor's Gift novel claims it's from the Emperor, Watchers of the Throne novel infers it is, by the way Valerian mentions the "rivalry" between the Custodes and the Knights claims to be the Emperor's finest warriors.

 

It will be interesting to see how Loken handles being on the warp infused Vengeful Spirit and whether or not he actually demonstrates some conscious use of a psychic ability as other than triggering Rubio's force sword- as the last gasp action of thought while Loken looked like he was about to die-  I can't think of any other moments where he's shown he is anything more than latent level. If even the Emperor struggled with being on the Spirit, Loken shouldn't be able to just walk around til he finds Horus about to kill the Emperor and run into distract him before Olanius Pious walks out of a warp hole from the Anathame... well I hope there's a lot more to it than that but how else will they get there?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Loken beating Lucius should not have happened, and was the start of the Worf Effect being applied to a character that the whole original point of the character was that he was unbeaten before his first death, which originally occurred post-Heresy. Now he’s the schmuck that Loyalists beat/kill to show that they’re a Good Fighter. 
The fact that so many other people have beaten Lucius since proves that it’s not an impossible feat that you need to be a latent Alpha psyker to pull off. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Lord_Caerolion

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm sorry, but no one else could have punched Lucius in the face? The exact thing that tarvitz does to beat him? 

 

The reason no one else did it was because they were duelling...with blades. Loken tells him their duel won't just be with swords; it was a condition that Lucius okd and promptly ignored, and got punished for accordingly.

 

Call it the same lack of development many characters suffered, but lucius' and Erebus' actually shown list of opponents doesn't paint them in a positive light. Lucius goes about 50/50 in fights. Erebus beats two complete blank slates (torgaddon and skane to first blood) and aximand, who's not much better (and also loses about as much as Lucius). It's also hard to value the 16 minute duel in context to say, alajos lasting a minute against the lion, or argel tal lasting a couple of minutes against aquillon, or the legendary over 24h Sigismund v. Sevatar showdown.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

2 hours ago, Blood Angel Scout said:

The first 8 were Grandmasters of a new chapter, created for them, not from them. For all we know they got implanted with it once Malcador took them to Titan but it has nothing to do with the creation of it. The Emperor's Gift novel claims it's from the Emperor, Watchers of the Throne novel infers it is, by the way Valerian mentions the "rivalry" between the Custodes and the Knights claims to be the Emperor's finest warriors.

 

 

Would you mind providing a quote or 2 to back up these claims?  I thought I owned Emperors Gift but i cant seem to find it.

It will be interesting to see how Loken handles being on the warp infused Vengeful Spirit and whether or not he actually demonstrates some conscious use of a psychic ability as other than triggering Rubio's force sword- as the last gasp action of thought while Loken looked like he was about to die-  I can't think of any other moments where he's shown he is anything more than latent level. If even the Emperor struggled with being on the Spirit, Loken shouldn't be able to just walk around til he finds Horus about to kill the Emperor and run into distract him before Olanius Pious walks out of a warp hole from the Anathame... well I hope there's a lot more to it than that but how else will they get there?

 

I can provide some more proof for you.  From tEatDv1Loken vs  skitarii, stealth, fusion mortar, fire teams.  3:xxi 

 

'The skitarii are from the Kal-Tag Delt sub-brach, a purpose-specific clade designed for line infiltration, and group-unified by stealth-adaptive coding.  Their power sources are baffled to mask heat profile, and their motivators frictionless and damped.  Despite the weapons and munition canisters they carry, they move in virtual silence; their body armour - layers of long, ceramite leaf panels that encase them like feathers - is matt-grey and non-reflective.  They are virtually invisible to auspex and modar.  Their optics and sensoria are particularly large and sensitive. 

 

Nevertheless there is someone waiting for them on the flat roof.  He is crouched in the rain, sword flat across his knees. 

 

The skitarii register surprise-code.  They were hiding/concealed.  How did the Astartes legionary hide/conceal himself from their hiding/concealment?  How did he get there without detection, to be hiding/waiting for them?

 

Their binharic queries go unanswered.  Loken rises to his feet, chainsword purring as he extends it out to his right.  He draws Rubios's blade in his left hand.  The Kal-/teg Delt register no fear. Fear is not a coded option for them.  They set down the mortar components and rush him.  They have calculated the variables.  They are many and he is-      -into them, without hesitation.   Blades loop and hiss in the rain, shredding armour leaves and plastek, spraying debris and severed limbs into the air.  They stab at him, they shoot, but he is moving too fast, and he is in among them, impaling and carving, smashing one skitarii into another with crushing force, Rubio's blade smokes with angry power as it slices through wiring plaits, through mechandendrites, through torso-plate , through helmets surgically fused to skulls.' 

 

Loken got the 'drop' on a skitarii stealth cade.  When the skitarii is asking how did this happen, I think we have enough information, at this point, to answer it.  My answer is psychic invisibility (telepathy),  Maybe a bit o' the Quickining?  Is there another, more mundane, way this could have happened?  He is not hiding when they see him.  No stealth tech, not from the XIXth.  No previous established affinity for shadows or not being seen.   And if that's not enough He has Rubio's sword alight.  Not in the last gasp action here.  He draws it and then fights with it.  Is that not control?  He is in full Librarian, monster mode.  He might not be 'smiting' things but is he not 'more then latent'?

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

Loken beating Lucius should not have happened, and was the start of the Worf Effect being applied to a character that the whole original point of the character was that he was unbeaten before his first death, which originally occurred post-Heresy. Now he’s the schmuck that Loyalists beat/kill to show that they’re a Good Fighter. 

 

 

I think you are right, this 'should not have happened'.  Loken was no well known Duelist.  He was not really even know at all out side his Legion for much of anything.  That it did happen is spectacular.  'Don't hate the player, hate the game.'  Now I think we can chalk up Lucius' 'spotless' reputation to a good PR team and 10k years of him running his mouth.  Only known ones left alive are Abaddon and Erebus.  I don't see them spreading the truth about this. Holding it over Lucius' head to blackmail him? Yes.

 

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

How did he get there? Warp interference, the same way he’s been being shunted everywhere throughout the rest of the book. 
 

Also, again, Loken is not the only person to defeat Lucius, unless you’re going to argue that Tarvitz and Sharrowkyn are also Alpha psykers, since they manage to beat him too?

You’re taking the first part of my point, that backs you up, and just handwaving/ignoring the rest that doesn’t. 
 

The fact is “Loken should not have been able to beat Lucius, but they turned Lucius into Worf”, not “Loken should not have been able to beat Lucius, therefore he’s the bestest psyker EVER!”

You need to take into account the “he gets beaten by nearly everyone else he goes up against”, before jumping to “beating him is therefore signs of supernatural ability”. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I'm sorry, but no one else could have punched Lucius in the face? The exact thing that tarvitz does to beat him? 

 

The reason no one else did it was because they were duelling...with blades. Loken tells him their duel won't just be with swords; it was a condition that Lucius okd and promptly ignored, and got punished for accordingly.

 

Call it the same lack of development many characters suffered, but lucius' and Erebus' actually shown list of opponents doesn't paint them in a positive light. Lucius goes about 50/50 in fights. Erebus beats two complete blank slates (torgaddon and skane to first blood) and aximand, who's not much better (and also loses about as much as Lucius). It's also hard to value the 16 minute duel in context to say, alajos lasting a minute against the lion, or argel tal lasting a couple of minutes against aquillon, or the legendary over 24h Sigismund v. Sevatar showdown.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

How did he get there? Warp interference, the same way he’s been being shunted everywhere throughout the rest of the book. 
 

Also, again, Loken is not the only person to defeat Lucius, unless you’re going to argue that Tarvitz and Sharrowkyn are also Alpha psykers, since they manage to beat him too?

You’re taking the first part of my point, that backs you up, and just handwaving/ignoring the rest that doesn’t. 
 

The fact is “Loken should not have been able to beat Lucius, but they turned Lucius into Worf”, not “Loken should not have been able to beat Lucius, therefore he’s the bestest psyker EVER!”

You need to take into account the “he gets beaten by nearly everyone else he goes up against”, before jumping to “beating him is therefore signs of supernatural ability”. 

 

I was going to respond to the second part of your statement but I got side tracked.  I also feel like you and other cherry pick from my comments to respond too but I do not do so to retaliate.  To answer you question in short.  Yes.  I do indeed think Tarvitz and  Sharrowkyn are warp touched.... psykers.  Please give me a few hours to collect my thoughts.  Its late where I am.  Also, I never said Loken was ' bestest psyker EVER!'  He is shooting up my list fast however.

[TrevorLoLz]

3 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

 

 

I was going to respond to the second part of your statement but I got side tracked.  I also feel like you and other cherry pick from my comments to respond too but I do not do so to retaliate.  To answer you question in short.  Yes.  I do indeed think Tarvitz and  Sharrowkyn are warp touched.... psykers.  Please give me a few hours to collect my thoughts.  Its late where I am.  Also, I never said Loken was ' bestest psyker EVER!'  He is shooting up my list fast however.

 

I think there is a lot of confirmation bias in your argument, to be honest.

[Scribe]

I love a good threadjack as much as the next guy.. but all this is showing is that my assumption that Loken is a Mary Sue, is holding firm. ;)

[DukeLeto69]

35 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I love a good threadjack as much as the next guy.. but all this is showing is that my assumption that Loken is a Mary Sue, is holding firm. ;)

Loken is a Mary Sue, well he is Transhuman after all! Ok I’ll get my coat on way out.