'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[Blood Angel Scout]

Lord lorne walker

 

Just reread the latest Angron novel, several mentions by the Grey Knights regarding Emperor's gift. Plenty of them throughout Emperor's Gift novel surprised you can't remember/them, was a fairly big talking point online but Buried Dagger has them going to an existing chapter set up. 

 

Ok he lit the sword again, with anger/state of heightened emotion , yet as for scanners not picking him up, not necessarily a use of them as could just be he's set a good ambush point, powered down armour or even just more of the breakdown of reality on Terra that's demonstrated throughout the novel. If there's a line missing from your quote that said something like "Loken saw the patrol flashing through his mind..." or "...he grimly looked down at his gauntlet, ice beginning to crack, tell tale sign of his unwanted gift..." then there's something that no one can dispute. 

 

As for the topic, what's the theories on how Dorn gets out of his sand trap? His own will or being rescued, cause can't remember any mention of what happened to his retinue he went up with. Keeler and the people to turn up and help the Dark Angels with the Death Guard, to relight the Astronomican seemed obvious plot point. Abaddon on his way back up to the Spirit so will it be Loken he faces off against or just get back in time for Horus's fall?

[grailkeeper]

The term for a Mary Sue marine should be an "Astuetes".

[Lord_Caerolion]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the desert is their way of keeping him out of the way until after the Emperor/Horus duel. When Horus dies, the corruption lessens and Dorn is freed, just in time to find the Emperors ruined body. 

[Scribe]

On 5/9/2023 at 11:09 PM, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

Sharrowkyn

 

Please someone tell me this guy was offed at some point.

 

I HATED this character.

[System Sound]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Please someone tell me this guy was offed at some point.

 

I HATED this character.

Spoiler

In "Sons of the Selenar" it's implied that he died.

 

[Sothalor]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Please someone tell me this guy was offed at some point.

 

I HATED this character.

 

Heh.

 

He's the guy who's lowkey responsible for there being Primaris Marines in modern 40k.

[System Sound]

33 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

 

Heh.

 

He's the guy who's lowkey responsible for there being Primaris Marines in modern 40k.

That's probably why Scribe hates him.

[Scribe]

39 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

 

Heh.

 

He's the guy who's lowkey responsible for there being Primaris Marines in modern 40k.

 

Are you serious? My hate is now incandescent in the Warp.

 

6 minutes ago, System Sound said:

That's probably why Scribe hates him.

 

No, I find the concept of a "ninja" stealth marine hidden in rafters, a being who is the weight of a car, in Armour powered by a reactor...a bad meme.

 

If he's now been tied to Primaris that's just a gross retcon.

[Sothalor]

Yup.

 

Spoiler

The whole plot of Sons of the Selenar ended up being about Sharrowkyn and buddies extracting the Sangprimum Primaris Macguffin thingamabob that Cawl uses to make the Primaris from Luna.

 

It ends with Sharrowkyn hiding away with it and going into stasis.

 

I am here for the rage. 

[Scribe]

Hilarious. I'm now muted on a work call, sputtering.

[DarkChaplain]

13 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

No, I find the concept of a "ninja" stealth marine hidden in rafters, a being who is the weight of a car, in Armour powered by a reactor...a bad meme.

 

You must really hate the Raven Guard, then. The whole stealth thing is pretty much their thing. And the Mor Deythan have been established before Sharrowkyn came about iirc. They're basically dudes whose gene-seed worked on them more strongly, imparting part of what Corax himself is capable of to them. It's a somewhat psychic gift in the first place.

 

And that's ForgeWorld fluff to boot.

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

You must really hate the Raven Guard, then. The whole stealth thing is pretty much their thing. And the Mor Deythan have been established before Sharrowkyn came about iirc. They're basically dudes whose gene-seed worked on them more strongly, imparting part of what Corax himself is capable of to them. It's a somewhat psychic gift in the first place.

 

And that's ForgeWorld fluff to boot.

 

I think the first time we saw that ability on a modern marine was with sharrowkyn in 2012. The mor deythan came out in Extermination in 2014, and then Thorpe had a short story that touched on them in 2015. 

 

McNeil is the one who introduced it, with sharrowkyn and his ultramarine series stuff. Then Thorpe and mann picked it up eventually.

 

[burnside986]

4 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

You must really hate the Raven Guard, then. The whole stealth thing is pretty much their thing. And the Mor Deythan have been established before Sharrowkyn came about iirc. They're basically dudes whose gene-seed worked on them more strongly, imparting part of what Corax himself is capable of to them. It's a somewhat psychic gift in the first place.

 

And that's ForgeWorld fluff to boot.

I was thinking Night Lords...isnt that their whole thing? Strike out of nowhere to instill terror? 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, burnside986 said:

I was thinking Night Lords...isnt that their whole thing? Strike out of nowhere to instill terror? 

 

ADB handles that well, second of his NL books I think.

 

Anyway, yes I find that without psyker shenanigans the ninja angle falls super flat.

 

I did find pretty much everything about the RG written in the HH series absolutely terrible.

 

Off topic though. :)

[DarkChaplain]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I think the first time we saw that ability on a modern marine was with sharrowkyn in 2012. The mor deythan came out in Extermination in 2014, and then Thorpe had a short story that touched on them in 2015. 

 

McNeil is the one who introduced it, with sharrowkyn and his ultramarine series stuff. Then Thorpe and mann picked it up eventually.

 

 

Gav Thorpe's first Corax novella came with the short story The Shadowmasters, which is specifically about the Mor Deythan. That was released April 2013, with Angel Exterminatus out in October 2012.

 

Considering that timespan, and the lead-up time for limited edition novellas, and the years-long work ForgeWorld Black Books have (plus the long lead on miniatures), you can be certain that the concept of the Mor Deythan was already a thing, even if public release dates were different. Just look at Angels of Caliban, which spearheaded the Dark Angels on stuff like the Hexagrammaton, four years before the relevant Dark Angels Black Book released.

 

2 hours ago, burnside986 said:

I was thinking Night Lords...isnt that their whole thing? Strike out of nowhere to instill terror? 

 

They both do, in a way. But their details differ; the Night Lords cause chaos and terror as a priority, whereas the Raven Guard are more specific and clean in their operations. Usually. But that parallel in methods is precidely what scared Corax about Curze - they mirror each other in some respects.

Edited May 12, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

Gav Thorpe's first Corax novella came with the short story The Shadowmasters, which is specifically about the Mor Deythan. That was released April 2013, with Angel Exterminatus out in October 2012.

 

Ah true enough, my google Fu came up with the audio book version (I think, or they could have just been wrong on the dates). 

 

2 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

Considering that timespan, and the lead-up time for limited edition novellas, and the years-long work ForgeWorld Black Books have (plus the long lead on miniatures), you can be certain that the concept of the Mor Deythan was already a thing, even if public release dates were different. Just look at Angels of Caliban, which spearheaded the Dark Angels on stuff like the Hexagrammaton, four years before the relevant Dark Angels Black Book released.

 

Yea, this shows me that black library introduced the concepts and then forgeworld adapted them, not that forgeworld came up with the concept (as claimed) and had it seeded years before their official release of the rules or models.

 

 

[Petitioner's City]

 

Err guys, the hexagramaton was Alan Bligh's thing, something Abnett told us when he was still down to do Dreadwing back in 2014, and initial nuggets revealed at the 2013 games day.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

On 5/10/2023 at 7:47 PM, Blood Angel Scout said:

Lord lorne walker

 

Just reread the latest Angron novel, several mentions by the Grey Knights regarding Emperor's gift. Plenty of them throughout Emperor's Gift novel surprised you can't remember/them, was a fairly big talking point online but Buried Dagger has them going to an existing chapter set up. 

 

I don't own it.  If you cant /wont provide the quotes its fine ill just let it go.  I just cant take your word for it, as so much is open for interpretation.

 

Ok he lit the sword again, with anger/state of heightened emotion , yet as for scanners not picking him up, not necessarily a use of them as could just be he's set a good ambush point, powered down armour or even just more of the breakdown of reality on Terra that's demonstrated throughout the novel. If there's a line missing from your quote that said something like "Loken saw the patrol flashing through his mind..." or "...he grimly looked down at his gauntlet, ice beginning to crack, tell tale sign of his unwanted gift..." then there's something that no one can dispute. 

 1)The only mention of any heightened emotional state for Loken is that Rubios blade 'smokes with angry power'.    Other then that all I see are calm and deliberate actions.

 

 He is crouched in the rain, sword flat across his knees.  

 

 Loken rises to his feet, chainsword purring as he extends it out to his right.  He draws Rubio's blade in his left hand. 

 

 

When the Skitarii register that he is there, crouched (to me this is more of a squat,  how else could the sword be across his knees.  I just looked up the definition and a squat is a crouch.),  Loken stands up and draws Rubio's sword.  He dose not rush them.  Dose not yell.  He waits for them.  They blurt at him in surprise.  He still waits.  He waits for them to set down what they are carrying.  They don't even have to drop the stuff.  Then they 'rush' him.  This I want to highlight a bit.  They charge him.  In warhammer when you charge, you have the initiative.  The charging unit should get to strike first right?  That is a corner stone of the rules of war(hammer).  When you rush some one next it should say and 'we were on him', not he was 'into them, without hesitation .  I suppose the Space wolves might have this type of Legion trait but not the Luna Wolves.  This could be the 'tell tale sign of his unwanted gift' you are in need of.  Its like someone spent a Command Point for him to strike first in a assault phase.

 

After the action is done he sheaths Rubio's sword and uses the chainsword to poke the bodies to make sure they are all dead.  No hacking at dead bodies till they are pulp or any other wasted effort.

 

The Skitarii in this scene seem to be the least likely on all of Terra to get ambushed.  Dan spent many words to make this point.  'purpose-specific clade designed for line infiltration, and group-unified by stealth-adaptive coding.  Their power sources are baffled to mask heat profile, and their motivators frictionless and damped.  Despite the weapons and munition canisters they carry, they move in virtual silence; their body armour - layers of long, ceramite leaf panels that encase them like feathers - is matt-grey and non-reflective.  They are virtually invisible to auspex and modar.  Their optics and sensoria are particularly large and sensitive. '  The excuses you give for how this could have happened are absent form the book.  Why add them yourself, and ignore what is there?  The skitarii might as well be Chaos cultists.  

 

The use of the word invisible is also curios now that I've had more time to ponder.  The Skitarii are 'virtually invisible'  and yet Loken ambushed them?  I also went back to re read Horus Rising.... again for this post.  I think maybe Loken's run in on 63-19 might have planted the idea of this kind of warfare in his mind.  The Elite bodyguard, the 'Invisibles', who cut down Hastur Sejanus and who maimed Nero Vipus.  I'm not saying that they were psykers btw, just that Loken has some experience with this kind of trick.

 

As for the topic, what's the theories on how Dorn gets out of his sand trap? His own will or being rescued, cause can't remember any mention of what happened to his retinue he went up with. Keeler and the people to turn up and help the Dark Angels with the Death Guard, to relight the Astronomican seemed obvious plot point. Abaddon on his way back up to the Spirit so will it be Loken he faces off against or just get back in time for Horus's fall?

 

Im not sure on how he gets out but as i said a bit ago i feel Sinderman helps him by casting a spell in the Hall of Leng.

 

'' Some work of noble note may yet be done, not unbecoming men that strove with gods... one equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will, to strive, to seek, to find and not to yield''

 

On 5/12/2023 at 5:21 AM, burnside986 said:

I was thinking Night Lords...isnt that their whole thing? Strike out of nowhere to instill terror? 

 

The Night Lords claim to have a thing for the shadows but the Raven Guard put them to shame.  The NL's are uber Jealous about this also.   

[b1soul]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:06 AM, Scribe said:

No, I find the concept of a "ninja" stealth marine hidden in rafters, a being who is the weight of a car, in Armour powered by a reactor...a bad meme.

 

As I recall, ADB has stealthy NL in the NL trilogy and Abnett has stealthy SW in PB. 

 

In my view, a wraith-slip ability a la Sharrowkyn makes it somewhat more plausible for a power armoured Astartes to operate stealthily. 

 

If Sharrowkyn is annoying for being a special snowflake...frankly, his wraith-slip ability isn't any more silly or overpowered than, say, spaceship-surfer Sevatar's "repressed psyker" ability, which seems to give him some sort of precog/speed bonus, allowing him to duel the setting's top Astartes champion for hours on end, until Sevatar arguably wins by cheating. 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, b1soul said:

 

As I recall, ADB has stealthy NL in the NL trilogy and Abnett has stealthy SW in PB. 

 

In my view, a wraith-slip ability a la Sharrowkyn makes it somewhat more plausible for a power armoured Astartes to operate stealthily. 

 

If Sharrowkyn is annoying for being a special snowflake...frankly, his wraith-slip ability isn't any more silly or overpowered than, say, spaceship-surfer Sevatar's "repressed psyker" ability, which seems to give him some sort of precog/speed bonus, allowing him to duel the setting's top Astartes champion for hours on end, until Sevatar arguably wins by cheating. 

 

I'm 90% sure ADB explains it away as the background noise masking the NL.

 

And as noted elsewhere I'm also pretty sure Sev is ADB playing off the Mary Sue/Wolverine/Drizzt type Uber characters.

[Fedor]

Suevatar

[SkimaskMohawk]

17 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

The Night Lords claim to have a thing for the shadows but the Raven Guard put them to shame.  The NL's are uber Jealous about this also

 

This....isn't true at all; its like a telephone game take of what's said in the Curze primarch novel:

 

Quote

I’ll tell you why. Envy of his mastery lay behind my hatred. I haunted the night, but Corax owned it.’ Breath hissed through dagger teeth. ‘He owned it. My stupid, short-sighted sons thought the Ravens’ abilities came from technology given only to the Nineteenth. I saw it was innate. Imagine what I could have done had you given the same gifts to me?

 

Curze was jealous, but no one else even really reflects on even the "technological stealth" of the raven guard. The closest you get is sevatars command squad being shocked at their appearance in front of them.

 

6 hours ago, b1soul said:

As I recall, ADB has stealthy NL in the NL trilogy

 

Kinda, in the general sense that they'd get the drop on their enemies throughout. But in many of the scenes where they ambush people, their prey knows somethings there. The infamous itch and growl of the power armour heralding them, or Talos deliberately making sound to alert the scouts on the space hulk; they're stealthy like a slasher movie villain. But there isn't any occurrences like what the raven guard do in McNeil's books, in thorpes books, in Haley's primarch novel, or even in josh Reynolds apocalypse.

[TrevorLoLz]

On 3/5/2023 at 12:02 AM, Corinthus said:

 

mmmm

 

There are two books that explicitly tell the story of how the Sons of Horus barely exist as group, even less as a Legion; and how Abaddon has to kill his way through to build a new army (Black Legion) from renegades of other Legions based in the assumption that Horus was weak and so were the Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus.

 

So it's not like the Black Legion is the old time rock band reunion of ex-Sons of Horus in the slightless.

 

I would even argue that the Codex Blood Angels and successors are the most cohesive "almost-Legion" after the Imperial Fists, given their shared traits of Black Rage and Red Thirst.

I think, at least on the loyalist side, the Unforgiven Chapters take that mantle.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

On 5/10/2023 at 7:47 PM, Blood Angel Scout said:

Lord lorne walker

 

Ok he lit the sword again, with anger/state of heightened emotion , yet as for scanners not picking him up, not necessarily a use of them as could just be he's set a good ambush point, powered down armour or even just more of the breakdown of reality on Terra that's demonstrated throughout the novel. If there's a line missing from your quote that said something like "Loken saw the patrol flashing through his mind..." or "...he grimly looked down at his gauntlet, ice beginning to crack, tell tale sign of his unwanted gift..." then there's something that no one can dispute. 

 

I thought I might actualy have a chance to convince you on this.  I went back to some old posts digging for something i had quoted and found out that we have been arguing about whether Loken is a psyker since at least 2011.

Blood Angel Scout said:

 

No

 

Loken is'nt a psyker

 

From the other thread this topic nearly took over, it has the collected visions quote refering to 12 marines selected by Malcador, 4 who knelt before the Emperor first are referred to as 4 who are known to him and former marines from traitor legions.

 

Loken is most likely one of these first 4, as no doubt the Emperor would've known of the closest marines who accompanied/advised each of the primarchs therefore as part of the Mournival, Loken fits this category, whereas the other 8 will be mainly librarians who had been re-inducted to normal ranks following the Nikea edict, in the same way as the Ultramarine Rubio, Garro recruits had been, hence the comment referring to suppressing their abilities and then how useful/necessary their experience, knowledge and success against daemons will be in the coming future

 

This also leads me to thinking that the remaining 8 will be loyalist legion members as, they would also have had their allegiance reaffirmed to the Emperor like the other 4 mentioned plus the fact one is an Ultramarine who was fighting Word Bearers on Calth would've had experience against Chaotic elements therefore plausible to think that there will be a Space Wolf following Prospero, Blood Angel due to Signus Prime, Raven Guard and Salamanders after Isstivan (?, no sources to hand) etc etc

 

I think you just don't want this to be true so I have 0% chance of changing your mind.  

 

On 5/16/2023 at 8:43 PM, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

 

 

The use of the word invisible is also curios now that I've had more time to ponder.  The Skitarii are 'virtually invisible'  and yet Loken ambushed them?  I also went back to re read Horus Rising.... again for this post.  I think maybe Loken's run in on 63-19 might have planted the idea of this kind of warfare in his mind.  The Elite bodyguard, the 'Invisibles', who cut down Hastur Sejanus and who maimed Nero Vipus.  I'm not saying that they were psykers btw, just that Loken has some experience with this kind of trick.

 

 

 

 

I re read the part of Horus Rising when Loken encountered the 'Invisibles', and I think I found something.

 

The Invisibles were waiting for them, and they well deserved their sobriquet.

<skipped 2 paragraphs>

Despite the fact that they had been advancing combat-ready and wary, Loken and the others were taken completely off guard.  The invisibles were even hidden to their visor arrays.  Several had been simply standing in the chamber, waiting to strike.

 

Loken is on the other side of the ambush but the same thing happens.  One side is moving through the battle space, 'combat-ready and wary/  Their optics and sensoria are particularly large and sensitive'  Loken's 10th co, Locasta Tactical squad are astartes but they are not, 'purpose-specific clade designed for line infiltration, and group-unified by stealth-adaptive coding',  The 10th is just a Battle Company.  The invisibles needed 'Wonderful form of field tech' to do what Loken was able to do with just Kneeling?  

 

Loken is an Invisible.

[Corinthus]

So, it's been a moment since the End and the Death part 1 dropped. Any news about part 2? Confirmation about a possible third part? If they are going to space part 1 and part 2 by six months I'm going to be really pissed.