'Siege of Terra - The End and the Death Volume 1' by Dan Abnett

[cheywood]

Finally finished this up. I think it’s the longest I’ve spent with a BL novel, mostly due to outside circumstance but partially because TE&TD is the longest, most beautifully maddening thing I’ve read in years. How on earth is this only a third of the story?

 

As I’ve said elsewhere, I absolutely love this book. It’s big and bold and absurd and entirely unique. I love the sense of scale, the strangeness of the prose, and the different writing styles. It has this weirdly dreamlike feeling of being both endless and all at once. I didn’t realize Abnett was capable of such a thing. I greatly enjoyed being within the structure of this story. It feels like a thousand voices screaming their truth onto the page.

 

But Is it a good novel from a conventional standpoint? I don’t know about that. The prose is often beautiful, but always florid. I know that’s intentional, and I enjoy it, but Abnett’s usual, more restrained style is probably better from a technical sense. The pacing is disjointed and the whole thing feels overfilled with content and words. Saturnine and Echoes are both sharper, more compelling stories for the most part.

 

I believe ADB has said that Abnett understands 40k, on a philosophical level, as well as anyone. I think, more than anything else, I love that this novel, perhaps somewhat unintentionally, so well captures the setting, and the insane experience of diving into the lore. It’s byzantine, filled with plots stacked upon plots, uses strange grammar, and takes a lot of work to sort. It’s captivating in its sense of scale and portrayal of the human spirit amidst the peaks and troughs of adversity. It’s frustrating in that it seeks to be everything at once, and just seems to never end. And above all else it feels totally its own. Warhammer as a setting isn’t perfect, but it is, despite nakedly wearing its influences, entirely unique. Between gothic space knights and trillions of alien monsters eating at the dripping carcass of humanity there’s nothing quite like 30/40k, and I don’t think there’s going to be another novel quite like TE&TD. 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by cheywood

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

16 hours ago, cheywood said:

There’s absolutely nothing in the text that indicates Loken is using warp powers. 

 

His powering of a force sword?  Use of a force weapon is a "power", on the table top at least.

[cheywood]

6 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

 

His powering of a force sword?  Use of a force weapon is a "power", on the table top at least.

Sure, Loken possesses enough psychic power to light a force sword, but doesn’t that undercut your argument? Loken powers the blade intentionally, meaning he’s aware when he’s using the warp. He has conscious control of it, to a degree. Wouldn’t he be similarly aware if he used his powers for much more advanced feats of warpcraft? Yet he’s as befuddled as the rest by the portal. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

At what point does hyper focussing on loken and theorizing about him become off topic? This is far from the first "loken is extra special" tangent in this thread, and the biggest issue is that each tosses out the actual plot to justify it.

 

Time and space are warped on terra. The last day is stretched, preventing the loyalists from being reinforced, but also preventing the traitors from winning. Army units and forces are getting places way faster (typhus) or to areas that should be feasibly impossible (bhab command, keelers refugees, zephon being outside the sanctum, many of the scattered view points, etc...). Loken fits in the same as the rest; maybe he's got a little latent bonus to his combat abilities, but that's it. Claiming that loken alone is able to jump distances, super teleport, and whatever else commonly happens in EaTD is just willfully disregarding the point of the entire book. It also, as I've said before, makes the book a completely plot-hole, incompatible mess that needs to be shelved. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

6 hours ago, cheywood said:

Sure, Loken possesses enough psychic power to light a force sword, but doesn’t that undercut your argument? Loken powers the blade intentionally, meaning he’s aware when he’s using the warp. He has conscious control of it, to a degree. Wouldn’t he be similarly aware if he used his powers for much more advanced feats of warpcraft? Yet he’s as befuddled as the rest by the portal. 

 

 

No, i don't think it undercuts my argument, though you do make a fair point.  He dose use Rubio's sword, 'intentionally'.  The use dose not seem to strain him in any way.  This dose not seem to be his limit.  We don't know exactly the comparison of what it might take to power a force weapon verses using a more traditional power like teleport or gate with out going to the table top.  Even if he were say just a level 1 psyker, he would have at least one other power to use in addition to the ability to use a force weapon.  We also know he was given the chance to become a Grey Knight Grandmaster, so I think he would have the potential to be much higher then level 1.  Some will say that Loken's psyker talent was not why Malcador chose him.  I know this because they said the same thing before they would even agree he was a Psyker, even if he had just turned down an offer to found a Chapter where every one of the brothers was.  So the fact he has shown some potential will join the rest, under the rug.   Loken would be like all of the lowest level grunt Grey Knights... only able to join in spells to help those stronger then him shine. 

 

His awareness of the warp and his connection to it is unknown.  We never get to see inside his head when he consciously uses the warp.  He was in denial for most of his life, going so far as to explicitly think he was no psyker (Grey Angel).  It took Tormageddon almost crushing his head for him to... see the light.  He has not had any training that I am aware of.  He dose not seem to be concerned about this.  He is focused on killing traitors, full stop.  His coming out party also coincides with a warp storm, so who knows how that is effecting him.  I think he is still in the process of leaving denial.  One foot still wet.  I think he is much like many here.  Grudgingly willing to accept he is a psyker, yet unwilling to follow it to where that might go.  When weird things around him happen, its easy to just chalk it up to the end of the world, warp shenanigans, poor writing.  For me, I look to what they all have in common.  Loken, who is a psyker.  I think, If one was to use teleport unknowingly/without control, how would it feel.   You would be one place then poof, another.   If you used invisibility unknowingly....  When you encountered people they would be like :cuss:.  Would you even know why they were surprised to see you, or even care, if all you wanted to do was kill them?  Naw, just kill them all and let the Emperor sort them out right?  And Gate unknowingly...  Where did that door come from?  Where dose it lead?  Wow, I know this place.. Strange why the door accepts my biometrics,  they must have been to lazy to change the locks..  You might even tell the other people with you to not let anyone come through after you, not realizing that as soon as you mind moves on the portal would begone. 

 

 

4 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

At what point does hyper focussing on loken and theorizing about him become off topic? This is far from the first "loken is extra special" tangent in this thread, and the biggest issue is that each tosses out the actual plot to justify it.

 

Time and space are warped on terra. The last day is stretched, preventing the loyalists from being reinforced, but also preventing the traitors from winning. Army units and forces are getting places way faster (typhus) or to areas that should be feasibly impossible (bhab command, keelers refugees, zephon being outside the sanctum, many of the scattered view points, etc...). Loken fits in the same as the rest; maybe he's got a little latent bonus to his combat abilities, but that's it. Claiming that loken alone is able to jump distances, super teleport, and whatever else commonly happens in EaTD is just willfully disregarding the point of the entire book. It also, as I've said before, makes the book a completely plot-hole, incompatible mess that needs to be shelved. 

 

I think I'm on topic as long as we keep talking about stuff that happens in the book, or close there of.  It had been close to a month before my comment about gate so its not like I was interrupting a flame hot thread.  Would be more apt criticism if you said I was necro-ing the thread.  Cant hijack an empty plane.  

 

Your list... 'bhab command, keelers refugees, zephon being outside the sanctum, many of the scattered view points, etc...' is the first time any have given examples of others spatial weirdness.  None like loken but some like Keeler seem close.  She and her group were not appearing far away from where they were just before but she did seem to be out of phase with  realty.   Not moving as fast or far as she thought they would.   Loken even comes looking for her and can't quite seem to catch up with her..... hmm  Other then we the reader, I don't think Zephon, or any with him, were surprised he was there.  Don't see it as relevant.   Bhab... not seeing the conection.    Some people might apear to be out of place.  Loken is the only one shown being one place, then elseware.  

[cheywood]

14 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

 

 

No, i don't think it undercuts my argument, though you do make a fair point.  He dose use Rubio's sword, 'intentionally'. (Snip)

I don’t think you really addressed what I said. How could Loken be unaware of his usage of an extremely involved power, while simultaneously having full awareness of a minor psychic expenditure like lighting a force sword? it just doesn’t make sense based on how Warhammer treats psychic ability.
 

I’m not particularly interested in how theoretically powerful Loken could be, or what it might feel like to cast spells. This is a discussion about what’s in the text, not our headcanon. The text provides no direct evidence that Loken has any psychic capacity beyond the ability to power a force sword. Abnett’s a very explicit writer and he’s never played or cared for the tabletop. Why on earth would he suddenly base the plot around  tabletop powers? Why would he never mention said powers but spend entire chapters talking about the warp

compressing time and space?
 

One of the biggest themes of the novel, one Abnett bangs home again and again, is that the warp actively makes a mockery of our plans, but still we must strive to act. ‘When man plans, the gods laugh’. That fits perfectly with Loken being thrust from corner to corner of Terra.

 

I noticed you’ve spent a lot of time talking about this on various forums, and I respect the right of everyone to have a vivid headcanon, but I think it’s important not to treat our personal beliefs as though they’re textually informed.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Imo, the contentious (some say absurd) "resurrection" of Loken into the storyline post-Istvan probably has to do with the character being the one who will close the Horus Heresy Series, just as it was the character that opened it. Nothing in the story's progression since his reappearance has diminished the opinion. The fact that the author who started the Series is ending it may be telling.

 

In previous lore we were told that the Inquisition's remit/charter is directly bestowed by the Emperor. It is specifically created outside of the Imperium's hierarchy and its authority over every Imperial institution is absolute. There were four civilians (an original, later retired Mournival for the undead and silent Emperor?) and eight military types. Maybe Loken is one of those. So I have suggested a lead for the final book/chapter/paragraph: "I was there he would say later, until later became the time when such utterances were proscribed, I was there when the Emperor slew Horus". Perhaps prompted by other members of the nascent Inquisition who were not eyewitnesses. Do your worst, BL 

Edited August 20, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[Scribe]

I mean you can see whatever you want to see, and I doesn't mean it won't happen, but yeah, I don't see it.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Sure, it's just an opinion. And he is a popular character that can be further monetized with his own model, etc.But all that was in place after he supposedly "died". If anything, his reappearance might have taken some of the glamour off. So I question his resurrection into the main Series. I mean, he would be an obvious candidate for a Horus Heresy Characters book otherwise anyway. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

On 8/20/2023 at 7:01 AM, cheywood said:

I don’t think you really addressed what I said. How could Loken be unaware of his usage of an extremely involved power, while simultaneously having full awareness of a minor psychic expenditure like lighting a force sword? it just doesn’t make sense based on how Warhammer treats psychic ability.

 

I'm not sure Loken is fully aware of how he is lighting the force sword.  It is clear he can, when he needs/ wants too.  It is not clear, to me, he is doing it consciously.  We are not let into his mind during, we only see the results.   He has three swords, and seems to use them all, even though he only has two hands.  He dose not seem to exert himself more on Rubio's force sword then he dose using Mourn-it-all, or the chain-sword.  He is clearly unaware if he is using other powers like I think, Teleport, Invisibility, Gate.  Any speculation on how these can both be so from me will only be poo pooed.  Guess I'm a glutton...  I don't think his mental block that was keeping him 'latent' is all the way down.  He has not quite admitted to him self he is a psyker.  I don't think he wants it to be true any more then most here want.  Maybe he is telling himself that he is only a low level, just barely able to use the sword, kind of psyker.  As long as the traitors keep dying he can sort it all out later.  He will probably die before the truth  is known anyway, right?  He is just started to crawl.  Maybe the awarness you seek comes after he gets off his knees.  You attempt to use the rest of Warhammer's psykers to gage what is happing to Loken.  How many of what you have seen are 'Latent' ?  I cant think of any.  If im missing some, they cant be common.  We don't even know why he was 'latent'.  

 

I’m not particularly interested in how theoretically powerful Loken could be, or what it might feel like to cast spells. This is a discussion about what’s in the text, not our headcanon. The text provides no direct evidence that Loken has any psychic capacity beyond the ability to power a force sword. Abnett’s a very explicit writer and he’s never played or cared for the tabletop. Why on earth would he suddenly base the plot around  tabletop powers? Why would he never mention said powers but spend entire chapters talking about the warp

compressing time and space?

 

I am very interested in the theoretical.  I have been trying to predict what fate has for Loken ever since he seemed to die on Istavaan III.  I get to discuss what I feel is relevant.  I go out of my way to point to the words in the books to back my augments.  I did not make up the Loken was teleporting around the city.  I just tried to point out who I felt was responsible.  It is not my headcannon that there was a door in the library that should not have been there.  That lead to a ship in orbit.  I just speculated it was Loken's doing.  My speculation is headcannon though, for now.  I'm ok with that.  

 

I also disagree that Abnett is explicit.  You don't know what his care of the tabletop is.  Abnett said in an interview that his style of writing is to pick the ending, then work hard to get the story there.  In the end Loken will be a force sword wielding, guy who turned down the chance to become a Grey Knight Grandmaster.  How explicit was he in Horus rising about this eventuality?  By his own words he knew the ending.  I would say he did put many hints about what would happen in the book but they were all very subtle.  I think he went out of his way to give the impression Loken was anything but special, not true.  I have said many times that the choice to arm Garviel with a Bolter and a Chain-sword was meant to give the impression that Loken was just like every other Astartes.  What other 'Hero' has no cool war gear?  Not even a Grenade..  His gear was not even artifice.  His Company was not even Special,  the 10th.  A regular battle Company.  Would make Robute happy.  It was in Saturnine that Loken first used the Force sword.  Dan wrote that,  Was it explicit how that happened?  Why was it so unclear as to what is happening to Loken, and others, in The end and the death?  Dan is still holding his cards close to his chest.

 

I noticed you’ve spent a lot of time talking about this on various forums, and I respect the right of everyone to have a vivid headcanon, but I think it’s important not to treat our personal beliefs as though they’re textually informed. 

 

Yes, a lot of time.... To be clear though, I feel my thoughts are 'textually informed'.   I try to read between the lines.   That is why I felt Loken was not dead at the end of Galaxy in Flames.  For many years I spent arguing here on various forums, that he would return.  That was all headcannon right?  To give a reason why he would return, I looked for what he could do once he returned.  To join the Grey Knights was my answer.  Galaxy in flames was released October 2006.  Legion of one dropped April 2011.  That's 4+ years of hearing that my headcannon was wrong, and that's just to have him alive.  Buried Dagger, February 2019.  8 more years to see him even touch a force weapon. ... after he rejected the offer to join the Grey Knights.... Saturnine, March 2020.  First explicit use of a force power, kinda.  By my math that's 13+ years of having to listen to people tell me I'm wrong, crazy, fan boying, ect.  The whole time , over an over, I would point to the text, on why I was seeing what I saw.  Most people it seems, feel that Loken would never see the light of day after he got bombed into oblivion on Istavaan III.  He was not a Psyker or anything other then a tragic foot note in the Heresy.  I'm sure they felt their ideas were very much  'textually informed'.  They were right on that.  The text mislead them.  I think it was intentional, and well done.  The same is happening in the End and the Death.  

[SkimaskMohawk]

You realize you're just doing the same thing as moonreaper at this point right? Hijacking and reviving dead threads to only talk about your favorite subject, discarding any material that contradicts your theories or position. 

 

Just make a thread about a loken character study. Maybe do it before I do, because I'll talk about him being a literal generic non-character that people only like by dint of being the POV Luna wolf. And now he's just a zombie; resurrected to lumber across books and have no purpose. 

[Nagashsnee]

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

And now he's just a zombie; resurrected to lumber across books and have no purpose. 

Ok hear me out, the real Loken died on Istvaan... ever since we have dealt with Cerberus the chaos daemon born of the first act of greed driven fan service. 

[cheywood]

10 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

 

I'm not sure Loken is fully aware of how he is lighting the force sword.  It is clear he can, when he needs/ wants too.  It is not clear, to me, he is doing it consciously.  We are not let into his mind during, we only see the results.   He has three swords, and seems to use them all, even though he only has two hands.  He dose not seem to exert himself more on Rubio's force sword then he dose using Mourn-it-all, or the chain-sword.  He is clearly unaware if he is using other powers like I think, Teleport, Invisibility, Gate.  Any speculation on how these can both be so from me will only be poo pooed.  Guess I'm a glutton...  I don't think his mental block that was keeping him 'latent' is all the way down.  He has not quite admitted to him self he is a psyker.  I don't think he wants it to be true any more then most here want.  Maybe he is telling himself that he is only a low level, just barely able to use the sword, kind of psyker.  As long as the traitors keep dying he can sort it all out later.  He will probably die before the truth  is known anyway, right?  He is just started to crawl.  Maybe the awarness you seek comes after he gets off his knees.  You attempt to use the rest of Warhammer's psykers to gage what is happing to Loken.  How many of what you have seen are 'Latent' ?  I cant think of any.  If im missing some, they cant be common.  We don't even know why he was 'latent'.  

 

 

 

 

I am very interested in the theoretical.  I have been trying to predict what fate has for Loken ever since he seemed to die on Istavaan III.  I get to discuss what I feel is relevant.  I go out of my way to point to the words in the books to back my augments.  I did not make up the Loken was teleporting around the city.  I just tried to point out who I felt was responsible.  It is not my headcannon that there was a door in the library that should not have been there.  That lead to a ship in orbit.  I just speculated it was Loken's doing.  My speculation is headcannon though, for now.  I'm ok with that.  

 

I also disagree that Abnett is explicit.  You don't know what his care of the tabletop is.  Abnett said in an interview that his style of writing is to pick the ending, then work hard to get the story there.  In the end Loken will be a force sword wielding, guy who turned down the chance to become a Grey Knight Grandmaster.  How explicit was he in Horus rising about this eventuality?  By his own words he knew the ending.  I would say he did put many hints about what would happen in the book but they were all very subtle.  I think he went out of his way to give the impression Loken was anything but special, not true.  I have said many times that the choice to arm Garviel with a Bolter and a Chain-sword was meant to give the impression that Loken was just like every other Astartes.  What other 'Hero' has no cool war gear?  Not even a Grenade..  His gear was not even artifice.  His Company was not even Special,  the 10th.  A regular battle Company.  Would make Robute happy.  It was in Saturnine that Loken first used the Force sword.  Dan wrote that,  Was it explicit how that happened?  Why was it so unclear as to what is happening to Loken, and others, in The end and the death?  Dan is still holding his cards close to his chest.

 

 

 

 

Yes, a lot of time.... To be clear though, I feel my thoughts are 'textually informed'.   I try to read between the lines.   That is why I felt Loken was not dead at the end of Galaxy in Flames.  For many years I spent arguing here on various forums, that he would return.  That was all headcannon right?  To give a reason why he would return, I looked for what he could do once he returned.  To join the Grey Knights was my answer.  Galaxy in flames was released October 2006.  Legion of one dropped April 2011.  That's 4+ years of hearing that my headcannon was wrong, and that's just to have him alive.  Buried Dagger, February 2019.  8 more years to see him even touch a force weapon. ... after he rejected the offer to join the Grey Knights.... Saturnine, March 2020.  First explicit use of a force power, kinda.  By my math that's 13+ years of having to listen to people tell me I'm wrong, crazy, fan boying, ect.  The whole time , over an over, I would point to the text, on why I was seeing what I saw.  Most people it seems, feel that Loken would never see the light of day after he got bombed into oblivion on Istavaan III.  He was not a Psyker or anything other then a tragic foot note in the Heresy.  I'm sure they felt their ideas were very much  'textually informed'.  They were right on that.  The text mislead them.  I think it was intentional, and well done.  The same is happening in the End and the Death.  

Again, I don’t think all of your specific conclusions are textually based or logically sound. But it’s clear we need to agree to disagree on that. I’m not trying to hijack the thread anymore than we already have and this discussion is pretty circular since we’re likely going to insist on our opinions regardless of what the other says.
 

On a more general level, while it’s nice to be right about things, do you think maybe you’re a little too fixated on a minor plot point in a novel series? You’ve clearly carried the torch for years, and I respect how that can make you invested in your viewpoint, but I feel like you’re putting a lot into these replies. Like you’re arguing not just with me, but with everyone else who disagreed with you previously.

[EverythingIsGreat]

6 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Ok hear me out, the real Loken died on Istvaan... ever since we have dealt with Cerberus the chaos daemon born of the first act of greed driven fan service. 

 

We're getting warmer... In mythology, Cerberus' father was Typhon and one (?) of his siblings was Hydra.

Edited August 29, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[Dornfist]

On 6/8/2023 at 5:07 PM, Dornfist said:

I recently became aware of the news, and I think we are going to get Sanguinuis vs. Horus at the end of this volume. As for Big E? He will be busy eating mushroom power-ups Mario style on every level of the Vengeful Spirit as he makes his slow way to the bridge that takes a whole novel.

 

Also, I swear if I see more of those damnable fragments chapters in this new volume starting with something like "They crucified Billy's homies" or some side story about random guardsmen fighting traitors in the apocalypse or more Rann and Zephon adventures...Sigh* If anything, I want to see what happens to Dorn: that is one of the few last things I care about. And while I like the perpetuals' story, I am dreading how many more pages their thing will last. And what about that potential Loken vs. Abaddon rematch?

 

I wonder if we will see Guilliman and the Lion make a cameo? Or maybe that will be for Volume III.

 

We will have to see but if this next volume is actually around 800 pages...the End and the Death for us as readers is truly near.

 

And if we get a third entry, I will post a photo of my hardcover copy that specifically stated "will be concluded in Volume II" and add the meme of "So that was a cuss*ing lie".

I fulfill the promise I made back in June today...

[System Sound]

Maybe its a typo. Knowing GW quality controll, especially the rule books that are full of them...

[Dornfist]

6 hours ago, System Sound said:

Maybe its a typo. Knowing GW quality controll, especially the rule books that are full of them...

Possibly. I still feel GW should have been honest at the beginning of the year to us readers if they already knew it would be three parts. And considering Abnett finished the writing of the story like a year or more ago, even more so. I'm also worried how much more filler we may have to endure considering how many hundreds of pages are left...

[DukeLeto69]

On 9/27/2023 at 7:36 PM, Dornfist said:

Possibly. I still feel GW should have been honest at the beginning of the year to us readers if they already knew it would be three parts. And considering Abnett finished the writing of the story like a year or more ago, even more so. I'm also worried how much more filler we may have to endure considering how many hundreds of pages are left...

Maybe GW are simply a bit sadistic and enjoy stoking the nerdrage. 

 

One man’s filler is another man’s flavour.

 

And anyway, they know 99% of fans are still going to buy all the books as we have been so invested for years we need to see it through!

[Petitioner's City]

This is a very negative thread, overall. It makes it hard to actually take part in discussion - it feels like many of you are in the trenches, complaining again and again. 

 

Like I love that there are going to be two more parts, I'm all for peak heresy linguistic and literary expansion, for giving a new light on so many familiar things (like Malcador, at last characterised in a widely read text!), for vignettes of disconnected experiences that have been typical of Abnett's city fight-style writing since at least Necropolis, for Evangelion-esque allusions and drawing across our cultural experiences, for high ambitions that try to do bigger things than any of us ever expected, and for interludes that remind us of the very mediality and indeed the intermediality of the text we are reading.

 

Far far better to be ambitious than pedestrian. 

[Nagashsnee]

2 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

This is a very negative thread, overall. It makes it hard to actually take part in discussion - it feels like many of you are in the trenches, complaining again and again. 

 

The forum should be a place for honest discussion, some times it is overwhelmingly positive as the vast majority like almost every aspect of the work. Others times the opposite is true. But in either case people should feel free to be honest on their feelings. 

 

It doesnt matter which book or author it is, sometimes we will like things others do not be it a majority or minority for either side. So long as people are offering fair and honest opinions and criticism there is nothing wrong with that. 

 

But in this case BL has done damn near everything they can do make people negative. They lied on the number of books, they lied in print about which book is the conclusion. They are putting out interviews with the author TELLING US its meant as one big story and should be read as such but are not selling it as such.   People are angry about this stuff and in my view are 100% right to be so, so am i. 

 

ps: I am truly truly glad you liked it.  

pps: 2 more parts....so far

Edited October 5, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

8 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

This is a very negative thread, overall. It makes it hard to actually take part in discussion - it feels like many of you are in the trenches, complaining again and again. 

 

I dont tread often here anymore because of this

 

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

But in this case BL has done damn near everything they can do make people negative. They lied on the number of books, they lied in print about which book is the conclusion. They are putting out interviews with the author TELLING US its meant as one big story and should be read as such but are not selling it as such.   People are angry about this stuff and in my view are 100% right to be so, so am i. 

Which probably should be discussed in a separate thread, when I come into this section I'm expecting oh I dunno actual discussion about what's in the book instead of what BL is doing wrong and how shady that was (which I dont disagree with)

 

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

 

It doesnt matter which book or author it is, sometimes we will like things others do not be it a majority or minority for either side. So long as people are offering fair and honest opinions and criticism there is nothing wrong with that. 

It 100% does matter who the author is to some XD

[cheywood]

I’m fine with three parts of Abnett letting almost every word in his vocabulary loose on the page. It’s ridiculous, and it’s not the most intelligible or enjoyable style he’s written in, but it feels singularly unique in a way very, very few BL books do. I think it’s the only BL novel that can be properly described as experimental in its prose. I get why people are disappointed in its strangeness, but I myself am not.

 

On the other hand, the way GW’s handled this is pretty abysmal as far as customer service. Keeping the number of books secret, failing to make an adequate supply of LEs available, etc. Understandable that people are irked. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by cheywood

[Nagashsnee]

14 hours ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

 

Which probably should be discussed in a separate thread, when I come into this section I'm expecting oh I dunno actual discussion about what's in the book instead of what BL is doing wrong and how shady that was (which I dont disagree with)

But when the actions are limited to a 'single' book?  The issues in this case are not BL wide, they dont affect any other books but the final 3 siege of terra books and are very much tied to this book. They way it was written/edited and marketed. 

 

I agree with your point if its a decision that affects BL as a whole, but making a duplicate thread in this case i feel would be counter productive.  Bl decision to cut the author lose from restrain, Abnetts decisions on which stories and how to tell them all affect the arguments over the final book being split. Likewise the false promise of a conclusion printed in this book is pretty firmly tied to this book. 

 

When i argue that 3 books were not needed it is partly based on THIS books story feeling to me bloated and it retreading unneeded ground.  You cannot separate one from the other, its three books BECAUSE they include this things, and because its three books which was decided last min this book DOES have lies in print. Because they are making it up as they go along with THIS book their original marketing of a 8 books series is false. You cannot separate one from the other. Since they have proven they either dont know or are willing to consistently lie about the number of books we CAN speculate if 3 really is the final number or if a secret 4 'epilogue' will be revealed.