Heresy Era Librarians

[General Zodd]

A call out to all the lore-masters out there! I’m converting a librarian for my Sons of Horus, and wanted to know what heraldry is appropriate. Was the Librarius using the horned skull symbol yet? Books? Or just variations on Legion heraldry? Help please!

[LameBeard]

I am no Lore Master but …

 

The horned skull, plus books and scrolls, are heavily represented on the original Rogue Trader models - which often inspire the heresy. I feel they will make a comeback.

 

The one official (traitor) librarian model has an actual book and scrolls, but no apparent heraldry.

 

The Dark Angel Heresy novels seem to suggest very little in the way of specific heraldry for chaplain or librarian, maybe just the weapon as badge of office.  And once the edict of Nikea comes in, any heraldry would vanish.

 

So my suggestion would be: if Great Crusade/Early Heresy, keep it very subtle. Severin Loth (with his horned skulls) has been used by many hobbyists as heresy-era librarian.

 

if late Heresy, I would lean more to the theme of summoning/warding against daemons - ie using runic script - if possible in a way which suggests it is not fully understood, it is being unearthed from superstition, again, as the Horus Heresy novels tell.

 

The rulebook also has some examples of very-chaosy Word Bearer diabolists. If you want to go down that route you can make their head an actual horned skull!

[General Zodd]

Great comments, thanks Lamebeard! This is definitely mid-late Heresy, so the Edict of Nikea has been and gone, with the Sons of Horus forging their own path. Now you’ve said that, I think you’re right, the Librarius was disbanded, along with its symbols, so any re-emergent practising of witchery would be less formalised in its structures.

[Noserenda]

The answer is always what do you want to do on your model? Despite what some people would say they are always quite careful to avoid being definitive unless its absolute. They could certainly run the full gamut from fantasy wizard/shaman in power armour to still fighting dressed as a tactical marine in the period :D 

Sons of Horus (and my opinion obviously) specific i dont remember any notable Librarians from their ranks, though they probably did use battle psykers of some sort, i suspect the arch politician Horus avoided making a firm stance on the Librarius issue, his influence would surely have been notable otherwise! 

So personally i wouldnt use Librarian iconography on mine, (and i didnt, some bad pics in my blog *plug* ) id lean a bit into a shaman look but not excessively. The Psychic hood and staff are the main things that make him stand apart from other officers.

[General Zodd]

9 hours ago, Noserenda said:

The answer is always what do you want to do on your model? Despite what some people would say they are always quite careful to avoid being definitive unless its absolute. They could certainly run the full gamut from fantasy wizard/shaman in power armour to still fighting dressed as a tactical marine in the period :D 

Sons of Horus (and my opinion obviously) specific i dont remember any notable Librarians from their ranks, though they probably did use battle psykers of some sort, i suspect the arch politician Horus avoided making a firm stance on the Librarius issue, his influence would surely have been notable otherwise! 

So personally i wouldnt use Librarian iconography on mine, (and i didnt, some bad pics in my blog *plug* ) id lean a bit into a shaman look but not excessively. The Psychic hood and staff are the main things that make him stand apart from other officers.

Which blog should I be looking at? If it’s linked in your signature, I’m usually on here using my mobile, which doesn’t include them!

[Iron Handed]

I cannot remember specific details but I recall a Sons of Horus librarian making an appearance (pre edict) in the White Scars Primarch novel. Otherwise I think it will depend of specific legions, for example in Unremembered Empire I believe it describes that Guilliman reinstates the Librarius branch of the ultramarines fairly shortly after calth, so a more 'codex' uniform look amongst similar legion might be more appropriate. Finally, it might seem a little anachronistic to look at the White Scars as a template, but given that they are one the legions who were at the forefront of the Librarius project stormseer artwork could be general indicator for what main stream librarians *could* incorporate armour and heraldry wise too 

[Gamiel]

The official Esoterist Consul model lack the horned skulle and is painted in standard SoH colours, what marks him out is his psychic hood, robes, staff and bling.

 

But I would say that if you want to you could say that your force of SoH for one reason or another have marked their librarian out with  different colour/s (could be blue, or other) and at least in earlier editions of Wh40k could it be that only part/s of the armour was blue as a kin of personal heraldry. Just as you can say that they have used the horned skulle as a making for them and that's something they have done not something that applies to the Legion.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Gamiel

[lansalt]

For what I remember, the pre-Nikaea 30k librarians were usually marked by a psychic hood, an open book tactical marking in their shoulder pad, and used the same ranks as in 40k (codicier, etc), with force weapons/staffs being optional. But this doesn't cover the legions with their own psychic traditions.

SW rune priests and WS stormseers used psychic hoods, but they didn't follow the same structure or markings. The TS didn't seem to use normal psychic hoods or really care about the Librarius except as a PR project. And of course, the esoterists/diabolists in the WB and others were not always originally librarians (DG Typhus' sorcerers, DA Zahariel's men, Salamanders' Disciples of Flame)

But while it seems anachronic and against the Imperial Truth, the librarian's horned skull icon definitely existed during 30k, as can be seen in the Tylos Rubio FW model or the WE librarians in Angron: Slave of Nuceria's cover.

 

I also found this helpful reddit post here with a handy list of the legions and their Librarius, with references to BL stories:

• I Dark Angels: Had a Librarius, dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea, reinstated during the Heresy (The Lion).
• III Emperor’s Children: Never had a Librarius because they considered psykers as an imperfection.
• IV Iron Warriors: Never had a Librarius, the widespread paranoia in the legion and Perturabo himself probably could not have tolerated psykers.
• V White Scars: Had a form of Librarians called Stormseers that was based on the traditions of Chogoris. Outright ignored the Edict of Nikaea.
• VI Space Wolves: Had a form of Librarians called Rune Priests that was based on the traditions of Fenris. Felt that the Edict of Nikaea did not apply to them, so never dissolved.
• VII Imperial Fists: Had a Librarius, dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea, reinstated during the Siege of Terra (The Solar War).
• VIII Night Lords: Had a Librarius, dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea (Child of Night). Night Lords Librarians were active during the Heresy (Vulkan Lives), but based on how Curze runs his legion, it’s likely that they were not formally reinstated, they just did their own thing with no one caring.
• IX Blood Angels: Had a Librarius, dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea, reinstated during the Heresy (Ruinstorm).
• X Iron Hands: Never had an official Librarius, but had a small number of battle-psykers within the ranks (Weregeld).
• XII World Eaters: Had a Librarius when they were still the War Hounds. Angron never dissolved the Librarius, but recruitment basically stopped and Librarians slowly died out due to the adverse effects of the Butcher’s Nails on them + battle attrition. The last of the Librarians finally died attempting to stop Angron’s ascension to daemonhood (Betrayer).
• XIII Ultramarines: Had a Librarius, dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea, reinstated during the Heresy (The Unremembered Empire).
• XIV Death Guard: Had a Librarius when they were the Dusk Raiders, dissolved after the coming of Mortarion due to his hatred of psykers. First Captain Typhon, himself a psyker, secretly had a sort of mini-Librarius in his company (The Buried Dagger).
• XV Thousand Sons:  Entire Legion was basically a Librarius. Ignored the Edict of Nikaea, which led to the Burning of Prospero.
• XVI Sons of Horus: Had a Librarius, but members were not battle-psykers. Instead studied the warp to help the legion better combat warp-wielding enemies (Jaghatai Khan: Warhawk of Chogoris).
• XVII Word Bearers: Had a Librarius, ostensibly dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea, but most became Chaos Sorcerers instead.
• XVIII Salamanders: Had a Librarius, dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea (Scorched Earth).
• XIX Raven Guard: Had a Librarius, dissolved after the Edict of Nikaea, reinstated during the Heresy (Ravenlord), then dissolved again before the Battle of Yarant (Weregeld).
• XX Alpha Legion: Had a Librarius, outright ignored the Edict of Nikaea.

 

 

[LameBeard]

Good shout remembering Tylos Rubio. I think if I were making a librarian I’d go with the horned skull but not any blue. Colour-coding feels more “codex astartes” and post-heresy generally (although I know in the novels some chaplains adopt black and skull masks, whilst others stick to legion colours, standard armour). 1st edition space hulk terminator librarians tended to stick with  chapter colours, so I’m not sure if the blue is a slightly later introduction to 40k, even if it came in before 2nd edition (I’m thinking of that White Dwarf Blood Angels army where the librarian is half blue I think).

[lansalt]

Honestly, I feel that the real explanation for the Tylos Rubio horned skull was a honest mistake by the FW sculptor or Neil Roberts, and the artist that later did the Angron primarch book cover just copied that model but with WE markings. Maybe we could say it was initially used by Librarians sanctioned by Malcador like Rubio (and maybe Siege era loyalists by extension), and dismiss the Angron book art. While technically being the official art, it certainly seems anachronic and out of place for pre-Heresy or Loyalist marines.

 

About the blue colour for their armour, I'm sure that it was a post-Heresy Codex thing, IIRC all the librarians that appear in the books use their legion colours. For example, this is a Luna Wolves librarian that appears in Warhawk of Chogoris during a battle against orks:

 

Quote

The Luna Wolves warrior approached. His ivory armour was scrawled in black lines, spidery like thrown ink. A blue symbol - an open book - had been daubed on his shoulder guards. His gauntlets were blackened, as if he'd held them inside a furnace for a long time.
'This is Jereth,' Rheor said. 'Librarian.'
'I didn't think—'
'He studies psychic powers. Doesn't use them. We're not bloody savages.' It was hard to tell if Rheor was smiling under his helm.

By the way, the SoH praetor with axe in the AoD box clearly has codicier markings in his cloak and arms, I suspect he originally must have been a librarian consul model, or at least it clearly can be used as one.

[LameBeard]

It is quite plausible - I think there are quite a few examples of artists and authors going for 40k-inspired imagery that is at odds with other descriptions/depictions. As before, it’s all canon, and none of it’s true.

 

Perhaps even plausible that what started as Rubio’s *personal* heraldry inspired Guilliman to chose that symbol for all librarians when he wrote his codex.

[Gothical]

I was reading one of the Siege of Terra books (probably Solar War) where the Imperial Fists librarians are in their meditations (where they have been since the Edict of Nikea, isolated and meditating to help them keep their oaths not to use their powers) and it mentions one of the librarians having (at least sections of) blue armour. No mention of any heraldry but I thought it was interesting given that the blue seems to be more a 40K thing.

[lansalt]

Yes, in The Solar War,  IF librarians are described with "yellow-and-blue ceramite" and use force weapons. In Weregeld, an RG librarian is said to have "the blue blazon of the Librarius once more breaking the black of his armour on the right shoulder". So between this and the Luna Wolves example above, it seems like 30k standard librarians before Nikaea used at least one pauldron with a combination of blue and a book icon. 

Of course, there's room between Nikaea and the Siege for deviations from this to have happened, like maybe Rubio's horned skull.

Edited February 19, 2023 by lansalt

[Noserenda]

Yeah before Guiliman wrote the codex there weren't standard markings, (At least for roles not described in the Principia Bellicosa, like Librarians effectively just fashions of which the "Librarian" was probably the most popular as it had a few Primarchs behind it, even so, Librarians of the Ksons, White Scars and Blood Angels were as different from each other as could be :D 

My rarely updated blog if anyone is  still interested :D

 

[lansalt]

Note that the stories quoted above do suggest a standard marking for 30k librarians using blue and a book icon (which makes sense, they were librarians, after all). The Librarius was a project of several primarchs led by Magnus, and it was pretty much official and strictly regulated within the structure of the Legions like any other  organization until Nikaea ended it.

The exception were the TS, WS, and SW which didn't really have librarians in a strict sense, or the many sorcerers/esoterists/diabolists/psykers that appeared during the Heresy, and which many times held another rank. Like WB chaplains being effectively also diabolists.

 

 

[Noserenda]

Im not sure its really a standard marking if so many Legions mostly ignored it, including at least two of the Librarius advocating legions? Certain motifs definitely turn up a few times, but i wouldnt call them standard.

[lansalt]

Well, we have at least 3 descriptions of 30k librarians using blue/a book icon. Since we know they had the same Lexicanium, Codicier, Epistolary, etc. ranks as the 40k version, it stands to reason they also had a common icon across the legions. The TS and WS were special cases that didn't have a Librarius as the one they supported in other legions without their own psyker traditions.

 

I've also found that in The Lion novella, the DA librarians are said to wear blue robes. So blue seems like a constant in all those descriptions.

[Gamiel]

Not certain if it counts but in Warhammer: Visions #9 do we, under the Parade Groud heading, on page 130-131, have a pic of a SoH squad by Alan Thomson, where one of the squad members is a blue painted librarian (both his pauldrons are in SoH sea-green) created from the 40k Librarian model with no visible modification what I can see.

[Noserenda]

On 2/19/2023 at 9:47 PM, lansalt said:

Well, we have at least 3 descriptions of 30k librarians using blue/a book icon. Since we know they had the same Lexicanium, Codicier, Epistolary, etc. ranks as the 40k version, it stands to reason they also had a common icon across the legions. The TS and WS were special cases that didn't have a Librarius as the one they supported in other legions without their own psyker traditions.

 

I've also found that in The Lion novella, the DA librarians are said to wear blue robes. So blue seems like a constant in all those descriptions.

Somethings existing does not mean they were standard, i mean that literally flies in the face of the background as presented. The Legions were formed initially around the Principia bellicosa, (Which really should have had a role for battle psykers given the Emperor and Malcador run the place but apparently didnt) and then each Primarch moulded their legion from there individually with influence from their brothers.

A standardised or common icon or colour scheme would require some authority to impose it as no Primarch was liked or respected by all their brothers enough to just do what they suggest, thats exactly why Guiliman felt the need to create the Codex astartes post heresy and even then it nearly caused another civil war, though i suspect more on the breaking of the Legions than the markings on the Librarius :D 

So yeah, that marking/colour/rank might well have been around, influential even given Sanguinius especially is very well regarded by most, but it was never standard and its misleading to suggest it was because outside of the (largely superseded) Principia bellicose there is no standard in this era and thats a fairly significant difference to 40k.

The problem with specific examples as anything but a specific example is that you never know how much someone has looked into a subject, did the creator/author give it any thought or did they just pop open Codex space marines or google and apply what they saw? :D :P

So yeah, these things obviously exist but are precisely no more valid/standard than anything else you might choose.

[LameBeard]

I want to defend the artists and make sure I am not criticising them. I personally, prefer the idea that Librarians in the Heresy wore their legion colours, not blue.  However, just because an artist depicts a librarian as blue, that doesn’t mean they “got it wrong”. Bruegel depicts Biblical scenes as if they were in 16th Century Netherlands. It’s not because the artist doesn’t know what 1st Century Palestine might have looked like, but because he’s chosen a particular means to best communicate the idea to his audience. The artist depicting the blue librarian might be doing the same - it become “obviously” a librarian to our eyes. It might even be deeper than that - a reflection of in-universe 40k art depicting a 30k event. Just as the novels have to be written in English, they also have to use a certain visual language about their subject. Personally I like all the little Easter eggs that form dramatic irony “oh that’s a bit of 30k that turns out differently in 40k” - but you can’t do that on every page. So I give plenty of room for the authors and artists to depict as they see fit, without that changing my own ideas of what (say) a heresy-era librarian looked like.

[lansalt]

25 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

there is no standard in this era

I strongly disagree with this, and all what we've seen since Horus Rising and Betrayal about how the legions worked doesn't support it. The 40k chapters also have a lot of variation in their markings even in the Ultramarines, but that doesn't mean there are no standards. For example, the Codex didn't create tactical, devastator, and assault  squads. It just changed how they were used. Even the markings are pretty much the same as in 30k, just with more aesthetic variants. One only has to look at the FW legion decal sheets: Even the SW used the arrow tactical markings, and if anything they became different after the Codex (no doubt as a way to show their independence).

 

In the case of Librarians (and I mean the actual Legion Librarians, not the shamans or sorcerers in other legions), we know for sure the following:

• It was a project sponsored by Magnus and his allies to make acceptable the use of warp powers within the structure of the legions. It was itself a push for standarization of sanctioned psyker legionaries.
• They had the same specific ranks (codicier, etc) as their 40k versions. Another sign of standarization.
• In the few instances Librarians are described, in 4 cases they use blue in some way despite their legions not being UM, NL, etc. In the case of the mid Great Crusade Luna Wolves, it's said they used a blue book icon.
• A book icon fits pretty well an organization called librarians (just like destroyers use a radiation warking symbol)

So while not all legions had Librarians, those which had librarians must have followed guidelines set by the Librarius project, which no doubt included also their markings.

Of course, after Nikaea and the start of the Heresy many Librarians were reinstated or used their powers again without authorization. In some cases they never changed their appearance (IF, WE) or returned to their old looks again (RG, UM), but it's easily possible that many didn't do it because their circunstances (Salamanders)

[Gamiel]

In White Dwarf 407 do we see then GW employee Duncan Rhodes' Sons of Horus army and it has a Librarian created using the now defuct 40k Librarian sculpt where he holds a staff and a open book, with the open book arm replaced with an empty arm. It's colours are SoH sea-green exept for the right pauldron and arm which are blue. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Gamiel

[b1soul]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:53 PM, Iron Handed said:

I cannot remember specific details but I recall a Sons of Horus librarian making an appearance (pre edict) in the White Scars Primarch novel.  

It was in Yesugei's story thread iirc, and Yesugei found him not very pleasant

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

If I recall correctly,  the only few official miniatures marked as "librarian" in the Horus Heresy are those. And are painted (Official paint work) with their legion colors. And, of course, we have Tylos Rubio, but the miniature shows him as Malcador's  Errant Knight. So doesn't count.

So, a valid conclusion is the Heresy era librarian didn't used any distinctive color away their legion's heraldic.

 

But, as GW takes no care, or even,less for such "annoyances", such heraldic, background, etc my point is, if any of us wants to paint an heresy librarian, can paint it as it please. Pure legion colors? Fine. A small detail in blue,? Fine half armor in blue? Fine. All blue except a shoulder pad? Fine too. All fine! Enjoy the freedom!( Or GW's neglect if you prefer)

 

Well, that's my personal opinion, of course.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by AGRAMAR
Wrong picture format

[lansalt]

6 minutes ago, AGRAMAR said:

the only few official miniatures marked as "librarian" in the Horus Heresy are those

The problem is that those are all TS (who weren't technically "librarians") or traitor esoterists/former librarians. And the terminator was clearly meant to be a WB while being painted blue.

As said in other posts above, it really depends on the specific legion, and not all marine combat psykers were librarians, even in loyalist legions.