About transport capacity in dedicated transports

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Well, one thing in Horus Heresy that makes no sense to me is about Dedicated Transports like Rhinos Deimos, Land Raiders Phobos, Termites,...and their transport capacity. Many unit entries said that, a unit with 10 or less, can take a Rhino Deimos (for example) as Dedicated Transport. But Rhinos Deimos have a Transport capacity of 12. Same as Termites o Land Raider Phobos. So, is not possible to make a Tactical Squad of 10+character, 11 +character or even 12 members (no character), and take a Rhino/whatever they can take, as Dedicated Transport? 

 

I think is something the copy-pasted wrongly from previous books in the first edition, but for now there's no official FAQ for this...

 

What do you do? RAW or a bit more flexibility/"house rules"?

Edited February 19, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[Harrowmaster]

I imagine that the extra capacity is due to the fact that you couldn't fit a character or apothecary in a transport with a full sized squad last edition. Rn I play RAW if your group wants to house rule then that's fair but I don't see RAI being any different util it is FAQ'd (if it ever is). 

[MARK0SIAN]

It doesn’t need house ruling.

 

You select the dedicated transport when you select the unit. So if you select a unit of 10 tactical marines they can take a rhino because at that point they number 10 or less. Characters like HQs or apothecaries are added to the unit after it has chosen it’s dedicated transport and those characters use the additional transport capacity. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

1 hour ago, MARK0SIAN said:

It doesn’t need house ruling.

 

You select the dedicated transport when you select the unit. So if you select a unit of 10 tactical marines they can take a rhino because at that point they number 10 or less. Characters like HQs or apothecaries are added to the unit after it has chosen it’s dedicated transport and those characters use the additional transport capacity. 

 Thanks but then the question remains the same in one thing: what about a unit of 12 Tactical? No transport?

[Brother_Angelus]

Agreeing with the above, it seems like an intentional choice to provide room for Apothecaries, Techmarines, and/or Characters.

 

It's the same with Land Raiders having 12 capacity, but only terminator squads up to 5 being able to take them. Or spartans being 26 but the largest singular units that can take them as DT being equivalent to 20 bodies, before attaching stuff.

 

I wouldn't house rule any of them.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Brother_Angelus

[Gorgoff]

6 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

 Thanks but then the question remains the same in one thing: what about a unit of 12 Tactical? No transport?

No transport, yes. 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

8 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

 Thanks but then the question remains the same in one thing: what about a unit of 12 Tactical? No transport?

That’s correct, They wouldn’t be able to take a rhino dedicated transport because when you select the unit they are more than 10. 
 

The transport capacities are designed to allow characters to join squads and still fit in the transport.

[Xenith]

12 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

But Rhinos Deimos have a Transport capacity of 12. Same as Termites o Land Raider Phobos. So, is not possible to make a Tactical Squad of 10+character, 11 +character or even 12 members (no character), and take a Rhino/whatever they can take, as Dedicated Transport? 

 

This is an incorrect reading, if I'm understanding you correctly. You purchase the transport at the same time as the unit. If the models in that unit number >10, then you canot take the rhino. Apothecaries and IC's are added afterwards,, at the pre-battle stage, so do not count towards this limit. 

 

Things have a capacity of 12 as many units have minimum sizes of 10, so if the rhino had a max capacity of 10, you could never attach a model to a unit in rhino.

 

10 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

 Thanks but then the question remains the same in one thing: what about a unit of 12 Tactical? No transport?

 

Correct. No dedicated transport. If you took a unit of 12 tacs, then added an apothecary, the unit would be too large for the transport, however the rules say they must begin the game embarked on the transport, so I presume that they would just be destroyed. 

 

I do think that it should have been allowed to squeeze the extra 2 marines in there. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

30 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

This is an incorrect reading, if I'm understanding you correctly. You purchase the transport at the same time as the unit. If the models in that unit number >10, then you canot take the rhino. Apothecaries and IC's are added afterwards,, at the pre-battle stage, so do not count towards this limit. 

 

Things have a capacity of 12 as many units have minimum sizes of 10, so if the rhino had a max capacity of 10, you could never attach a model to a unit in rhino.

 

 

Correct. No dedicated transport. If you took a unit of 12 tacs, then added an apothecary, the unit would be too large for the transport, however the rules say they must begin the game embarked on the transport, so I presume that they would just be destroyed. 

 

I do think that it should have been allowed to squeeze the extra 2 marines in there. 

 And if I want to have just 12 astartes? No apo, no techno, no independent character...just the squad. Or 11 if you think to attach one extra.

 

If not, has no sense to have a transport capacity of 12. That's the thing that makes me feel uncomfortable.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Anyway, I mailed GW, to the FAQs section, asking about this. How now, maybe they put something about this, one day...

Someday.

 

[MARK0SIAN]

34 minutes ago, AGRAMAR said:

 And if I want to have just 12 astartes? No apo, no techno, no independent character...just the squad. Or 11 if you think to attach one extra.

 

If not, has no sense to have a transport capacity of 12. That's the thing that makes me feel uncomfortable.

It does make sense to have a capacity of twelve. That way, an independent character and an apothecary can both join a 10 man unit and still fit in the transport.

 

The two extra seats, 11 & 12 in the capacity, are specifically designed for the characters, not two extra tactical marines.

 

I admit it does cause a bit of a weird feeling with tactical squads as their number can go above 10 but most units can’t and tactical squads are not the only unit that can take a rhino as a dedicated transport. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

12 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

It does make sense to have a capacity of twelve. That way, an independent character and an apothecary can both join a 10 man unit and still fit in the transport.

 

The two extra seats, 11 & 12 in the capacity, are specifically designed for the characters, not two extra tactical marines.

 

I admit it does cause a bit of a weird feeling with tactical squads as their number can go above 10 but most units can’t and tactical squads are not the only unit that can take a rhino as a dedicated transport. 

 

But an apothecary/tecnomarine can be attached in an unit with an Independent Character already on it? I thought it wasn't.

[MARK0SIAN]

17 minutes ago, AGRAMAR said:

 

But an apothecary/tecnomarine can be attached in an unit with an Independent Character already on it? I thought it wasn't.

An apothecary definitely can join a unit with an Independent character (technically the apothecary joins first before independent character). I don’t have my books with me at the moment so I’m not totally sure about a techmarine, I’d need to check.

 

EDIT - Yes, the techmarine functions in the same way. He joins the unit first then an independent character can join the unit afterwards.

Edited February 20, 2023 by MARK0SIAN

[dickyelsdon]

You are not allowed a squad of 12 tactical in a rhino because the rule is based off the lore, which has always been ten men in a rhino. Its been tweaked to allow the additional characters.  Many would also argue squads should only be taken in multiples of 10 (or 5 for elite), as thats how they were structured for most legions (ignoring casualties obviously) but depends how pedantic you want to be :) 

Edited February 20, 2023 by dickyelsdon

[Brother_Angelus]

11 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

An apothecary definitely can join a unit with an Independent character (technically the apothecary joins first before independent character).

This is true for everything except Retinue squads. The character is the unit leader during list building and Apothecarion Detachment specifically disallows them from joining units with IC in them.

[Stitch5000]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:08 PM, AGRAMAR said:

 Thanks but then the question remains the same in one thing: what about a unit of 12 Tactical? No transport?

Why is there a question? It says TEN. It is very clear. 

By the same logic you could ask questions about the Movement characteristic or the armour values, but for some reason, you don't?

22 hours ago, AGRAMAR said:

Anyway, I mailed GW, to the FAQs section, asking about this. How now, maybe they put something about this, one day...

Someday.

 

Seriously is this the sort of stuff people are filling the FAQ inbox up with?

Is it any reason you don't get a response if this is what they have to wade though?

Edited February 21, 2023 by Stitch5000

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

6 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

Why is there a question? It says TEN. It is very clear. 

By the same logic you could ask questions about the Movement characteristic or the armour values, but for some reason, you don't?

Seriously is this the sort of stuff people are filling the FAQ inbox up with?

Is it any reason you don't get a response if this is what they have to wade though?

 

Hey...relax and touch grass, please! Is unnecessary be so rude if you disagree with this question. And,I believe, is legitimate send a mail to a company asking about a rule that someone has a doubt...

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by AGRAMAR

[Xenith]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:25 PM, dickyelsdon said:

You are not allowed a squad of 12 tactical in a rhino because the rule is based off the lore, which has always been ten men in a rhino. Its been tweaked to allow the additional characters. 

 

This is important to remember - it's a game, not a simulation. Certain things have to be abstracted to make the gameplay experience more enjoyable. If the rhino/raider was only 10 men, people would complain that they cannot take a character with their units. This is the better way. 

[Brother Sutek]

People did complain and they gave us the ability to take 12. I'm happy about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WolfLogic]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:44 AM, Xenith said:

 

This is important to remember - it's a game, not a simulation. Certain things have to be abstracted to make the gameplay experience more enjoyable. If the rhino/raider was only 10 men, people would complain that they cannot take a character with their units. This is the better way. 

I think 12 makes more sense even from a lore perspective as it begs the question of how Astartes Officers are supposed to ride into battle otherwise. Having extra seats beyond the basic 10-man Tac Squad makes that question null & void and also would help with logistics. What's easier 2 slightly smaller rhinos or one slightly bigger one? The latter of course. 

I know that isn't the official lore, but it should be IMO

[Spagunk]

I mean, the cab section is supposed to have the driver/gunner then the cupola so feasibly you can fit an extra body up there?

As is, pre-embiggening of marines, If you pack them in SUPER tight (back to front, sitting on the chairs while holding your power pack etc) it was not impossible to fit all 10-12 in a rhino. The bigger mk6's, however, have to hunch down so this hypothetical no longer makes sense in the current scale for the deimos rhino. Even modern human transports have people packed in super tight and look almost impossible to fit what they say you can fit inside the vehicle.

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Spagunk

[Valkyrion]

In 2nd ed the driver could get out, so Rhinos could carry 10+(1).

 

They could carry terminators then too. 

[Brother Sutek]

You could also kill the driver with a  Harlequins kiss.  Good times.