Fighting Deathwing

[templargdt]

How are you combating Deathwing?  The last event I went to I got almost tabled by 40 Terminators of various types with character support.  Next time I think it will probably be 50 with the points changes.  How are you guys fighting these units?  Thanks!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You should have more combat units and throw  down more attacks… it’s all about weight of attacks.

[Karhedron]

Perma-Transhuman is very powerful. BBF is right, weight of attacks is the way to go but optimising for the right kind of attacks also helps. What army do you play?

 

 

Assuming Imperium, anything that does a flat 3 Damage is good as a single failed save removes a whole model. Thunder Hammers and the like are good. Otherwise, mass at much S4 with AP-1/2 as you can and drown them weight of attacks. Lightning Claws are good as they have lotys of attacks, decent AP and THP provides no protection against rerolls to wound.

 

The other thing is to play smart and concentrate on your Objectives. If a unit is scoring your opponent VPs or pose an immeadiate threat to you, throw everything you can at it until it dies. Ignore more distant and lower scoring targets.

 

Also, consider investing in a couple of squads of Sniper Eliminators to target supporting characters such as Apothecaries. Killing his termies is hard enough without a medic bringing some of them back.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Emperor’s Champion is a real heavy hitter versus Deathwing since he’s got a flat damage 3 attack, same with Helbrecht, asscents and assault Terminators. Eradicators with heavy melta rifles nuke them as well. The Redemptor is also a solid choice as well.

[templargdt]

It's tough to see weight of attacks helping here.  Your standard Death Wing terminator is T4, W3, 1+/4++ and only can be wounded on a 4+.  

48 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Perma-Transhuman is very powerful. BBF is right, weight of attacks is the way to go but optimising for the right kind of attacks also helps. What army do you play?

 

 

Assuming Imperium, anything that does a flat 3 Damage is good as a single failed save removes a whole model. Thunder Hammers and the like are good. Otherwise, mass at much S4 with AP-1/2 as you can and drown them weight of attacks. Lightning Claws are good as they have lotys of attacks, decent AP and THP provides no protection against rerolls to wound.

 

The other thing is to play smart and concentrate on your Objectives. If a unit is scoring your opponent VPs or pose an immeadiate threat to you, throw everything you can at it until it dies. Ignore more distant and lower scoring targets.

 

Also, consider investing in a couple of squads of Sniper Eliminators to target supporting characters such as Apothecaries. Killing his termies is hard enough without a medic bringing some of them back.

 

I play Templars. 

 

I was mathing this out in my head while stuck in traffic, and every option looks like garbage, and I cannot figure out a game plan for a rematch.    

Lightning Claw: 2/3 hit, 3/4 wound, 1/3 fail armor save (-2 AP vs. 1+ save, assuming storm shield) = 6 Lightning claw attacks for 1 wound.  Meaning 18 attacks to kill one terminator.  On the charge a group of 10 Vanguard with Dual claws pumps out 50 attacks.  So, on average you will kill almost 3.  The remaining terminators will blow your doors off. 

 

Thunderhammers and Macroplasma are worse, because you have fewer attacks so the permanent transhuman screws you harder.  Sure he will fail a save eventually, but consider:
Macro Plasma: 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail invul for a kill.  1/6 MPI shots will kill a single terminator.  The Redemptor averages 3.5 shots a round.  So if you have TWO redemptors, you will, on average, kill one whole terminator a battle round.

 

Chainsword: 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 fail a save.  1/18 swings gets a wound.  54 kills a single terminator.  Your 10 man crusader squad on the charge with close combat weapons puts out 36 plus the power sword.  You might get one.  The remaining terminators kill you dead.  

Oh yes, and the Deathwing terminators are ObSec, because of course they are. 

Yes you can up your numbers a bit with a chaplain giving you rerolls to hit, and that's increasing your hits from 2/3 to 9/10.  That's great but not going to save you.  On the claws example, you go to 9/10, 3/4, 1/3, which is 27/120, or 22%.  So roughly every 5th claw attack will generate a wound.  Your 10 Vanguards kill 5 terminators.  The remaining 5 still smoke you.

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The last time I played against DW I won, it was a close game. Had a terminator Chappie with Tbones used the strat to force enemy models in engagement range must target him, helped a lot. I forgot to mention SoJ, which is another flat damage 3 melee weapon.

[9x19 Parabellum]

3 hours ago, templargdt said:

How are you combating Deathwing?  The last event I went to I got almost tabled by 40 Terminators of various types with character support.  Next time I think it will probably be 50 with the points changes.  How are you guys fighting these units?  Thanks!

 

Don't. Arks of Omen is a :cuss:show of balance.  You could conceivably do well if you plan your entire force against DW Terminators, but that will leave you open to other stuff (ie, vehicle lists, etc.)

 

So....as many ap-2/-3 str 4 attacks with max rerolls to hit and wound.  A judiciar or two might come in handy, also.  Personally, I don't see it working out, but good luck.

[Blade of Sigismund]

Hellblasters with assault plasma and chaplain support held in reserve.

 

30 shots - 25 hits - 12 ish wounds at ap-4. Expect 8 to go through and every 2 kill terminator. This is before Marshall rerolls.

 

Hold them in reserve until opponent has committed their reserves.

 

Gladiator valiant also does 10 str8+ dmg d6 shots for 170 pts.

[Maritn]

Maybe a 20 man Primaris Crusaders Squad with 4 fists buffed with MW on 6 to wound (should kill two), Litany of Hate and a Champion of the feast with Sword of Judgement? Especially this champion has never failed to amaze me, he is a beast. In the few games I had this edition, he's been always my MVP.

I usually support it with a Judiciar.

[templargdt]

12 hours ago, Blade of Sigismund said:

Hellblasters with assault plasma and chaplain support held in reserve.

 

30 shots - 25 hits - 12 ish wounds at ap-4. Expect 8 to go through and every 2 kill terminator. This is before Marshall rerolls.

 

Hold them in reserve until opponent has committed their reserves.

 

Gladiator valiant also does 10 str8+ dmg d6 shots for 170 pts.

The hellblasters seem not bad.  Pair with Chaplain with +1 to W in shooting litany maybe.  Thanks.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

+1 to wound won’t help versus Deathwing.

[Tokugawa]

Permanent transhuman and 4++ will soften every shot you throw against them into "S4 AP-2".

 

How about just fire S4 AP-2 weapons against them? IIRC one gladiator could deliver max to 40 such shots.

[Emperor Ming]

One of many rules, that needs to go away or get toned down in 10th

[WrathOfTheLion]

From the DA perspective, you're going to want volume of fire, which has been the way to fight them throughout the edition. Bonuses to wound will be worthless, and trading hits using assault terminators won't work out en masse, as they'll be more durable. You might still do that, but I wouldn't bank on countering it with a similar terminator block.

 

With Arks of Omen, you'll see Deathwing in two list archetypes - one is pure Deathwing, where they will be obsec and they're going for large block of terminators. The second is a combined arms (Ravenwing, Greenwing and Deathwing), with Ravenwing there for a very strong mobile firebase and the Deathwing Terminators, without obsec, being an anvil unit. The combined arms one I think is the scarier of the two at this moment in time.

 

Mortal wounds if you can get them are also a pretty good counter, although I don't know how much access to that Templars get, given they get no psychic. Autowounding stuff is similarly good to bypass Inner Circle, but GW wasn't handing that poor mechanic out like candy when Codex: Space Marines was written.

 

There's a reason they're near the top right now though, aggressive point reductions combined with buffs like they did for Space Marines was asking for trouble, pretty much as I expected. They did the same thing with Beasts of Chaos in Sigmar like six months ago and it had the same result, so I was expecting to see that here as well.

Edited February 23, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Tokugawa]

9 hours ago, templargdt said:

The hellblasters seem not bad.  Pair with Chaplain with +1 to W in shooting litany maybe.  Thanks.

Hellblaster is a 30pts model which shoot max to 3 dmg2 shots(against transhuman, strength doesn't matter).

 

Old born devastator could shoot 4 dmg2 grav shots, at 23pts. Even it always move and fire, suffering -1 to hit, it still have significantly higher efficiency.

[Blade of Sigismund]

3 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Hellblaster is a 30pts model which shoot max to 3 dmg2 shots(against transhuman, strength doesn't matter).

 

Old born devastator could shoot 4 dmg2 grav shots, at 23pts. Even it always move and fire, suffering -1 to hit, it still have significantly higher efficiency.

 

I like the grav profile as well, but it runs in to an issue:  -1 to hit while moving (which you will almost always be).

 

Terminators will have the opportunity for widespread teleportation and need to use it to maximize the effectiveness of limited numbers. To avoid alpha strike in this scenario, you need to not present a target, then move in to position. Heavy weapons will require moving, which takes them from 66% accuracy to 50% without chaplain support. Even assuming chaplain support:

 

4x4 shots * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 (save modifier) = approximately 4 wounds getting through, or 2 dead terminators.

 

At 115 points for the squad and 70 pts for the chaplain, you're paying 1/2 the points but getting half the effect. Without the chaplain you average killing 1. Further, the chaplain can only buff one squad, so 10 devastators averages killing 3 vs hellblasters averaging 4.

 

Several of these conditions can be tailored around, but I prefer to have a squad that can regularly show up and destroy a squad vs one that relies on multiple for chip damage. The ability to move them, or using strats advance them, without penalty gives me more options.

[Blade of Sigismund]

3 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

From the DA perspective, you're going to want volume of fire, which has been the way to fight them throughout the edition. Bonuses to wound will be worthless, and trading hits using assault terminators won't work out en masse, as they'll be more durable. You might still do that, but I wouldn't bank on countering it with a similar terminator block.

 

With Arks of Omen, you'll see Deathwing in two list archetypes - one is pure Deathwing, where they will be obsec and they're going for large block of terminators. The second is a combined arms (Ravenwing, Greenwing and Deathwing), with Ravenwing there for a very strong mobile firebase and the Deathwing Terminators, without obsec, being an anvil unit. The combined arms one I think is the scarier of the two at this moment in time.

 

Mortal wounds if you can get them are also a pretty good counter, although I don't know how much access to that Templars get, given they get no psychic. Autowounding stuff is similarly good to bypass Inner Circle, but GW wasn't handing that poor mechanic out like candy when Codex: Space Marines was written.

 

There's a reason they're near the top right now though, aggressive point reductions combined with buffs like they did for Space Marines was asking for trouble, pretty much as I expected. They did the same thing with Beasts of Chaos in Sigmar like six months ago and it had the same result, so I was expecting to see that here as well.

 

I agree that mixed wing is more dangerous. Pure deathwing are vulnerable to being screened out and low model count makes it harder to control the board.

 

BT get mechanics to both auto-wound and convert damage to mortal wounds. However, they both only apply in CC, which is probably not where you want to be against Deathwing.

[Blade of Sigismund]

3 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Permanent transhuman and 4++ will soften every shot you throw against them into "S4 AP-2".

 

How about just fire S4 AP-2 weapons against them? IIRC one gladiator could deliver max to 40 such shots.

 

I like this thought but:

 

40 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6  = 2 wounds per salvo. Not great as its dmg 1 and its weapons are split between rapid fire and heavy, so roughly half will always be AP-1.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The poster said how to defeat Deathwing, not Ravenwing. My advice is still to apply as much flat 3 damage or more attacks as possible. They will have a low model count so every terminator lost adds up quickly, plus they are slow which you can use as an advantage.

[Kastor Krieg]

Tell them Luther sends his regards and watch them mill in confusion.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The stratagem Genome Might will be good since you can bypass toughness… could be really good on a big brick of terminators.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Do you mean Gene-Wrought Might? That is usable only on Primaris units, so not on the brick of termies.

 

But that's the sort of mechanic I would be looking for, so if there's a unit that can use it with either damage 3 attacks or high volume damage 1, that could be a way to go situationally.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah that one… forgot it only applies to Primaris. It would be great for a 20 man blob of PCS with four powerfists.