Dawn of Fire: The Iron Kingdom

[Orange Knight]

I've just finished the book - it was really good.

 

I actually cared quite a bit about how it would end. It goes without saying that in 40k things are never as simple as they might first appear.

 

Honestly this is the best novel in the series since "The Gate of Bones" and I'm now looking forward to the next one.

[Moonreaper666]

On 3/4/2023 at 12:04 PM, Orange Knight said:

I've just finished the book - it was really good.

 

I actually cared quite a bit about how it would end. It goes without saying that in 40k things are never as simple as they might first appear.

 

Honestly this is the best novel in the series since "The Gate of Bones" and I'm now looking forward to the next one.

 

I agree as long as the next novel actually continues the storyline in Gate of Bones and Iron Kingdom

 

Maybe Kyme should be doing non-Salamander stuff for the next few years

[Orange Knight]

Kyme really impressed me with the novel "Knights of Macragge"

 

Honestly, it was better and more interesting than it had any right to be, and it's even cantered around Lord Meme himself: Cato Sicarius lol

[Moonreaper666]

Strange that...

 

Spoiler

This novel is a Chaos victory like Gate of Bones

 

-A dead Custode is a big deal since they cost much more than Knights

 

-Red Corsairs get a Battleship and several Traitor Knights. They also harvested the geneseed of a few Marines

 

-Hundreds of dead Loyalist Marines and Sisters of Battle

 

[Nagashsnee]

So i finished it yesterday, it was better then i expected but my opinion of the Author is pretty low so that is a very low bar to climb. Overall it was a ok book with some major flaws 5/10 buy if fan of the series. 

 

Spoiler

The plot only works if every key character acts in the most stupid/counter productive way possible to their own interests at every key plot point. If for even one key moment someone acts like their brain is fully operational most of the issues in the novel kinda disappear.  For how important the planet and its resources are to the crusade the crusade sure seems hell bent to ruin its chances of getting it. Even if they do decide to take it over stirring up that much trouble that fast while your assets are so out of position does not tell me they are in a hurry or prideful or anything else but incompetent's. You want to cow the locals into doing what you want? Wait till the entire fleet is in orbit first.  The indomitus fleet command is suppose to be the best of the best and i just fail to see that here. 

 

Likewise the Queen, oh my what  a mess of a character, i nearly got whiplash at her contestant TOTAL position changes. Again we are told again and again how competent she and how she got the planet thru the dark times post rift. But nothing she DOES in the book shows that.  Even when she had total surprise and  total preparation every aspect of her plan is botched. 

 

Everything is the book has been done better recently elsewhere.

White scar...sorry Storm Warden marine and admin staff ( Chris we miss you write more books please). 

Knight world with a hidden old religion chaos cult working to pry it from the Imperium ( Assasinorum kingmaker says hello, as well every chief evil advisor meme in history).

The red wedding was fun to read about again. 

 

Like I get that nothing is new under the sun and the popular story tropes are popular for a reason but this entire book read like someone took popular parts of the last 10 books they read and put all together. The result is perfectly serviceable but also just stale.  

 

 

Positive side, YAY for lesser know chapters, yay for actually carrying on a plot from a previous DOF books, yay for focusing on aspects of the crusade we have not seen before and YAY for showing a crusade force that is not just Marines and maybe a single IG cameo. 

 

Lastly my ongoing peeve at BL forgetting how space ship combat works in their own universe keeps on going but as the year after BFG faded from production thats more of a me issue then the book. 

 

 

[Roomsky]

@Nagashnee,

 

I was originally right there with you on Orlah's actions, at the start of the book, but by about the middle I thought they were fairly believable.

 

As I read it, her perspective is basically "if we're so important to the Imperium/if the Imperium is so powerful, we wouldn't have had to fend for ourselves for so long." I think it's then believable she'd see putting up a fight as an effective response. The Imperium shows up, says "yeah you're 100% essential to the whole Crusade. Give us resources at the expense of your common folk, btw here's your daughter's corpse as a bargaining chip and some obvious assassins to stand next to you if you show any hint of refusal." I think her response is somewhat justified considering how insulting the pretense of diplomacy was all things considered. If anything, I thought Messinius' threat of just nuking the place was the bigger logical backflip.

[Nagashsnee]

13 hours ago, Roomsky said:

@Nagashnee,

 

I was originally right there with you on Orlah's actions, at the start of the book, but by about the middle I thought they were fairly believable.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

As I read it, her perspective is basically "if we're so important to the Imperium/if the Imperium is so powerful, we wouldn't have had to fend for ourselves for so long." I think it's then believable she'd see putting up a fight as an effective response. The Imperium shows up, says "yeah you're 100% essential to the whole Crusade. Give us resources at the expense of your common folk, btw here's your daughter's corpse as a bargaining chip and some obvious assassins to stand next to you if you show any hint of refusal." I think her response is somewhat justified considering how insulting the pretense of diplomacy was all things considered. If anything, I thought Messinius' threat of just nuking the place was the bigger logical backflip.
 

 

 

 

Spoiler

But its not just the queen, everyone has to always pick the worse response/action for the chain of events to go off. The fleet HAS to make the wrong head clerk choice, the admiral has to always pick the WRONG thing to say/do, the queen has to always under/over react, the templars have to always pick the wrong time to go on the wrong quest, the totally not evil vizier always has to be just there exactly when the queen needed it ( funny how he is never at the far away forest cave when she needs him). And like i said it doesn't ruin the book, but from the moment i realized it made me feel like i am on a attraction ride, the train is off and the path is set, nothing ever made me believe that events would ever go another way, every scene would go the worse way ti could because otherwise the plot stops, which made it rather dull rather then suspenseful. 

 

To give a example when they negotiated the ceasefire my first thought was the sister and the IG lass are going to get a message off and re set the board. And bam! They got a message of and re set the board. 

 

Only party with a faultless action chain is the red corsairs and that is again because they have to so they can be propelled into the next/other book rather then anything to do with this one.  But again having the Emperors class flagship at the perfect place, at the perfect time with no escorts was... a very silly thing for the fleet to do, corsairs or not. But it needed to happen so the flagship was left totally alone in the far rear. 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Matcap86]

Yeah this one fell flat for me. Mostly because almost all the characters were pretty 1 dimensional or existed just to push forward a story beat. 

 

Spoiler

The random murder of the Marines Malevolent because they weren't being decent enough in the middle of a warzone also felt very meh. Oh right we're in the middle of combat. Lets murder half our remaining squad and then suddenly all opposition forces disappear because the story needs the captives to be freed.

 

The multiple "they died... Psych! No they didn't" also really got grating and made the stakes or investment in characters pretty much non-existent.

 

I also dislike the idea of Atomic bombs being some kind of superweapon in 40k.

 

All in all Kyme remains a more verbose version of the codex lore blurb writers. Characters exist to have pretty one dimensional events happen to showcase cool things (I.e. knights, silent sisters, space marines, etc.).  

Edited March 15, 2023 by matcap86

[System Sound]

22 minutes ago, matcap86 said:

  Hide contents

I also dislike the idea of Atomic bombs being some kind of superweapon in 40k

 

Spoiler

Atomics that Deleted two space marine battle barges... The book states that there was nothing left of them...

 

In a setting where stuff like neurtron beams and volkite exist...

 

[Matcap86]

9 minutes ago, System Sound said:

  Hide contents

Atomics that Deleted two space marine battle barges... The book states that there was nothing left of them...

 

In a setting where stuff like neurtron beams and volkite exist...

 

Spoiler

Let alone Vortex missiles.

 

[Nagashsnee]

Spoiler

The nuke was a missed chance of doing something crazy and unique. The great thing about archeotech is that you can thrown anything in and make it a once in the setting event without needing to worry about why its never used again ( it is after all a lost relic of ancient better times). Its the perfect chance for an author to flex the creative muscles and knowledge of the 40k universe and making something interesting, unique and fun (or just go boring black hole gun). But this is a Kyme book so we got big nuke goes boom. 

 

 

 

[Moonreaper666]

On 3/15/2023 at 10:53 PM, Nagashsnee said:

  Reveal hidden contents

The nuke was a missed chance of doing something crazy and unique. The great thing about archeotech is that you can thrown anything in and make it a once in the setting event without needing to worry about why its never used again ( it is after all a lost relic of ancient better times). Its the perfect chance for an author to flex the creative muscles and knowledge of the 40k universe and making something interesting, unique and fun (or just go boring black hole gun). But this is a Kyme book so we got big nuke goes boom. 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Nukes are nothing new. Perturabo used Nukes against Vulkan and his Legion during the Drop Site Massacre

 

[Orange Knight]

My impression of the Archeotech missiles is that they were of a scale and power far beyond what exists today.

 

Keep in mind that some of these Imperium ships are 8-10 miles long, and they are flying apart in space, and are both shielded. A weapon that could delete two such ships from existence is significantly powerful. A nuclear bomb like the ones we have on Earth would not accomplish such destruction.

[Matcap86]

I mean, "nukes but technically bigger" is still not very interesting writing.

[DarkChaplain]

With everything we've seen in 40k and the HH, I still think that's a strange nitpick overall, to be honest.

[Nagashsnee]

2 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

With everything we've seen in 40k and the HH, I still think that's a strange nitpick overall, to be honest.

I would not call it a nitpick, its indicative of the authors worldbuilding and general effort.  Its always easy to take something from todays world and add a prefix or just up the numbers. But it remains the easy way out. Having a AK47 or shall we say a A-K-47000 as archeotech simply because it shoots the bullets at velocities we today could not even dream of does indeed make it a powerful weapon. But its still easy to do and very lazy. 

 

I was genuinely interested when the queen gave the order to 'prepare ze weapon' and it was a let down. Nothing bad or terrible, just a let down.  Whats makes it strange is that this was a setting veteran who should have the knowledge and experience to showcase something cool (and i know thats subjective), and its the kinda blank check that most authors would kill for as it lets them really flex the old writing muscles.  It wasnt even a special nuke that had a specific kind of radiation that rendered voids useless or just killed or the crew because existing protections are meaningless. 

 

And again there is nothing wrong with big nuke goes big boom. But there is also nothing praise worthy in it being used as a major part of the finale. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Moonreaper666]

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

I would not call it a nitpick, its indicative of the authors worldbuilding and general effort.  Its always easy to take something from todays world and add a prefix or just up the numbers. But it remains the easy way out. Having a AK47 or shall we say a A-K-47000 as archeotech simply because it shoots the bullets at velocities we today could not even dream of does indeed make it a powerful weapon. But its still easy to do and very lazy. 

 

I was genuinely interested when the queen gave the order to 'prepare ze weapon' and it was a let down. Nothing bad or terrible, just a let down.  Whats makes it strange is that this was a setting veteran who should have the knowledge and experience to showcase something cool (and i know thats subjective), and its the kinda blank check that most authors would kill for as it lets them really flex the old writing muscles.  It wasnt even a special nuke that had a specific kind of radiation that rendered voids useless or just killed or the crew because existing protections are meaningless. 

 

And again there is nothing wrong with big nuke goes big boom. But there is also nothing praise worthy in it being used as a major part of the finale. 

 

If it was a special weapon instead of an Extra-Large Nuke then the Queen would have won the battle easily. Then Guilliman comes and blows up her planet

 

However, the Indominitus Crusade is a failure. Abaddon gains ground and takes Terra

 

What Kyme was showing is that Nukes aren't enough to beat the Imperium

[Sothalor]

I think this relates to something I brought up regarding the Krieg novel: the use and terminology of nuclear weapons is almost inevitably going to invoke readers' real-world baggage and mental "horror space" pertaining to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, WMDs, global thermonuclear war, etc.

 

It can be a neat shorthand for jump-starting readers' "Bad Thing" reaction, but it runs the risk of breaking immersion - you're potentially having in-work reading flow clash with real-life mental models.

 

And I'd say that particular risk factor is pretty high for 40k works; nuclear weapons in the real world have this sort of Unthinkable-ness Threshold of civilization-destroying, world-cataclysmic stigma. There's really been nothing quite like them to the modern, western mentality. In contrast, there are lots of even more devastating and esoteric weapons in 40k. Not just that, but the civilization destruction and world cataclysms are Business As Usual for the Imperium. They have institutional processes and casual paperwork for consigning planets to death.

 

It's like... what was that meme from the old Street Fighter movie? "The day M. Bison levelled your village and murdered everyone you knew was the most important day of your life! But for me, it was Tuesday!"

[Moonreaper666]

On 3/22/2023 at 12:27 PM, Sothalor said:

I think this relates to something I brought up regarding the Krieg novel: the use and terminology of nuclear weapons is almost inevitably going to invoke readers' real-world baggage and mental "horror space" pertaining to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, WMDs, global thermonuclear war, etc.

 

It can be a neat shorthand for jump-starting readers' "Bad Thing" reaction, but it runs the risk of breaking immersion - you're potentially having in-work reading flow clash with real-life mental models.

 

And I'd say that particular risk factor is pretty high for 40k works; nuclear weapons in the real world have this sort of Unthinkable-ness Threshold of civilization-destroying, world-cataclysmic stigma. There's really been nothing quite like them to the modern, western mentality. In contrast, there are lots of even more devastating and esoteric weapons in 40k. Not just that, but the civilization destruction and world cataclysms are Business As Usual for the Imperium. They have institutional processes and casual paperwork for consigning planets to death.

 

It's like... what was that meme from the old Street Fighter movie? "The day M. Bison levelled your village and murdered everyone you knew was the most important day of your life! But for me, it was Tuesday!"

 

The blowing up of Alderaan is seen as an unequal tragedy in Star Wars, especially in the Movie-verse

 

There are individual warbands that have killed Billions more than Alderaan in just one battle or slaughter. Imagine the carnage EACH of these warbands have done in the past TEN THOUSAND YEARS!!!

 

Typhus's Plague Fleet alone probably has killed 700 TRILLION Plague-Bombing countless worlds and space colonies!

 

Nukes aren't horrible enough to instill Grimdark. MAYBE Millions of them used at the same time

[TrevorLoLz]

8 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

The blowing up of Alderaan is seen as an unequal tragedy in Star Wars, especially in the Movie-verse

 

There are individual warbands that have killed Billions more than Alderaan in just one battle or slaughter. Imagine the carnage EACH of these warbands have done in the past TEN THOUSAND YEARS!!!

 

Typhus's Plague Fleet alone probably has killed 700 TRILLION Plague-Bombing countless worlds and space colonies!

 

Nukes aren't horrible enough to instill Grimdark. MAYBE Millions of them used at the same time

 

If it's one thing you're good at, it's either trolling or simple unfounded hyperbole.

 

In relation to @Sothalor's comment about nukes - I agree to a point.  The nuclear carnage that creates Krieg is "localised" enough for readers to think "Hiroshima turned up to 9".  We get a good idea of the "creeping terror" of nuclear fallout, unending trench warfare and utter carnage which brings back effectively social memories of the World Wars.  That said, it works in particular contexts.  When you start describing galactic wide context, one nuke doesn't mean much to a reader, but similarly, comically high numbers without sufficient intimacy don't either. That can end up desensitising the reader.

 

I think Abnett hits the balance quite well in Volume 1 of "The End and the Death"; we move between large-scale sweeping depictions and then localised atrocities.  Similarly with Aaron Dembski-Bowden in Echoes of Eternity.

[Daemonic Brother]

Listened to the audio book. I have to admit I had mixed thoughts about this novel. What I liked, The imperial commander Ardemus , Marines malevolent Renyard (refreshing different take on Astartes), the silent sister Syreniel, the mordians Dvorgin and Kesh, some of the knights (seeing how some could turn under the right conditions) and Ogin the storm reaper were interesting for me. I have to admit I didn't really like the quartermaster Ariadne and wasn't the guy from the first from the first book in the series in it too? it felt really unlike him.

[Moonreaper666]

I like that this novel shows how deadly 40k is even for elite units like Astartes and Knight. That they can die in droves in just a single battle because Warhammer IS THAT brutal

 

Lack of Daemons but Chaos is still shown as a very dangerous threat...

 

Spoiler

Especially when the Imperium is fighting itself

 

Chaos won this novel even more than Gate of Bones!

 

[Felix Antipodes]

The sooner this series is wrapped up and transitions into a sandbox setting the better.  From reading the side notes of the Crusade at the back of the books, it feels like the best stories weren’t the ones told in the front-of-book stories 

[Scribe]

54 minutes ago, Felix Antipodes said:

The sooner this series is wrapped up and transitions into a sandbox setting the better.

 

I was actually thinking the same, in regards to the "State of the Setting" video.

 

Its time to put the stupid metaplot to bed for a decade and let us just play in the 1 minute to midnight like we used to.

[Urauloth]

Dawn of Fire has no bearing on whether the setting is a sandbox or not because it isn't advancing the timeline. Everything in DoF happens before Dark Imperium. I don't see how it's getting in the way of anything you want.