Dawn of Fire: The Iron Kingdom

[Moonreaper666]

14 hours ago, Urauloth said:

Dawn of Fire has no bearing on whether the setting is a sandbox or not because it isn't advancing the timeline. Everything in DoF happens before Dark Imperium. I don't see how it's getting in the way of anything you want.

 

I feel like this is more connected to the Arks of Omen storyline than Dark Imperium

[Moonreaper666]

Is it me or that was the

 

Spoiler

Changeling?

 

or another

 

Spoiler

Shapeshifting Daemon?

 

[Orange Knight]

@Scribe

 

Dawn of Fire is recent history, not current events. It's the story of the Indomitus Crusade's beginnings.

Look at it the same way you would look at the Beast Arises (although it's a lot better than that series).

 

The Arks of Omen series takes place years after, the 10th edition trailer is set beyond even that.

 

It's just about painting a picture about how the galaxy is in turmoil, and even worlds that have been safe for thousands of years are now at risk.

[DukeLeto69]

22 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

@Scribe

 

Dawn of Fire is recent history, not current events. It's the story of the Indomitus Crusade's beginnings.

Look at it the same way you would look at the Beast Arises (although it's a lot better than that series).

 

The Arks of Omen series takes place years after, the 10th edition trailer is set beyond even that.

 

It's just about painting a picture about how the galaxy is in turmoil, and even worlds that have been safe for thousands of years are now at risk.

Just going to be a tad pedantic, forgive me frater. The Beast Arises series was set several millennia before current time whereas DoF series is set several decades before current time.

[b1soul]

Yeah, Beast Arises was set "only" 1500 years after the HH, so long enough that institutions had changed quite a bit but still in the very ancient past of M41. It was quite a unique setting.

 

As an aside, I recall there's some disagreement over whether the Maximus Thane in Beast Arises was the one at the Siege, which would be odd as 1500 years is a looong time for an Astartes not to die in combat. Maybe there wasn't as much high-intensity conflict in the few millienia after the SoT. In more recent times, I'm only aware of Commander Dante being confirmed to be in the 1500 plus age range and he's considered an extreme outlier among loyalist marines.

 

IIRC, the Beast Arises Thane is still only second captain of an IF successor chapter and wasn't afforded any special honours as a SoT veteran of plus 1500 years experience. He was already the 22nd IF Captain at the SoT, so he should've been a living legend around the time of the Beast, but people were treating him as a random captain.

 

 

[Moonreaper666]

4 hours ago, b1soul said:

Yeah, Beast Arises was set "only" 1500 years after the HH, so long enough that institutions had changed quite a bit but still in the very ancient past of M41. It was quite a unique setting.

 

As an aside, I recall there's some disagreement over whether the Maximus Thane in Beast Arises was the one at the Siege, which would be odd as 1500 years is a looong time for an Astartes not to die in combat. Maybe there wasn't as much high-intensity conflict in the few millienia after the SoT. In more recent times, I'm only aware of Commander Dante being confirmed to be in the 1500 plus age range and he's considered an extreme outlier among loyalist marines.

 

IIRC, the Beast Arises Thane is still only second captain of an IF successor chapter and wasn't afforded any special honours as a SoT veteran of plus 1500 years experience. He was already the 22nd IF Captain at the SoT, so he should've been a living legend around the time of the Beast, but people were treating him as a random captain.

 

 

 

I hope Dan pulls an Archamus on us and let Siege-Thane die, so that someone else takes his name

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

I hope Dan pulls an Archamus on us and let Siege-Thane die, so that someone else takes his name

That would be a good and logical thing to do. Hope so too.

[Noserenda]

On 4/10/2023 at 5:30 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

Is it me or that was the

 

  Hide contents

Changeling?

 

or another

 

  Hide contents

Shapeshifting Daemon?

 

Its confirmed at the end that that character is another one of Abaddon's hands and presumably a mortal of some stripe. 

Finished it last night and lords above does this book rely on stupidity, like, most of the cast is just making the stupidest choice possible at any given time and it gets infuriating. Im not sure how one ends up a Queen or Admiral without the barest conception of politics or forward planning; the naval strategy and fights are terrible and a few of the ground engagements arent much better; the Black Templars leader feels like hes starring in a revenge fantasy, and not a good one; the use of atomics is bizzare. Even the Chaos characters who at least seem to know what is going on just seem to half stumble into victories.

I did like the Marines Malevolent, the Knights v marine fights (once they got their lives together), the Talons (Though odd to be under the Admirals command?) and the QM character, though i do wish she got to do her job a bit more :D 

I like the concept too, i think it could have been a great book about Imperial infighting with just a better handle on why people do things and what they hope to gain, i mean essentially the Queen started a war with no endgame, seemingly over her Daughter being brought home. What did she, a Crusade veteran herself, expect the Imperium to do after her actions? Even with the bad advisor whispering in her ear she should have had a better plan, like seeking Mechanicus protection or concessions whilst the fighting went on.

A whole battalion of armour killed by possibly one knight, (Its unclear whether the armigers were around)  including 2 super heavy tanks? Seemingly without loss? 

And the gross incompetence to lose an Emperor class battleship to an apparently small boarding party.

Gnash gnash gnash.

Anyway, it was never quite dire enough to make me quit, just enough compelling threads to stay interesting, but damn this book needed a grumpy editor to shape it up a bit, which is ironic considering the Author.

[Felix Antipodes]

Have to agree.  While I do feel Kyme is improving in recent works this one was a bit of a slide back into old habits.  There were plenty of interesting plot threads that I liked and kept pulling me into the story.  I just didn’t think they were utilised in a compelling way.

The one that had me scratching my head the most though, was the Imperial attitude towards the locals.  The main reason for being there was to transform the planet into a bastion world.  Instead, they ransacked the place like it was a way station.  Even the back up force being assembled by Messinius stated they intended to wipe out the planet if Praxis couldn’t sort it out.  Hardly good diplomacy or getting that bastion set in place. 

I get the feeling that Kyme intended to make a point about the uncaring-ness of the Imperium and just couldn’t mould it into the story as it evolved.

It also annoyed me that the overarching storyline got pretty much sidelined so that the author could write what is effectively a side story/sequel to a previous novel.  With only four or so move books in the series there is still a lot to tell about the fleet and its advance towards the Dark Imperium timeline.

[Roomsky]

I feel compelled to defend the decision making of this book's major actors (again.)

 

Besides the usual issue of anyone outside the Imperial navy being able to conceptualize how much firepower the Imperium can bring to bear, Orlah's people were abandoned for a pretty substantial length of time by the Imperium - even more noticeable for how allegedly essential her world is. If the Imperium was invincible, they wouldn't have had to fend for themselves for so long. Orlah also isn't looking for full independence, she's trying to remind the Imperium that their relationship is negotiated, not demanded. What's more, it's an impossible situation for one who actually sees themselves as responsible for their subjects: let the world be gutted by the needs of the Crusade, or fight back for the possibility of something better. Either choice will kill millions, but the latter at least has a chance of a better outcome.

 

On the flipside, the Imperial Navy is an institution that's all about the big picture - to the point where they'd easily overlook why a planet would ever consider putting up a fight against their vastly superior resources. AND they're trying to keep a massive, ongoing war moving. There's no time for silly bowing and scraping, give us your resources or we'll glass you. Be grateful for your daughter's corpse or we'll kill you. Each side is operating on entirely different scales, and it's the lack of empathy that does them in, not necessarily a deficiency in intelligence.

 

And in terms of all that being a complete diplomatic screw-up: it's the Imperium of Man. They are might makes right personified, I see it as entirely in keeping with their operations that the fleet showed up the way it did.

[Felix Antipodes]

@Roomsky totally agree.  It just didn’t come across in the story for me.

[Nagashsnee]

2 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

@Roomsky totally agree.  It just didn’t come across in the story for me.

This, we all know what Kyme wanted to show, and the story he wantred to tell. That makes sense.

 

But he did not show or tell it, we just understand what his goal was based on what we actually got.

[Moonreaper666]

53 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

This, we all know what Kyme wanted to show, and the story he wantred to tell. That makes sense.

 

But he did not show or tell it, we just understand what his goal was based on what we actually got.

 

I disagree. This situation is realistic to me

 

The Imperium reflects how broken humanity HAS ALWAYS BEEN for eternity

[theSpirea]

I'm struggling with this one. I can usually go through BL books within two or three days. I started this one almost a month ago. I might take a break and get back to it later on.

 

I'm not sure why I can't get in. But to me, it reads very dry and dull. I don't care about a single character. The synopsis is interesting, but the execution, not so much.

 

 

[Noserenda]

Yeah the broad, broooooad strokes of the story work but they are not executed in any coherent way. The Queen escalates waaaaaay too far and refuses to negotiate past a very basic point, and the Admiral is a clown shoes on head idiot which ruins the entire thing. 

If we had had ground forces at war and maybe some space skirmishes landing them and the two leaders negotiating around the ebb and flow of that fight, have the red wedding scene be a cockup (Or the chaos character escalating it) rather than her just going mad, you can even have the Chaos knights causing problems that stymie the Queens negotiations and weaken her position.

Im not sure what the atomic superweapon even adds to the story even if it was something more interesting, the Imperial fleet is clearly big enough to just ignore it anyway. But as a tactical weapon it could have been a good way to keep a ground war going.

But yeah, Imperial in fighting is fine, common even. Just dont do it so badly that one of the sides is insnae and the other incompetent. 

[Petitioner's City]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:16 AM, Orange Knight said:

@Scribe

The Arks of Omen series takes place years after, the 10th edition trailer is set beyond even that.

 

 

Can I ask what the evidence for this is? 

[Nagashsnee]

18 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

Can I ask what the evidence for this is? 

Well from what i can piece together. Dawn of fire has no one from sancturs having crossed the rift. the trailer is after devastation of baal as the events are mentioned. Arks of omens has Dante as not only regent but primaris which takes us  a few years if not more post devastation of baal ( the novel darkness in the blade is post devastation and dante is not primaris in that).  

 

No idea if the trailer is after or before arks tho.  Probably after as of current arks book a new hive fleet is no where to be seen/mentioned. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Roomsky]

Probably different strokes for different folks in this case. The Imperium is an inherently incompetent (and usually, malicious) institution to me so I enjoy stories where they're stupid evil. Nobledark, I banish thee to Age of Sigmar (which I do enjoy, btw.)

 

But I get where the other Fraters are coming from!

[Cherubael]

I see both points of view in the story which makes it work for me.  Orlah's planet has been fine without the protection of The Imperium so why let them come in and devour the resources of her planet at the expense of her people.  Also factor in that her daughter and heir to the throne died for this tyrannical organization which is now coming to kill her world.  Throw in an agent of chaos that is leading her down a path to her own destruction when she is in a very vulnerable state.  

 

And on the front of the Imperium we have a crusade that is going to devour Orlah's planets resources in order to keep things moving ahead.  Without the crusade pushing back the enemies how long would Orlah's kingdom continue to exist?

 

It honestly seems like the lack of decorum on the part of the Imperium's war machine is the main point of antagonism.  Maybe if Orlah was more involved with the Imperium she would have been prepared for it's callousness.

Spoiler

 

 

[Moonreaper666]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:14 PM, Noserenda said:

Its confirmed at the end that that character is another one of Abaddon's hands and presumably a mortal of some stripe. 

Finished it last night and lords above does this book rely on stupidity, like, most of the cast is just making the stupidest choice possible at any given time and it gets infuriating. Im not sure how one ends up a Queen or Admiral without the barest conception of politics or forward planning; the naval strategy and fights are terrible and a few of the ground engagements arent much better; the Black Templars leader feels like hes starring in a revenge fantasy, and not a good one; the use of atomics is bizzare. Even the Chaos characters who at least seem to know what is going on just seem to half stumble into victories.

I did like the Marines Malevolent, the Knights v marine fights (once they got their lives together), the Talons (Though odd to be under the Admirals command?) and the QM character, though i do wish she got to do her job a bit more :D 

I like the concept too, i think it could have been a great book about Imperial infighting with just a better handle on why people do things and what they hope to gain, i mean essentially the Queen started a war with no endgame, seemingly over her Daughter being brought home. What did she, a Crusade veteran herself, expect the Imperium to do after her actions? Even with the bad advisor whispering in her ear she should have had a better plan, like seeking Mechanicus protection or concessions whilst the fighting went on.

A whole battalion of armour killed by possibly one knight, (Its unclear whether the armigers were around)  including 2 super heavy tanks? Seemingly without loss? 

And the gross incompetence to lose an Emperor class battleship to an apparently small boarding party.

Gnash gnash gnash.

Anyway, it was never quite dire enough to make me quit, just enough compelling threads to stay interesting, but damn this book needed a grumpy editor to shape it up a bit, which is ironic considering the Author.

 

Chaos mortals with the power of the Changeling is terrifying. The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Night Lords must have a field day using these agents!

[Mjasghar]

What I think he was trying to show was that the battlegroup had been in so many fights it and especially the admiral stated thinking of themselves as hammers only. The problem is having some of planets own forces alongside them in those battles and yet they act as if it was some new culture. 
It is intriguing though that Custodian was implied to have been from before the Heresy - I thought they did age and get weaker so they retire. 
And excessive use of the trope that reasonable person equals a deathmark.

[Moonreaper666]

A little bit funny that Kyme describes a Chaos Marine as handsome

 

Reminds me of the Black Legion books. One Nurgle-worshipping BL Marine is described as thin yet having a bleach-like smell of death

[DarkChaplain]

So with the book out for a while now, and the heated parts of the discussion hopefully over, some points from me that I liked about the novel:

 

For one, this is the Imperium messing up mightily. It's a full-on display of tunnel vision, of the militant machine's lack of empathy. About military career officers chafing at having to fill boots that they weren't meant for, namely diplomacy and tact. It's soldiers wanting to get the necessary but dull task of resupplying their fleet over with, without doing the due diligence in establishing trust first.

 

This is also true for Kamidar, to an extent; Orlah is repeatedly shown as wanting to take to the field herself, wanting to exercise her martial prowess, but being forced to keep her nobles together as their queen. She's even good at it, even though she doesn't like her role. But it's not something she could lock away forever. She's willing to go the distance, if treated with respect - but more importantly, so long as her daughter's sacrifice to the Imperium is treated with it. She's furious, stricken with grief, but keeps it in check until the slights have piled up too high. For all that she tries to be "iron", her humanity is still intact, as her grief shows.

 

But looking at characters like Haster, whose utter idiocy and lack of humanity towards a grieving mother break the camel's back, or Usullis, who is quick to grandstand and so far up his own arse that he gets in the way of treating the injured, or Ardemus, whose exalted position and seeming "support" by the Primarch are shown to have led to a tendency to dismiss his subordinates' doubts or advice, while also using the body of a war hero as a bargaining chip to one-up the deceased's mother, we have prime examples of the Imperium ad-absurdum.

All of these characters that make this go to hell are bred by the very system they represent. They're closely linked, with similar views and relations to power, too, but every one of them contributes to this breakdown in their own ways. It's not an individual failing of an admiral spitting in his opposite's drink, it's a systemic failing of the Imperium's military structures taking precedence over humanitarian or diplomatic efforts. This is the Imperium, by its very nature, devouring its children.

 

In another context, all of these characters might have been great achievers, be lauded for their deeds to the Imperium. They might be rewarded for their efficiency, expedience and resolve to take the fight back to the archenemy. But here, we don't have a slavish population, scraping their knees while cowed by the Militarum and big, lofty titles such as "Groupmaster" of an imperial fleet. We have a population with its own traditions, backbone and prowess to back up their own pride.

 

Things backfire. Hard. Because those in power were unwilling to or worse, incapable of, listening to concerns and taking things one step at a time. They even got their priorities wrong - because they were supposed to establish Kamidar as a vital part of the Anaxian Line, the possibility of resupplying their fleet wasn't their intended task - but they put it forward every step of the way until escalation. They were supposed to build up a reliable ally's holdings to be able to hold the enemy in check, and instead they eroded all trust. They were not willing to invest in their relationship, to spend time on making this thing last and fulfill its purpose - they were driven by the need to be away again, completely misunderstanding the job Guilliman had given them, and acting in the worst possible way as far as he'd be concerned.

 

And then things go to hell. It was signposted way in advance, and the footsloggers were pretty much able to tell. Kesh certainly did. Vychellan, a Custodes so far removed from humanity, but also above petty matters of personal pride, realized it. But not the one in charge of negotiations - to him, it never even was a matter of negotiating in the first place, only of pressing his demands.

 

To me, the fact that Vychellan ended up as pretty much the first significant victim to the madness is an important part of the story: He represents the Emperor, the Imperium, and also by extension Guilliman. He's THE symbol of the Imperium's tyranny as the Kamidarians perceive it. But while he himself isn't a prideful character in the typical sense, he does represent the Imperials' pride, their sense of superiority, their unwavering belief in their own infallability.

 

....and then he gets torn apart by his/their "lessers", the vassals they demanded too much of, without offering anything in return, without even waiting for the conclusion of funeral rites of the queen's daughter. It's a massive blow to the Imperials' ego. No matter how superior they might believe themselves, especially martially, in this instance, it was their lack of empathy and humanity that saw them toppled. Or rather, that saw their IDOLS toppled. Unceremoniously, and it baffles them.

 

Quote

He staggered, the room shocked into silence and disbelief.
Kesh gasped. Vychellan was bleeding, his golden war plate seared through. She didn’t know they could bleed. A second beam hit him. It tore off his right arm. A third followed swiftly, coring his chest and he fell, slain.

 

It could all have been avoided, had the Imperium acted a little less like the Imperium it undoubtedly is, and shown a little more humility in the face of a proud people that have defended themselves for years after the Rift opened, alone. Had they been apologetic about their absence of support, bowed their heads in admiration for just a moment, instead of putting their macro-scale crusade before the micro-scale achievements of world vital to the macro-scale plans' success, this could have been avoided. If they had taken the time to offer humanitarian support when things started to become chaotic on Kamidar, or if efforts on the ground had been led by Ariadne, rather than Usullis, Orlah's contingencies, preparations and schemes need never have gone further than being considered.

 

Even with everything else that's happening after the feast and opening of hostilities, this book is a statement on the Imperium and its modus operandi that I feel was needed, especially with Guilliman's return and the enemy being pushed back little by little. At the end of the day, the Imperium is cold-blooded, where the individual means nothing beyond the work it can provide to keep the machine going. That on its current course, the Imperium creates its own enemies as much as it fight the ones outside its holdings. That Guilliman can have the most perfect plans imaginable, or the Emperor, but will still end up failing because of both human weaknesses and systemic injustices.

 

And the first things to fall are those very idols they cling to, no matter how inviolable they may appear at first.

Edited May 1, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Moonreaper666]

One thing I notice just recently

Spoiler

The Shapeshifter referred to Hurne (Chaos) as he not they after he has corrupted the Bandit Knights

 

Is this like a styistic choice, since he's Undivided, or something more?

 

[DarkChaplain]

By the way: Did we even talk about the implications of the ending?

 

 

Herek destroyed that Blasphemy blade the Black Templars were keeping safe, and came away with a shard/athame instead. He used it to cut through reality.

In the epilogue, he comes before Legion masters, including Kor Phaeron and Abaddon, and adds his shard to the three already present - and hears the name Erebus inside his head.
Abaddon's last line in the book is "Gather the rest".

Sounds very much like Abaddon is trying to recollect the Shards of Erebus - of which we know there are 8 total. One was given to Kor Phaeron, so we can be sure one of the three gathered before was his. But this puts us at 4/8 together.

...and the Shards of Erebus were "forged" from the Anathame. Seems to me that Abaddon is trying to recreate it.

A bunch of times throughout the book, we had stuff about destiny and providence being mentioned - providence mostly by the "faith"-faction, destiny by the cults.
Funnily enough, the twist about Ekria/Augury is foreshadowed by her repeating the same line as the priest of Hurne ("destiny awaits for those who have the will to seize it"). Erebus considers himself the Hand of Destiny, and when he dished out the Shards, he gave "Destiny" as the reason, too.
Another instance of Destiny in the novel is when the "Nine Cults of Destiny" are mentioned as having been purged by Kamidar during the years without a wifi signal.

So there's definitely more going on here with Abaddon than having his "Hand" - or one of them? - going after Bucharis's stuff. And while the visions we've seen pop up the last few books of a throned figure raising a burning sword and a cup have been implied to be the Emperor - or believed as such in Throne of Light - this stuff is always treated with a bit of doubt, or the belief that it's a warning, not a glorious future of the Emperor's rebirth.

So I theorize that the figure is, in fact, Abaddon. The burning sword is the Anathame, the weapon that brought Horus low and provoked his fall to Chaos, and the "cup" is an artifact related to Bucharis. Abaddon is obviously building towards something, and it'd fit the bill if the visions broadcast by presumably the Emperor were an attempt to forestall its success.
 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by DarkChaplain