Dawn of Fire is a Bad Series

[Kelborn]

*cough*

Leagues of Votann story

*cough*

 

Seriously though, it is difficult to have two "companies" (stretching that 'cause in the end, they're one and the same) working perfectly together. 

Perhaps that's why they're looking out for new authors to proof themselves and see if said fresh blood can expand the pool of willing and competent writers in order to improve on this obvious miscommunication  and delayed coverage.

 

Or they just don't give a crap about BL anymore and let them do whatever they like.  

 

In a perfect world, we'd have supporting material for every new edition launch like we had some generations ago. Stories to accomplish the release of new armies. Stuff to hype the community up enough for them to invest more money into GWs products.

 

It's funny and tragic 'cause they manage to do that for AoS but seem to be unable to do the same for 40k which honestly is THEIR frikkin' flagship.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Kelborn

[RedFurioso]

8 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

In a perfect world BL would have a book (or a half dozen e shorts) set within say, Arcs of Omen

Angron novel: Am i joke to you?

[wecanhaveallthree]

3 hours ago, Kelborn said:

*cough*

Leagues of Votann story

*cough*

 

I haven't seen a good place to talk about this as yet, but goddamn I want a Leagues story and I'm shocked there doesn't appear to be one on the horizon AFAIK.

 

Before their release, even a bit after, I was down on the little guys. I scoffed at them and their general theming. Don't play the tabletop, so a faction without meat in their codex wasn't of much interest. I can't even remember why I wanted to write anything about them to begin with, but the more I looked into them, really looked, the more fascinating they became and the potential in the faction for Good Stories seemed to grow immeasurably. There are so many complexities in a society that is much more the 'loose coalition' than the Tau's Greater Good, where the Leagues are more squabbling brothers than a unified commonwealth. The nature of the Kin themselves, being 'purpose built' for particular tasks, is really interesting. Uthar the Destined is a solid example: guy doesn't even know what he's supposed to do, what he's meant to be, only that he's built to do great things and fulfil some obscure role. THAT'S REALLY COOL, YO. The sheer narrative drive of 'built to be a paragon but unsure if they're doing the right thing or living up to their gods/dads/etc' is a classic, proven page-turner. That's just one dude! In one League! With all this room to explore the others. Kronus' sudden aggression, whatever the URSR are trying to hide, etc. 

 

I started off with at least some small animus towards the Leagues, and I ended up having to physically pull myself up at 40,000 words or so and say ALRIGHT THAT'S ENOUGH while simultaneously brain-buzzing with all the directions I could go further. The Votann just sucked me in, completely, with only a surface-level entirely (initially) unmotivated interest. I have every reason to think that their first book will conversion beamer people's socks off about the faction.

 

So - where is it?!

[Moonreaper666]

1 hour ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

I haven't seen a good place to talk about this as yet, but goddamn I want a Leagues story and I'm shocked there doesn't appear to be one on the horizon AFAIK.

 

Before their release, even a bit after, I was down on the little guys. I scoffed at them and their general theming. Don't play the tabletop, so a faction without meat in their codex wasn't of much interest. I can't even remember why I wanted to write anything about them to begin with, but the more I looked into them, really looked, the more fascinating they became and the potential in the faction for Good Stories seemed to grow immeasurably. There are so many complexities in a society that is much more the 'loose coalition' than the Tau's Greater Good, where the Leagues are more squabbling brothers than a unified commonwealth. The nature of the Kin themselves, being 'purpose built' for particular tasks, is really interesting. Uthar the Destined is a solid example: guy doesn't even know what he's supposed to do, what he's meant to be, only that he's built to do great things and fulfil some obscure role. THAT'S REALLY COOL, YO. The sheer narrative drive of 'built to be a paragon but unsure if they're doing the right thing or living up to their gods/dads/etc' is a classic, proven page-turner. That's just one dude! In one League! With all this room to explore the others. Kronus' sudden aggression, whatever the URSR are trying to hide, etc. 

 

I started off with at least some small animus towards the Leagues, and I ended up having to physically pull myself up at 40,000 words or so and say ALRIGHT THAT'S ENOUGH while simultaneously brain-buzzing with all the directions I could go further. The Votann just sucked me in, completely, with only a surface-level entirely (initially) unmotivated interest. I have every reason to think that their first book will conversion beamer people's socks off about the faction.

 

So - where is it?!

 

I would be interested in a LoV DoF book IF there is Chaos corruption involve. The Great Rift really hurt them

 

They are after all human in their core. Still have the same selfishness, greed and pride that have caused countless Quintillions of humans to unwillingly or willingly worship Chaos

[Ubiquitous1984]

1 hour ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

I haven't seen a good place to talk about this as yet, but goddamn I want a Leagues story and I'm shocked there doesn't appear to be one on the horizon AFAIK.

 

Before their release, even a bit after, I was down on the little guys. I scoffed at them and their general theming. Don't play the tabletop, so a faction without meat in their codex wasn't of much interest. I can't even remember why I wanted to write anything about them to begin with, but the more I looked into them, really looked, the more fascinating they became and the potential in the faction for Good Stories seemed to grow immeasurably. There are so many complexities in a society that is much more the 'loose coalition' than the Tau's Greater Good, where the Leagues are more squabbling brothers than a unified commonwealth. The nature of the Kin themselves, being 'purpose built' for particular tasks, is really interesting. Uthar the Destined is a solid example: guy doesn't even know what he's supposed to do, what he's meant to be, only that he's built to do great things and fulfil some obscure role. THAT'S REALLY COOL, YO. The sheer narrative drive of 'built to be a paragon but unsure if they're doing the right thing or living up to their gods/dads/etc' is a classic, proven page-turner. That's just one dude! In one League! With all this room to explore the others. Kronus' sudden aggression, whatever the URSR are trying to hide, etc. 

 

I started off with at least some small animus towards the Leagues, and I ended up having to physically pull myself up at 40,000 words or so and say ALRIGHT THAT'S ENOUGH while simultaneously brain-buzzing with all the directions I could go further. The Votann just sucked me in, completely, with only a surface-level entirely (initially) unmotivated interest. I have every reason to think that their first book will conversion beamer people's socks off about the faction.

 

So - where is it?!

I think it's nailed on that we'll see a Votann book in 2023.  I can see a BL veteran like Gav being lined up to write it.  Who knows they may even show up in a future DoF novel - I asked Guy Haley on twitter last summer whether we could see Votann in the series and he didn't say no.

[Kelborn]

5 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

I haven't seen a good place to talk about this as yet, but goddamn I want a Leagues story and I'm shocked there doesn't appear to be one on the horizon AFAIK.

 

Before their release, even a bit after, I was down on the little guys. I scoffed at them and their general theming. Don't play the tabletop, so a faction without meat in their codex wasn't of much interest. I can't even remember why I wanted to write anything about them to begin with, but the more I looked into them, really looked, the more fascinating they became and the potential in the faction for Good Stories seemed to grow immeasurably. There are so many complexities in a society that is much more the 'loose coalition' than the Tau's Greater Good, where the Leagues are more squabbling brothers than a unified commonwealth. The nature of the Kin themselves, being 'purpose built' for particular tasks, is really interesting. Uthar the Destined is a solid example: guy doesn't even know what he's supposed to do, what he's meant to be, only that he's built to do great things and fulfil some obscure role. THAT'S REALLY COOL, YO. The sheer narrative drive of 'built to be a paragon but unsure if they're doing the right thing or living up to their gods/dads/etc' is a classic, proven page-turner. That's just one dude! In one League! With all this room to explore the others. Kronus' sudden aggression, whatever the URSR are trying to hide, etc. 

 

I started off with at least some small animus towards the Leagues, and I ended up having to physically pull myself up at 40,000 words or so and say ALRIGHT THAT'S ENOUGH while simultaneously brain-buzzing with all the directions I could go further. The Votann just sucked me in, completely, with only a surface-level entirely (initially) unmotivated interest. I have every reason to think that their first book will conversion beamer people's socks off about the faction.

 

So - where is it?!

 

Can't add anything more than: AMEN!

 

Think a standalone would suit them more. Sure, they'd fit into the DoF series in one way or another (yo GW, I got some story threads for ya, if you're interested: shot me a pm, eh?).

 

Seriously though, they being much potential with them. From tensions with the AdMech and adding a new angle against basically every other 40k faction.

 

Their release somehow felt like the Lumineth one. Thus, I'm expecting a "finished" codex pretty early in 10th edition. Please GW, you already did quite well with their lore and codex (fluffwise!)! Just go the extra step. Please this niche of customers further!

[Scribe]

5 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

I haven't seen a good place to talk about this as yet, but goddamn I want a Leagues story and I'm shocked there doesn't appear to be one on the horizon AFAIK.

 

Before their release, even a bit after, I was down on the little guys. I scoffed at them and their general theming. Don't play the tabletop, so a faction without meat in their codex wasn't of much interest. I can't even remember why I wanted to write anything about them to begin with, but the more I looked into them, really looked, the more fascinating they became and the potential in the faction for Good Stories seemed to grow immeasurably. There are so many complexities in a society that is much more the 'loose coalition' than the Tau's Greater Good, where the Leagues are more squabbling brothers than a unified commonwealth. The nature of the Kin themselves, being 'purpose built' for particular tasks, is really interesting. Uthar the Destined is a solid example: guy doesn't even know what he's supposed to do, what he's meant to be, only that he's built to do great things and fulfil some obscure role. THAT'S REALLY COOL, YO. The sheer narrative drive of 'built to be a paragon but unsure if they're doing the right thing or living up to their gods/dads/etc' is a classic, proven page-turner. That's just one dude! In one League! With all this room to explore the others. Kronus' sudden aggression, whatever the URSR are trying to hide, etc. 

 

I started off with at least some small animus towards the Leagues, and I ended up having to physically pull myself up at 40,000 words or so and say ALRIGHT THAT'S ENOUGH while simultaneously brain-buzzing with all the directions I could go further. The Votann just sucked me in, completely, with only a surface-level entirely (initially) unmotivated interest. I have every reason to think that their first book will conversion beamer people's socks off about the faction.

 

So - where is it?!

 

The potential is really really good, for sure. Even just the minor snippets from the codex sparked interesting lines of thought.

[phandaal]

3 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

I would be interested in a LoV DoF book IF there is Chaos corruption involve. The Great Rift really hurt them

 

They are after all human in their core. Still have the same selfishness, greed and pride that have caused countless Quintillions of humans to unwillingly or willingly worship Chaos

 

Kin are engineered to resist the effects of Chaos, both spiritually and physically. They have no uncontrolled psychic mutation, psykers have trouble affecting them with their abilities, and it is rare for a Kin to fall to any kind of mutation, demonic possession, or temptation. This is spelled out in the LoV codex.

 

Also, the Rift itself did not really hurt the Leagues. The Leagues consider it no different than a natural disaster, and only even bother naming the largest component storms in the Rift. The maps of their territory show that the vast majority is free from any sort of warp storm activity.

[caladancid]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Kin are engineered to resist the effects of Chaos, both spiritually and physically. They have no uncontrolled psychic mutation, psykers have trouble affecting them with their abilities, and it is rare for a Kin to fall to any kind of mutation, demonic possession, or temptation. This is spelled out in the LoV codex.

 

Also, the Rift itself did not really hurt the Leagues. The Leagues consider it no different than a natural disaster, and only even bother naming the largest component storms in the Rift. The maps of their territory show that the vast majority is free from any sort of warp storm activity.

 

Ironically that post brought the topic back on the rails sort of, if only to highlight a recurring problem lately in this forum which is people not reading the subject matter they are writing about before writing an opinion about it. 

[Felix Antipodes]

15 hours ago, RedFurioso said:

Angron novel: Am i joke to you?

I’ve read both and there is only a very tenuous link between them.  I had to go back and reread the Ark of Omen book to even figure out where it fit chronologically in the context of The Red Angel, which is my point.  They should have fitted hand in glove, but I doubt either author consulted the others work.

Don’t get me wrong I actually enjoyed both books, but they didn’t mesh as a continuation of one story.  Also, one swallow doesn’t make a summer 

[Blood Angel Scout]

I'm beginning to wonder if it's only 9 books, will we'll see them crossing the Nachamund Gauntlet in this series or if it will finish just before?

Not sure there's enough left to cover the different threads that have been running unless only 9 for Dawn of Fire, then maybe Days of Fire is going to be the next series after. 

[Felix Antipodes]

It is really bugging me at the moment as I’m sure it was announced as 13 before being quickly cut back to 9.  I’ve gone back through all the WarCom entries, forums and even podcast interviews from the period but cannot locate the ear worm I keep hearing in my head 

 

You’re right though, I can’t see it being sorted in just nine books at this stage.

[Nagashsnee]

People did the siege teach you nothing? Its a 9 part series with book 9 being comprised of between 1 and 100 parts each its own book. 

[DarkChaplain]

2 hours ago, Blood Angel Scout said:

I'm beginning to wonder if it's only 9 books, will we'll see them crossing the Nachamund Gauntlet in this series or if it will finish just before?

Not sure there's enough left to cover the different threads that have been running unless only 9 for Dawn of Fire, then maybe Days of Fire is going to be the next series after. 

 

Guilliman will not go into Nihilus in Dawn of Fire. He'll not make that trip til after Dark Imperium is settled.

We are being set up with Fabian Guelphraine going to Vigilus to meet up with Calgar for a bit before crossing over with a Rogue Trader to see what things are like across the rift, though. And Fabian will have returned by Dark Imperium. He'll have to be our bridge into Nihilus, and I'm pretty sure we'll see a novel or sub-arc about it in Dawn of Fire, with how it's been set up in recent entries.

[DukeLeto69]

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

People did the siege teach you nothing? Its a 9 part series with book 9 being comprised of between 1 and 100 parts each its own book. 

If these books are big sellers then anything is possible!

 

Main series. Mini series for climax. Novellas for side stories/arcs. A whole other parallel series focused on key characters (that is supposed to be standalone but really isn’t), stories and arcs that are exclusive to a different media type (for now). Etc

 

Let’s hope not!

Edited March 7, 2023 by DukeLeto69

[DarkChaplain]

I mean, Haley and Kyme said on multiple occasions that they've got the thing mostly charted out. They have the twists and reveals planned out. While there is leeway for individual episodes, I don't think this series has ever been planned to grow the way the Heresy was. At the end of the day it's a narrative spine that other stories can be attached to, or sorted by.

 

I mentioned Ashes of Prospero (set pretty much right after Wolftime) as an example before, but there's also Knights of Macragge, the Sicarius novel, which would slot in after Avenging Son. The Emperor's Legion also slots in right there with Avenging Son. I would also not be surprised if the eventual Lords of Silence sequel will fit alongside the Dawn of Fire spine, considering the White Consuls & their torchbearer fleet.

 

The Ragnar vs Ghaz storyline, with the audio drama boxset, also fits in here. Indomitus does, too. Uriel Ventris' The Swords of Calth should also fit in before Dark Imperium puts a definitive endpoint to Dawn of Fire (and as a reminder, the series is called that because it's currently Guilliman's flagship, as the Macragge's Honour is still MIA, and he'll have it back and ditched the DoF for Dark Imperium; and this also ties the Huron Blackheart novel in here)

Stuff like Magnus pulling the Planet of Sorcerers back, or the rest of the Pariah Nexus story beyond Indomitus, would all slot in as "asides" too.

 

In other words: Dawn of Fire as a series doesn't need spinoffs - it's working in reverse. You could go so far as to say that the "spinoffs" were published first, and we're getting a main throughline after the fact. I'll again point out the appendices (which are NOT in the audiobooks, to BL's shame!) to make some things clearer.

DoF is trying to hit milestones or events that serve as examples of the wider conflict, while progressing character arcs and the Hand of Abaddon plotline over its runtime. It's introducing concepts to be picked up on by other authors and knitting the net tighter.

 

With that concept, I don't think a rigidly defined 9 or 12 or however many books don't make much sense to set in stone, though. Doing that from the start would just lead to The Beast Arises level issues again, where something (Sisters of Silence & Deathwatch models) comes along and they shoehorn it in and rewrite the remaining storyline. Or you get the Siege, where you notice there's not enough room to tell all that's left (also a thing that TBA suffered from, if we look at the doubled finale followed by The Beheading having to tie everything up somehow without being above the wordcount).

With the general direction, arcs and reveals laid out, but no one-two-three linear event-based (as opposed to character-based) storyline, there actually is room to add a novel about the Leagues of Votann without bending the series out of shape - if they ever wanted to do that, I'm only using it as an example. It could easily be worked into the series as another defining moment in the early crusade's history, and springboard more novels about the squats by other authors, without compromising the core of what DoF represents.

 

It's got leeway to pull this stuff off, but that doesn't mean that it'll meander for 50 books - we got a clearly defined endpoint, and we're already over halfway there in in-universe time; while some events I'm sure will be featured soon might end up slowing the clocks down as things come to a head, there's a sense of forward momentum in every entry, unlike the Heresy.

[DukeLeto69]

I very much doubt an HH style approach too (and as @DarkChaplain say, this set out with different and admirable intentions).

 

The point of my joking post was more about how BL and the editorial team may plan one thing but if sales are good the accountants/finance team will be pushing for expansion!

[Sothalor]

That's basically what happened with the Horus Heresy series - you can tell from the first few books it was originally intended to be a much shorter series. Then it got bumped to "holy crap they're on the New York Times Bestsellers list" to "it's a setting with stories told in it, we are gonna make all the money" to "in the grim darkness of the far future there are only limited anthologies" to "oh crap people are bored and pissed, wrap it up, wrap it up!"

 

And thus we got the tightly plotted, coordinated, and immaculately planned Siege of Terra.

 

[DarkChaplain]

Well, for the HH, that only holds up for the first 5 books at best.

Looking at publication dates, the books that went off course and in wildly different directions were already being written in parallel with books 4 and 5. The release schedule at the time was actually lightning fast compared to these days - 2 months between Horus Rising and False Gods, 4 til Galaxy in Flames, 5 til Flight of the Eisenstein, 4 til Fulgrim, 3 til Descent of Angels, 5 til Legion, 5 til Battle for the Abyss, 4 til Mechanicum and a further 4 months til the first anthology in Tales of Heresy.

 

Until Tales of Heresy in 2009, they had 3(!) novels per year, and with the publication schedule being what it is, I think that the series was already upscaling well before they could've taken the sales trends fully into account. The opening trilogy was commissioned basically in one batch, and they're a more or less consistent, linear narrative for obvious reasons. But the free for all basically started in batch two, the 2007 releases, and expanded even further in 2008.

 

That they did pivot at some point to really go for the "setting" angle instead is obvious, but I believe that was a decision much later down the road than we commonly assume. I think the real pivot didn't happen til much closer to The First Heretic (November 2010), with Promethean Sun as the first limited edition novella, published in June 2011, and Aurelian in October 2011. There was a year-long gap til the 3rd novella, Brotherhood of the Storm, by which point they definitely knew they got a hot-selling scheme right there.

To hammer it home: We were 16 numbered books in (Age of Darkness) before the first limited edition novella dropped, but even being charitable, about half of those 16 books don't contribute much if anything to the core narrative anymore. And that trend began right in the second year of the series.

[OpossumStrong]

14 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

It is really bugging me at the moment as I’m sure it was announced as 13 before being quickly cut back to 9.  I’ve gone back through all the WarCom entries, forums and even podcast interviews from the period but cannot locate the ear worm I keep hearing in my head 

 

You’re right though, I can’t see it being sorted in just nine books at this stage.

The BIG preview my guess, but can't find it either.