Chaplains and “Power Weapons”

[General Zodd]

Hi all, hoping the hive mind can settle a friendly dispute in my local group.

 

The Chaplain Consul type allows you to upgrade a Power Weapon (PW) to be Master Crafted (MC) for free. The question has essentially arisen from what they mean by PW in that context.

 

I’ve taken it to mean that if you purchase the PW equipment option (which then further breaks down into Sword, Axe, Mace or Lance), it’s *that* PW that may be upgraded.

 

One of my local group then quite reasonably asserted you could apply the MC upgrade to a Thunder Hammer as it’s listed as a type of PW. It’s called out as a rarer type, but still a form of PW.

 

This feels wrong to me given the rest of that list of “rarer” PWs (who ever heard of a Lightning Claw Crozius, for a start, and does that mean also a pair of Lightning Claws?!), but I have zero rules references to say he’s wrong. Apart from the fact the rules unhelpfully use PW as a term for a general set of melee weapons, but also as a specific term for a sub-set of those very same weapons.

 

Please help!

[SkimaskMohawk]

This one is wonky, like usual lol.

 

Hammers, fists and claws all count as 'Power' weapons, but can't be chosen as generic power weapons. You might be thinking that I'm being dumb and just repeating the rules, but I'm trying to call attention to the two different ways they describe them; " 'Power' weapons" and "power weapons" aren't actually the same term.

 

The ranged weapons provide a clearer example, with most groups belonging to a " 'X' weapon" family. There is a weapon called a Flamer and a weapon called a Hand Flamer, with both being 'Flamer' weapons. A weapon swap for a flamer doesn't apply to everything that falls under 'flamer'.

 

So imo, no, you can't mastercraft a power fist, or perdition weapon, or whatever other 'Power' weapon. Because it's for the seperate, near identically named, other subgroup of weapons. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Brother Dallo]

So is the only reason you think that it is not permitted that “power weapon” is a different term from ‘power’ weapon?

 

I.e. if the description in the weapons section said that power fists etc count as “power weapons”, then you’d be fine to master craft a power fist for a Chaplain?

 

Or have I misunderstood your point?

 

It’s worth noting that Word Bearers Tainted Weapons (upgrades for power weapons) do not have a caveat saying they count as a power weapon, so you definitely can’t master craft a tainted maul as a Crozius (which feels sad).

 

Dallo

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Brother Dallo said:

So is the only reason you think that it is not permitted that “power weapon” is a different term from ‘power’ weapon?

 

I.e. if the description in the weapons section said that power fists etc count as “power weapons”, then you’d be fine to master craft a power fist for a Chaplain?

 

Or have I misunderstood your point?

 

 

 

That's essentially it. 'Power' is a class of weapons, like 'Flamer', 'Las', and all the rest; power weapons are a subclass of 'Power' weapons that comprise of the sword, axe, Lance and maul. It's basically a keyword.

 

Again I'll use the similar flamer as my example. You have 'Flamer' weapons and a weapon under that category called a flamer. The salamanders can't upgrade any 'Flamer' weapon to a dragons breath; it's the weapon called a flamer.

 

 

[Cadmus Tyro]

I think its ambiguous (I’m seeing a trend developing in HH2.0…) but would argue you can master craft it. The power weapon sub section states that they “count as” power weapons and refer what we previously knew as power weapons from 1.0 as “generic” power weapons. The chaplains rules do not make that distinction, but that arguably could be an omission.
 

Although, I’m biased as I’m building a Chaplain in Tartaros TDA with a thunder hammer to lead my rampagers….

Either way it’s a fringe benefit for a Chaplain due to “hatred”, only applicable in subsequent rounds of combat. 
 

Cadmus 

[Cleon]

Going to the power weapon section (page 137 of the loyalist book), to quote it :

All weapons listed here are counted as ‘Power’ weapons for those rules that affect such weapons. A model that is eligible
to select a power weapon may take any of the weapons included in this Profile.
(swords, axes etc)
Although technically operated on the same principle, the following weapons are far rarer and more difficult to master
than the more common power weapons. They count as a ‘Power’ weapons, but may not be selected by a model eligible to
claim a generic power weapon.

(claws, hammers etc)
 

I think it's quite clear here what the generic term 'Power Weapon' when encountered for selection refers to.

[Foudroyant Virus]

I think the distinction between power weapons and 'power' weapons is just for the entry "may get a power weapon for 5 Points".

As far as i read it, the only instance this distinction is made is in the wargear option.

so i read it as:

you can take a power weapon for free (axe, sword, etc) but can mastercraft a thunderhammer, powerfist or claw. The entry doenst specifiy that you have to mastercraft the weapon you got as a free power weapon. Not sure if that is as intended, but it is as written :)

 

[General Zodd]

9 hours ago, Foudroyant Virus said:

I think the distinction between power weapons and 'power' weapons is just for the entry "may get a power weapon for 5 Points".

As far as i read it, the only instance this distinction is made is in the wargear option.

so i read it as:

you can take a power weapon for free (axe, sword, etc) but can mastercraft a thunderhammer, powerfist or claw. The entry doenst specifiy that you have to mastercraft the weapon you got as a free power weapon. Not sure if that is as intended, but it is as written :)

 

It definitely isn’t as written, I’m afraid, as it doesn’t mention anything about a free power weapon under Chaplain! It only mentions that a chaplain with a power weapon is able to upgrade it to MC for free. Seeing as you have to purchase that power weapon as a wargear option, we come back to whether they mean the ‘power weapon’ option you’d have to purchase to qualify or any ‘power’ weapon…

Edited March 2, 2023 by General Zodd

[LukeTheButcher]

13 hours ago, General Zodd said:

It definitely isn’t as written, I’m afraid, as it doesn’t mention anything about a free power weapon under Chaplain! It only mentions that a chaplain with a power weapon is able to upgrade it to MC for free. Seeing as you have to purchase that power weapon as a wargear option, we come back to whether they mean the ‘power weapon’ option you’d have to purchase to qualify or any ‘power’ weapon…

 

 

You buy a Legion Centurion. You can buy them a 'Power weapon'.... or a Power Fist... or a Lightening Claw... or a Thunder Hammer.. You then buy the upgrade to Chaplin. You can add Master Crafted to his power Weapon. 'A Chaplin with a power weapon may...". It does not say a Chaplin with a Power Fist.... or a Chaplin with a Lightening claw... or a Chaplin with a Thunder Hammer.... 

 

I admit, I have not read the books cover to cover.... but can you find any instance where anyone would consider 'power weapon' (Sword/axe/maul/lance) interchangeable with Thunder Hammer? It is only in the 'power weapon' section of the Close Combat weapons... because they are not Chain, or Charnabel, or Force.... The descriptive elements of a weapon are not the same as game-play mechanics and list building.

 

As I recall, It has been this way in 6th, in 7th, in HH 1st.... and is the same now.