First Founding

[Jareddm]

Wasn't sure where to put this exactly but I just received my copy and wanted to talk about it.  I've had the book for approximately 5 minutes.  It's certainly gorgeous and has the same style as the Sabbat Worlds Crusade coffee table book.

 

However, I flipped through the intro chapter, which includes a note on terminology that explicitly defines "Primogenitor Chapter" as all chapters of the Second Founding. Okay, cool. It then lists the suspected Primogenitor chapters from the original legions and the list is...downright confusing.

 

Dark Angels: Angels of Absolution, Consecrators, Blades of Vengeance

White Scars: Mantis Warriors, Storm Reapers

Space Wolves: Wolfspear, Wolf Brothers (extinct)

Imperial Fists: Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Celestials [Just Celestials]

Blood Angels: Flesh Tearers, Angels Penitent, Sons of Sanguinius

Iron Hands: Brazen Claws, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa, Iron Lords

Ultramarines: Aurora Chapter, Emperor's Spears, Howling Griffons, Mortifactors

Salamanders: Dragonspears, Storm Giants, Black Dragons

Raven Guard: Raptors, Rift Stalkers.

 

I just...what? This list makes no sense to me. There's Primaris chapters which, okay maybe they're rebuilt chapters that had since died off, but then there's also chapters with known later foundings like the Mantis Warriors, Emperor's Spears, and Angels Penitent. It's also missing plenty of well known Second Founding chapters like the Angels Encarmine or the Genesis Chapter. It feels more like a list of "chapters a random 40k fan could name."

 

Now perhaps this is just intended to be in-universe historical rewrites, but the rest of the books doesn't seem to feel that way and the individual chapter's sections begin with lists of notable successors which often contradict or omit chapters from this list.

 

Just needed to get this off my chest.  Wasn't expecting to find something like this immediately upon opening the book.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jareddm

[RedFurioso]

That's just a list of random Successor Chapters. You can't write "Salamanders: None" referring to 2nd founding, while they have several Ultima founding successors. It will only create misunderstanding...

[Valkyrion]

I don't know if it's against forum rules, though I suspect it is - can you upload the paragraph?

 

Not all second founding chapters are primogenitors, but all primogenitors are second founding chapters. Could be a simple slip of the tongue/wrist/text.

[Jareddm]

1 hour ago, RedFurioso said:

That's just a list of random Successor Chapters. You can't write "Salamanders: None" referring to 2nd founding, while they have several Ultima founding successors. It will only create misunderstanding...

That's why I mentioned the Primogenitor definition prior.  The definition is provided one line above the big bold text called, "The Primogenitors" with the provided list. It very explicitly states it is a list of Primogenitor chapters, not all successors.  Each of the First Founding chapter sections starts with a list of Noted Successor, which differs from the list in the intro. So there is clearly an attempt at a difference.

 

Not going to post a picture as it's a newly released book.

 

EDIT: Fun little side fact as I read through it, Primaris Dark Angels geneseed is considered to be the purest of all geneseed available.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jareddm

[Slave to Darkness]

2 hours ago, Jareddm said:

 

 

EDIT: Fun little side fact as I read through it, Primaris Dark Angels geneseed is considered to be the purest of all geneseed available.

I think I can hear Matt Ward crying into his cornflakes now his fave chapter doesnt have the purest geneseed.

[Felix Antipodes]

Annoying at the least.  There was a forum on here once where we argued debated the semantics of successor vs succeeded from.  Seems we should have added primogenitor to that debate. 

[Moonreaper666]

Many of the Primaris are indeed 10k years old. So technically it is possible to have Primaris Second Founding Chapters

[Brother Tyler]

2 minutes ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Many of the Primaris are indeed 10k years old. So technically it is possible to have Primaris Second Founding Chapters

No, not really. The Second Founding occurred at a specific point in time and under specific circumstances. While a Successor Chapter might be composed purely of Primaris that have been kept on ice since before the Second Founding, it would still be a 27th Founding (or later) Chapter. Yes, it would have a direct lineage to the Legion as with the 2nd Founding Chapters, but the same could be said for any Successor Chapter created from pure Legion gene-seed - there have likely been later founding Firstborn Successors similarly created from pure Legion gene-seed, but they, too, are later (i.e., post-2nd) Founding Chapters.

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Slave to Darkness said:

I think I can hear Matt Ward crying into his cornflakes now his fave chapter doesnt have the purest geneseed.

I thought it has always been the case that the DA had the purest. I remember at least in 3rd edition it mentioned how despite being one of the most pure it had less chapters founded from it than the UM.

[Brother Tyler]

1 hour ago, Felix Antipodes said:

Annoying at the least.  There was a forum on here once where we argued debated the semantics of successor vs succeeded from.  Seems we should have added primogenitor to that debate. 

 

While you may have been referring to some other discussion, the one that sticks out in my mind (because I wrote it) is this one. The reason "primogenitor" wasn't included was because prior to the First Founding book, "primogenitor" was a term that was only used to refer to the 2nd Founding Successors of the Ultramarines Legion (not including the Ultramarines Chapter, though that Chapter was technically created at that time, too). Extending the application of the word to the 2nd Founding Successors of the other Legions isn't that big of a stretch, but it is definitely confusing when later Founding Chapters such as the Black Dragons and Emperor's Spears are also included. By that logic, unless those Chapters are being retconned to now being 2nd Founding Chapters, "primogenitor" is equivalent to "successor" and applies to any Chapter in created in any Founding.

 

Or we can just consider it an inconsistency, whether derived from real-world confusion, deliberate real-world obfuscation, or in-universe confusion (those unreliable narrators and their inconsistent use of words/terms can be fun).

 

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Trying to reconcile all of the inconsistencies is just a recipe for a headache.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There's no way that list is intended to be second founding chapters, so I'd write it off as an inconsistency in terminology.

 

My copy should arrive this week, so I can't read the passage.

[Jareddm]

3 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

 

While you may have been referring to some other discussion, the one that sticks out in my mind (because I wrote it) is this one. The reason "primogenitor" wasn't included was because prior to the First Founding book, "primogenitor" was a term that was only used to refer to the 2nd Founding Successors of the Ultramarines Legion (not including the Ultramarines Chapter, though that Chapter was technically created at that time, too). Extending the application of the word to the 2nd Founding Successors of the other Legions isn't that big of a stretch, but it is definitely confusing when later Founding Chapters such as the Black Dragons and Emperor's Spears are also included. By that logic, unless those Chapters are being retconned to now being 2nd Founding Chapters, "primogenitor" is equivalent to "successor" and applies to any Chapter in created in any Founding.

 

Or we can just consider it an inconsistency, whether derived from real-world confusion, deliberate real-world obfuscation, or in-universe confusion (those unreliable narrators and their inconsistent use of words/terms can be fun).

 

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Trying to reconcile all of the inconsistencies is just a recipe for a headache.

Exactly, and the Primogenitor definition in the book does mention that the term used to only refer to Ultramarine 2nd founding successors, but that it is now being used to refer to call 2nd founding successors.  The Progenitors, on the other hand, are the chapter that got to keep the name of the legion.  And for completeness, the definition of successor provided is, "A collective grouping of all chapters of shared gene-seed from whatever founding, excepting the Progenitor chapter itself."

 

EDIT: A few other fun facts as I read through.  Not sure how many of these are new though.

-Apothecaries from chapters with more "unique" gene-seed have been found messing with Primaris gene-seed to try to bring back traits they felt defined the chapter.

-Dark Angels share their recruiting worlds between successors.  This fact is kept hidden from the Administratum.

-Dark Angels successors have been known to use the other 'Wings' to name their 1st and 2nd companies.

-White Scars dreadnoughts usually give up their old name, and take up the name of one of the 1st company who left with the Khan. This is because neither they nor the lost company shall ever feel the touch of Chogorian ground or air.

-Every host of the Feast of Blades has their own traditions for how it is to be done.  Some require all fights to be blindfolded, or not to use metal weapons, or require every participant to fight every other participant round-robin style (leading to the longest feast in history of 310 days).  Or in the case of the Executioners, everyone boards a derelict ship from different sides and it's a free-for-all to collect trophies from other participants (weapon, armour plate, finger, hand, etc).

Edited March 2, 2023 by Jareddm

[Felix Antipodes]

That’s what I get for relying on my age addled memories (they seem to be getting worse every day .  That was indeed one of the discussions I was thinking about - the other was on another forum.  Now I'm rereading that discussion as a refresher…

It also serves me right for getting huffy about something I’m yet to read myself (mine is also still in the clutches of the dreaded postal service).  The definitions given above by @Jareddm seem fine to me.

The White Scars custom is interesting.  I quite like it.  Do they say anything about the IF geneseed, noting their Primaris recruits are technically ‘purer’ that the rest of the Chapter who are from the amalgamated geneseed of several other IF successors?

[DukeLeto69]

5 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

No, not really. The Second Founding occurred at a specific point in time and under specific circumstances. While a Successor Chapter might be composed purely of Primaris that have been kept on ice since before the Second Founding, it would still be a 27th Founding (or later) Chapter. Yes, it would have a direct lineage to the Legion as with the 2nd Founding Chapters, but the same could be said for any Successor Chapter created from pure Legion gene-seed - there have likely been later founding Firstborn Successors similarly created from pure Legion gene-seed, but they, too, are later (i.e., post-2nd) Founding Chapters.

Uuurrgghh I know this is a bit off topic but I HATE the whole Primaris on ice thing. Hate it.

[System Sound]

5 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

There's no way that list is intended to be second founding chapters, so I'd write it off as an inconsistency in terminology.

 

My copy should arrive this week, so I can't read the passage.

They list Angels Penitent there. There's no way in all hells that they are. Since Penitent are "rebranded" Angels Resplendant. Either there's a really big :cuss: up on someones part, or this book is written in-universe form. Most of these kinds of source books are. Eg.; Liber Chaotica, Liber Xenologis, Militarum Field Guide, ect.

[Urauloth]

I see the ambiguity has finally been removed re: Black Dragons being a Salamanders successor chapter?

[Jareddm]

7 hours ago, System Sound said:

They list Angels Penitent there. There's no way in all hells that they are. Since Penitent are "rebranded" Angels Resplendant. Either there's a really big up on someones part, or this book is written in-universe form. Most of these kinds of source books are. Eg.; Liber Chaotica, Liber Xenologis, Militarum Field Guide, ect.

I wanted to believe it was a fully in-universe book as well, but there's just some stuff that doesn't fit that.  For instance, the Dark Angels section gives the classic info about the Fallen and the fact that Luther is both alive and has escaped. Whereas the Imperial Fists detailing of the Iron Cage says that the enemy they fought is kept secret by the chapter and the Inquisition.

 

I will note that each chapter has a different author and I have a feeling each decided whether they wanted to write theirs in-universe or omniscient independently.

Guy Haley: Introduction, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, 

Callum Davis: White Scars, Ultramarines, Raven Guard

John French: Imperial Fists

David Guymer: Iron Hands

Nick Kyme: Salamanders

 

1 hour ago, Urauloth said:

I see the ambiguity has finally been removed re: Black Dragons being a Salamanders successor chapter?

Yep, listed both in the crazy intro list and in the notable successors section for the Salamanders.

 

8 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

The White Scars custom is interesting.  I quite like it.  Do they say anything about the IF geneseed, noting their Primaris recruits are technically ‘purer’ that the rest of the Chapter who are from the amalgamated geneseed of several other IF successors?

No mention of the events of The Beast Arises at all.

[Kelborn]

How thick is the book itself and are the chapters covered equally in terms of pages?

 

Does it really add stuff or is it a retelling of established lore?

 

What I'm reading here is partially confusing and partially meh :/

[Jareddm]

302 pages, 29-32 pages for each chapter, usually with 5-6 full page images, plus plenty of smaller artwork. About an equal mix of new art and codex/novel cover art.

 

It's mostly a retelling of established lore with the occasional footnote of new info, though I haven't read the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, or Salamander sections yet.

[Gamiel]

8 hours ago, System Sound said:

Either there's a really big up on someones part, or this book is written in-universe form

My reading is that it's a IU book, written by the same how-can-they-know-that people that wrote the Index Astartes articles.

[Felix Antipodes]

Not well pleased about Davis writing three chapters.  Probably my least favourite staff writer.  Hope to pleasantly surprised then 

[aa.logan]

13 hours ago, Jareddm said:

302 pages, 29-32 pages for each chapter, usually with 5-6 full page images, plus plenty of smaller artwork. About an equal mix of new art and codex/novel cover art.

 

It's mostly a retelling of established lore with the occasional footnote of new info, though I haven't read the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, or Salamander sections yet.

Feeling a touch let down by the number of blank pages- at the end of each chapter’s chapter. Actually quite a lot of blank space in the book generally. I’ve only had a cursory glance through, but it differs from the previous unambiguously in-universe books; the page layout is comparatively sparse with a ‘clean’ design.

 

Biggest let down is what I’d feared though- most of the double page colour spreads are stuck together along the bottom on my copy- separating them has led to unfortunate white marking at the bottom of the lovely art. Not ideal.

 

(Now that I’ve typed that out, I’m aware that it makes me sound like I *really* like the book.)

[Nagashsnee]

Guy Haley Blood Angels makes me happy.

 

Sad to hear about blank spaces/pages. But still Even 250ish pages is still a beefy book and bigger then i expected personally so still pleased. 

 

Hope they do one for wider Imperial factions and maybe dare i say....non imperial too. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Felix Antipodes]

I feel a ‘First Traitors’ companion book is almost inevitable.  Where they go from there will depend on sales figures.  Not that they can have ‘bad’ figures since they don't make enough copies to effectively gauge customer interest.

[System Sound]

Finally got my copy.

 

So here's the terminology:

 

A Note on Terminology.

Progenitor Chapter: Chapter that retained the name of the founding Legion.

 

First Founding Chapter: A Progenitor Chapter. The Chapter bearing the name of the  parent Legion.

 

Successor Chapters: Originally, this referred only to the Chapters created from a  Legion in the Second Founding but not bearing the Legion name. Over time it has come to mean a collective grouping of all Chapters of shared gene-seed from what-  ever founding, excepting the Progenitor Chapter itself. 

 

Primogenitor Chapter: 'First born'. Initially a term referring only to the Successor  Chapters (in the original sense) of the Ultramarines, it is now widely used to mean.  all Chapters of the Second Founding, i.e. those Chapters created from one of the nine  loyal Legions, but not bearing the Legion name.

 

And the suspected Primogenitor chapters:

 

Dark Angels: Angels of Absolution, Consecrators, Blades of Vengeance 

White Scars: Mantis Warriors, Storm Reapers 

Space Wolves: Wolfspear, Wolf Brothers (extinct)  Imperial Fists: Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Celestials 

Blood Angels: Flesh Tearers, Angels Penitent, Sons of Sanguinius 

Iron Hands: Brazen Claws, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa, Iron Lords 

Ultramarines: Aurora Chapter, Emperor's Spears, Howling Griffons, Mortifactors

Salamanders: Dragonspears, Storm Giants, Black Dragons 

Raven Guard: Raptors, Rift Stalkers