First Founding

[Subtleknife]

It's also confirmed it the book that the Dark Angels are still a thing in 60k...could old GW proof reading strikes again.

 

Apart from that the book is lovely. Very happy with my purchase.

[Sothalor]

So after some shipping shenanigans, this book finally arrived.

 

Flipping it through it briefly and quickly - I'm honestly rather disappointed.

 

For something marketed as a coffee table style art and lore book, there's a notable lack of art and... call it design aesthetics. (Maybe somebody else has the proper vocabulary to enunciate this.)

 

There's a lot of reused art from codices and previous publications - fair enough, that was always to be expected. But the art density feels real low, like one or two pieces per two-page spread. Notably lacking are things like pictures of relic gear or chapter-specific patterns of arms and armor (things that had been present in... I want to say 6th Edition codices or so). That cool stylized in-universe painting of the Khan that WHC used to flaunt the book? There's very little of stuff like that.

 

Furthermore, the amount of blank, white unused space on each page is galling. I'm talking gigantic blank margins. Why wouldn't they at least reuse the... what would you call it? Background art layouts? Stuff from the rulebooks and codices - the gothic statues lining the borders and edges of the pages, Imperial iconography, mortis symbols, Chapter paraphernalia, etc.

 

Initial quick flip-through response made me go "I paid a lot for a whole bunch of white paper."

[Felix Antipodes]

Just got mine as well.  Even by their own definition (which I like) the list of ‘suspected’ Primogenitors is suspect at best and outright wrong overall.  Several of the Chapters listed are Primaris for a start.  Others have been around in the lore for years without a set Founding but seem unlikely (Howling Griffons, Iron Lords) or have been linked/hinted  to the Cursed Founding (Black Dragons).

Frankly, it seems to be a conglomeration of staff’s own creations and/or favourites.  Most disappointing from someone of Haley’s experience.  For Emperor’s sake, they have Wade on staff now.  Use the knowledge base available to you!

Only halfway through att but I don’t feel it can be passed off as ‘in setting’.  Too many things mentioned not known to the average citizen (The Fallen - as others have pointed out - among others).

for me, this type of book is meant to be an immersive lore read to settle into and enjoy.  Something as jarring as this - right under their own terminology explanation - destroys that warm buzz and spoils the mood.  Imho.

[theSpirea]

Got my copy as well and agree with the previously mentioned comments about the number of blank pages and in general empty/white space. So many pages with only a short paragraph or 4 lines, with already ridiculous margins. I don't even want to know the actual word count. I haven't read much of it yet so can't comment on lore accuracy/writing quality.

 

Luckily, I got the book for a really good price otherwise asking $75 for this is a bit overkill.

[Kelborn]

Well, guess I'll safe my money and get me some stuff, which isn't available anymore in paperback although being released like 1 or 2 years ago!, on eBay instead.

 

Thanks guys. Appreciate your shared thoughts!

[Gamiel]

I liked what I have seen in the book. Could it been better, yes. Do I want more, yes. But with what we got I’m satisfied.

 

And my reading of the whole terminology problems and inconveniences with earlier material/other parts of the book is good old GW muddling the water, and having that: 10.000 years of lost knowledge, misunderstandings, =][= purges and "fixing" of history, showing in the book.

[Nagashsnee]

Getting worried about all the talk of blank space/pages. And the noted lack of page adornments which are not only easy to do but scream 40k to me. 

 

Are they at least some cherubs scattered about? Did the corpse babies make the cut? 

[System Sound]

Comparing this to how great the reprints of Liber Chaotica, Sabbat Worlds Crusade and Liber Xenologis were, which are massive tomes, this feels very last minute "let's throw together some unused art (that I bet are from 10ed codicies) and get some staff to writte a bit of text. Bada bum, bada bum, 65€ please!

Edited March 7, 2023 by System Sound

[Jareddm]

When this book was first announced, I thought it was going to be a collection of the lore from the 8th edition codex supplements, which each had an insane amount of lore, right down to a full page description and history for each individual company of every chapter.  I am a little sad they didn't take the opportunity to incorporate more of that lore here.

[theSpirea]

I wish/hope GW one day realize there are people interested/ready to buy lore books. I know plenty of people who would buy compilations of Battletomes/Codices, narratives like Arks of Omen or Broken Realm. But I'm not paying $60 for one book of approx 120 pages and more than half of it are rules/battle scenarios I have zero use for.

[Sothalor]

Yeah, 40k lorebooks in the style of Warhammer Fantasy's The End Times would be really nice to see.

 

Now before anybody jumps down my throat "End Times'ing muh 40k" REEE I'm not talking about what they did with the narrative direction of the franchise. I'm talking about the format and content density.

 

The End Times books were comprised of two books per "act": narrative and rules. The narrative books were big, weighty hardcovers packed full of narratives and artwork. They went into detail on character emotions, thought processes, campaign progress. Each battle they showcased also had a "notable participants" breakdown, little lore descriptions of the units and characters involved. And I'm not talking codex descriptions "these guys have spears, they go poke with big sticks." It had things like how this militia group had been raised by so-and-so lord of some town and had a reputation for boldness in battle but would always loot the surrounding countryside, or how this lord had been foretold for great things but never lived up to it. They had character, flavor.

 

[Malkydel]

20 minutes ago, theSpirea said:

I wish/hope GW one day realize there are people interested/ready to buy lore books. I know plenty of people who would buy compilations of Battletomes/Codices, narratives like Arks of Omen or Broken Realm. But I'm not paying $60 for one book of approx 120 pages and more than half of it are rules/battle scenarios I have zero use for.

I suppose these days there's the Vault, to let people access the Codex/Campaign lore sides of things.

[theSpirea]

I know there's the Vault and other options but with these kinds of books (art/lore) I prefer physical copies. It's not the same reading it on a tablet/laptop/screen

[DarkChaplain]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:16 AM, System Sound said:

They list Angels Penitent there. There's no way in all hells that they are. Since Penitent are "rebranded" Angels Resplendant. Either there's a really big up on someones part, or this book is written in-universe form. Most of these kinds of source books are. Eg.; Liber Chaotica, Liber Xenologis, Militarum Field Guide, ect.

 

My headcanon is that Guy Haley really loves Peter Fehervari's stories and wanted them included to promote his stories :') The Angels Penitent were featured in Devastation of Baal too, btw.

[Gamiel]

Re. Angels Penitent do I just want to point out that the Angels Penitent that we see in Adeptus Astartes: Successor Chapters don't look like the AP:s that appear in Fehervari's stories, and in that book we have both Angels Penitent and Angels Resplendent appearing at the same time, and the later also don't look like how the AR are described in Fehervari's stories. For all we know could it be IU mistakes, or a question of two (or even three) Chapters with the same name. 

 

  

7 hours ago, Jareddm said:

right down to a full page description and history for each individual company of every chapter.

They seems to have stoped with that overall. Maybe as a way  to prevent hearding in authors and hobbyists with a "this is how it looks, period". Also since 40k's "now" is spread out over the start of the Indomitus crusade to notable times beyond it do I think that kind of list would very seldom fit with what's going on in a story/codex/flashpoint's "now". 

[WARMASTER_]

 

On 3/2/2023 at 2:36 AM, Brother Tyler said:

While you may have been referring to some other discussion, the one that sticks out in my mind (because I wrote it) is this one. The reason "primogenitor" wasn't included was because prior to the First Founding book, "primogenitor" was a term that was only used to refer to the 2nd Founding Successors of the Ultramarines Legion (not including the Ultramarines Chapter, though that Chapter was technically created at that time, too). Extending the application of the word to the 2nd Founding Successors of the other Legions isn't that big of a stretch, but it is definitely confusing when later Founding Chapters such as the Black Dragons and Emperor's Spears are also included. By that logic, unless those Chapters are being retconned to now being 2nd Founding Chapters, "primogenitor" is equivalent to "successor" and applies to any Chapter in created in any Founding.

I haven’t read the new book but from the chapters used they're calling “Primogenitor” I guess we could infer that they’re now calling direct lineage chapters “Primogenitor” chapters, so any chapter from 2nd founding onwards directly sired by the Ultramarines gene seed and not another chapter of that line 

 

So, While the Emperors Spears are a much later founding [25th] as their gene seed is still directly taken from Ultramarine reserves [Confirmed by ADB] they’re named a “Primogenitor” chapter

 

Where as The Iron Champions + Crimson Axes while still Imperial Fist successors wouldn’t be classed as “Primogenitor” chapters because their lineage comes by way of the Executioners chapter gene seed reserves
 

It’s an interesting thought if it’s not just an inconsistency of multiple authors writing on the same topic 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by WARMASTER_
Grammar

[RedFurioso]

2 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Where as The Iron Champions + Crimson Axes while still Imperial Fist successors wouldn’t be classed as “Primogenitor” chapters because their lineage comes by way of the Executioners chapter gene seed reserves

 

Mantis Warriors are Marauders' successors, by that logic they are not Primogenitors. In the book they are called Primogenitors, though.

[WARMASTER_]

3 hours ago, RedFurioso said:

Mantis Warriors are Marauders' successors, by that logic they are not Primogenitors. In the book they are called Primogenitors, though.

As I said I haven’t got the book so I didn’t know all the Chapters listed this way, Mantis warriors are believed to by via the Marauders but in lore that’s also murky, although seems like I’m probably wrong though with my assumption 

[Cactus]

System Sound quoted the explanation of the terminology back here.

[Nagashsnee]

Received mine yesterday, i do not regret the purchase and wont be getting rid of it. But other have said the internal design both page by page but also of the overall book is simple bad. So much empty white space. Entire pages of it in some cases.  For a setting/company that has in the past shown how much better its products are when designed with the gothic/grim dark/majestic imperial aesthetic applied to its book this  is baffling.   

 

Also HUGE lost oportunity to make up/mention some notable members from the chapters not blessed with 9+ special characters.  Instead some like Blood Angels and the Wolfs get a heroes of the chapter section when for most its just missing. Would it have killed them to make up 1-2 single page background on a notable white scar stormseer or a salamander captain? Not everyone with a name needs to have a mini and it would have giving these chapters some much needed life.  Plus you know NEW dudes. 

 

Overall 5/10 Nice enough but bare minimum done in every aspect. 

[Felix Antipodes]

This was one of my biggest gripes as well.  There was so much they could have done with the contents of this book when looking at these Chapters - their origins post HH and their current status.  I’m not as cut up about the amount of white space, but GW/BL have done the same thing but better in the past.

[The Scorpion]

On 3/6/2023 at 12:32 PM, System Sound said:

Finally got my copy.

 

So here's the terminology:

 

A Note on Terminology.

Progenitor Chapter: Chapter that retained the name of the founding Legion.

 

First Founding Chapter: A Progenitor Chapter. The Chapter bearing the name of the  parent Legion.

 

Successor Chapters: Originally, this referred only to the Chapters created from a  Legion in the Second Founding but not bearing the Legion name. Over time it has come to mean a collective grouping of all Chapters of shared gene-seed from what-  ever founding, excepting the Progenitor Chapter itself. 

 

Primogenitor Chapter: 'First born'. Initially a term referring only to the Successor  Chapters (in the original sense) of the Ultramarines, it is now widely used to mean.  all Chapters of the Second Founding, i.e. those Chapters created from one of the nine  loyal Legions, but not bearing the Legion name.

 

And the suspected Primogenitor chapters:

 

Dark Angels: Angels of Absolution, Consecrators, Blades of Vengeance 

White Scars: Mantis Warriors, Storm Reapers 

Space Wolves: Wolfspear, Wolf Brothers (extinct)  Imperial Fists: Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Celestials 

Blood Angels: Flesh Tearers, Angels Penitent, Sons of Sanguinius 

Iron Hands: Brazen Claws, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa, Iron Lords 

Ultramarines: Aurora Chapter, Emperor's Spears, Howling Griffons, Mortifactors

Salamanders: Dragonspears, Storm Giants, Black Dragons 

Raven Guard: Raptors, Rift Stalkers

Something must be wrong with that definition: the Emperor's Spears, Consecrators, Mantis Warriors, Angels Resplendent/Penitent, Black Dragons, Howling Griffons, and many more are clearly not Second Founding. Maybe it means that they were created from a First Founding Chapter? Even if their funding was actually somewhere around M36. As opposed to being a successor of, say, the Novamarines, which are themselves descended of the Ultras.