Should the Emperor have kept Magnus on Terra?

[Karhedron]

We have discovered various snippets of information about the Primarchs during the HH novels but some in particular lead to this question.

 

1. Magnus was vitally important to the future of the Imperium as he was the key to the Webway Project. It would have been his role to sit on the Golden Throne and control the opening and closing of the Webway portal as well as stabilising the man-made section of webway that joined Terra to the main network. This cannot be underplayed, Magnus was absolutely vital to the future of the Imperium.

 

2. The Emperor and Malcador knew that not all the Primarchs would necessarily survive the Great Crusade. Part 1 of The End and Death confirms that they expected to lose at least some of the Primarchs. Some of them share overlapping skillsets such as Dorn and Perturabo, Sanguinius and Curze etc. The loss of the 2nd and 11th Primarchs confirm this was not just a theoretical risk.

 

3. The Legions operated best when led by their Primarchs but most were still pretty effective without them. Several Legions operated for decades before they were reunited with their progenitors.

 

That being the case, why was Magnus risked on the front lines of the Crusade? There was no back-up or contingency in case something happened to him. The Great Crusade could have continued effectively with one less Primarch, especially as the 15th Legion was pretty small to begin with. If Magnus was so vital, it would have made more sense to keep him on Terra where he could probably even have assisted with the webway project.

[MARK0SIAN]

I’m not sure when it was first revealed Magnus was meant to sit on the throne but could it just be a case of a retcon running into a logical problem?

 

In other words, originally Magnus wasn’t intended by the original lore creators to run the webway so it was fine for him to be off crusading, but this was later retconned by the heresy writers which in turn created this issue that he seems like he would be too valuable to risk. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Good for Magnus he didn’t have to sit on the throne. To me the whole thing is highly contrived.

[lansalt]

My headcanon is that the Emperor must have know about Magnus being compromised by Tzeench from the start. There's no way that he missed the signs of corruption when he arrived at Prospero or wasn't aware of the tutelaries or the Changeling at Nikaea. So he kept him in the dark as long as possible to protect the Webway project, as he also needed him to conquer planets and defeat specially difficult enemies elsewhere. Presumably there was a plan to  bring him into the Project in a safe way later (a variation of what we saw in Fury of Magnus), but the Chaos Gods acted first and the rest is history.

 

There's other possibility, though: That the Webway Project was a lie. Another layer of deception by the Emperor, which always intended to sit on the Golden Throne for millennia to become a god. There are several hints of this possible plot twist: The conversation in the Valdor novel, the cues about even Malcador not knowing everything, Valdor himself not knowing about the importance of bringing Magnus alive or he being deceived about the Magnus meeting in FoM, Vulkan noticing in EoE that the human webway looks crude and rushed and wondering if it would ever have actually worked...

[Arkangilos]

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

My headcanon is that the Emperor must have know about Magnus being compromised by Tzeench from the start. There's no way that he missed the signs of corruption when he arrived at Prospero or wasn't aware of the tutelaries or the Changeling at Nikaea. So he kept him in the dark as long as possible to protect the Webway project, as he also needed him to conquer planets and defeat specially difficult enemies elsewhere. Presumably there was a plan to  bring him into the Project in a safe way later (a variation of what we saw in Fury of Magnus), but the Chaos Gods acted first and the rest is history.

I agree more with the first half.

Magnus was a back up, but I think you are right that the Emperor knew he was compromised. With the latest book it seems to show that he did have plans for rehabilitating primarchs after the GC,  and I think that Magnus would be one of the ones he would have brought back once he was ready. 
 

But it does also say that there were regrets he didn’t share more of his plan with his sons. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Once you go to Chaos there’s no coming back… you’re rotten to the core.

[Arkangilos]

5 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Once you go to Chaos there’s no coming back… you’re rotten to the core.

I don’t know, the Emperor gave him another chance after Prospero. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t remember that happening.

[MARK0SIAN]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I don’t remember that happening.

It’s in Fury of Magnus

Spoiler

The Emperor offers Magnus a chance at redemption and the opportunity to join him at the cost of abandoning his Legion.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Didn’t know that… Magnus made the right decision.

[lansalt]

20 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Didn’t know that… Magnus made the right decision.

Did he? Out of pride he selfishly chose to keep his doomed legionaries (corrupted by his own fault) over saving the Imperium and humanity from the chaos gods.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Loyalty is everything. And in regards to what I said previously knowing this now I’ll make an exception for Magnus.

Edited March 4, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Special Officer Doofy]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:44 PM, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Once you go to Chaos there’s no coming back… you’re rotten to the core.

 

Towards the end of Godblight the Emperor (through Guilliman) says something about Mortarion being redeemable.

 

"You are a traitor," Guilliman said, in a voice that was not quite his own. "You have brought low all that could have been, but you are as much a victim as a monster, Mortarion. Perhaps one day you might be saved. Until then you have to go back to the master you chose."

 

I mean I didn't look too far into it. I think the line was more about the human side of the emperor realizing he could have done better by some of the primarchs (or at least has some regrets) versus a chaos primarch becoming good again. I think the Chaos Gods are petty enough they would sooner kill off a traitor primarch before letting them switch teams again haha.

 

I would put Magnus in a similar situation as Mortarion. A victim as much a monster. My opinion of course.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not sure the Emperor needed Magnus particularly more than other Primarchs. They were all Warp creatures in essence, so I reckon any of them could be "used" for the Golden Throne, though efficiency and effectiveness might have been compromised perhaps. Some evidence to support this is Guilliman being able to use the Emperor's Sword despite not being noted for being Psychic like some of his brothers.

 

Conjecture as we just don't know, but I find it hard to believe the Emperor hinged all his plans on a single variable. He's planned for "his moment" for tens of thousands of years after all.

 

Regarding the task of leading the Legions, there was a feeling that no Legion could survive the loss of their Primarch and to an extent this was true - they invariably split up.

 

Not a massive issue when the Legions often fight spread across space, but remember for some enemies entire Legions were required to prosecute them. Several quite often, so Legions did need their Primarchs.

 

The Forge World books explain a good few battles and circumstances of the Great Crusade and things were very difficult for a time. Likely taking the galaxy was too difficult an undertaking to reduce the numbers by a Legion and Primarch unless you had to. We don't know for definite but the way the Emperor referred to the circumstances around Angron (the whole "half a Primarch is better than no Primarch at all" concept) we can presume the Primarchs are considered too crucial a resource to waste doing nothing on Terra.

 

It's likely the loss of a Legion slowed the progress of the Great Crusade quite substantially.

 

Another aspect to consider is the fact not all the Legions were created at once. So maximum manpower wouldn't have existed until the Emperor had finally created all Legions.

 

Which would have taken time and resources to do. Considering the Thousand Sons were a lame duck upon inception, we can deduce they represented a drain on resources compared to output until Magnus arrived and "fixed" them. As such, to maintain a fighting force, from the Imperium's perspective, required the genetic material from source, so Magnus had to stick with his Legion.

[Captain Idaho]

@Special Officer Doofy interesting line for sure. I'm inclined to believe "saved" references the soul of Mortarion rather than switching teams to the goodies. He'll likely be killed.

 

Having said that, the game of Regicide with Malcador that the Emperor plays sees a reference to Ferrus Manus where the Emperor says "I might fix that one day" which was enigmatically made...

Edited March 5, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[redmapa]

If Magnus was meant to sit in the Throne forever then I think the Emperor didn't share that info simply because it reduces Magnus to a tool to be used and discarded and that mightve pushed him to treason even faster, I think it's a question of who appeals to Magnus pride and tempts him to their side first and the Emperor just lost the oportunity to make him see sitting on the throne as a good thing because it's not, there's no way to spin eternal torture and being made for that that would convince Magnus to be that imo he lost that when the gods scattered Magnus and gave him a society of freedom and inquisitiveness where he was king, how do you convince someone who has such powers and position to bend the knee and become less than human? I don't think the Emperor figured that out and Tzeentch orchestrated circumstances so Magnus didn't have a choice and it appealed to his ego.

 

If the Emperor had raised him in Terra then I can see it working but I think he gave up that idea when the Primarchs were scattered.

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Having said that, the game of Regicide with Malcador that the Emperor plays sees a reference to Ferrus Manus where the Emperor says "I might fix that one day" which was enigmatically made...

 

I have always had a problem with this line. Remember that the Emperor could not fix Angron and he was still alive. The Emperor would not remove the Nails because it would kill him. If the Emperor could fix being dead, there is no way he would have inflicted a broken Primarch on the War Hounds.

 

Speaking of Angron, there is another Primarch who was definitely a victim. He was doomed the moment the Nails were hammered into his skull.

[Captain Idaho]

See I see it as deeper than that. In much the same way the Emperor speculates saving Mortarion somehow, I think it's a question of souls. We don't know whether the souls of the Primarchs were shards of the Emperor, something else entirely put into mortal bodies or their own creation, but we know the Primarchs are tied to the Warp.

 

I suspect when the Emperor talks about fixing a Primarch, he doesn't mean in the Mortal Realm entirely. The potential is all over the place of course; is it reincarnation, is it a case of utising the soul for something else, is it a case of retrieving the essence of the soul and absorbing it back within himself?

 

I don't think it is logically inconsistent if we consider such things like the repair Manus line alongside the other unknowns and possibilities therefore. 

 

Obviously it could just take many years of work to fix a dead Primarch and it might not be easily done? But that would be fair boring an answer I reckon!

Edited March 5, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Arkangilos]

11 hours ago, redmapa said:

If Magnus was meant to sit in the Throne forever then I think the Emperor didn't share that info simply because it reduces Magnus to a tool to be used and discarded and that mightve pushed him to treason even faster

On the contrary, it would have been exactly what Magnus wanted. It is explained that Magnus would be able to explore everything he wanted to explore with the Emperor actively exploring it with him. His mind would be free to be anywhere.

The Golden Throne only became torture because Magnus broke the project and the Emperor had to constantly fight that while also fighting everything else.

 

Malcador said that if the Emperor didn't have to deal with Horus AND the webway, he could have fixed it. The problem was he had to do everything at once, and that is what made it torture.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Arkangilos

[MegaVolt87]

I see it more as Emps didn't anticipate just how powerful Magnus would be as a psyker. His ability is at minimum on par, if not greater than the Emperor as it is. Also keep in mind, Malcador and the Emperor thought it would be smart to show the anti psyker guy (Morty) the Webway project, vs someone who could have helped make it etc. If Magnus was helping with the webway, I don't think he would have issue staying on Terra, plus Emps and Magnus psyker ability gives them something to bond over. If you have even one thing in common with a parent, the relationship is better vs being completely opposite people. Also remember, the chaos gods obstructed the Emperors insight, which is why he could see problems with some primarchs but miss them in others. Example- Sang vs Konrad, both similarly flawed but I doubt Emps saw Sang's flaws at all. 

[lansalt]

On 3/6/2023 at 1:57 AM, Arkangilos said:

 The problem was he had to do everything at once, and that is what made it torture.

IIRC both the Path of Heaven and The End and the Death say that the torture of sitting in those webway thrones is a result of feeding in the soul energy of the user to function.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

IIRC both the Path of Heaven and The End and the Death say that the torture of sitting in those webway thrones is a result of feeding in the soul energy of the user to function.

 

Fury of Magnus suggests it would not have been torture for Magnus. In his vision of the future, he sees his body sitting on the Golden Throne but his mind is free to explore the Great Ocean. For him it is not torture but an opportunity. Of course he could just be seeing what the Emperor wanted him to see.

 

4 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 Example- Sang vs Konrad, both similarly flawed but I doubt Emps saw Sang's flaws at all. 

 

The Great Angel implies that the Emperor and even some others were aware of Sanguinius's issues. That may even have been part of the reason he was passed over for the role of Warmaster.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Karhedron

[Valkyrion]

Could Magnus have done the job even if he was unwilling? e.g Vulkan beats him down and drags him to the golden throne and the emperor plugs him in.

[Captain Idaho]

Well we have to determine exactly what the Golden Throne does to even speculate on that. Is it just a giant light bulb, or something more?

 

The Emperor has been said by some to want to push Humanity's evolution artificially, essentially making everyone a Perpetual (which itself was undefinable by the person making this claim...) so can the Golden Throne do this? Or contribute to this? Does it allow the focal point of humanity to be moulded as a Chaos God might, in which case an unwilling Magnus would be a liability or a danger?

 

Soooo many questions. 

[lansalt]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well we have to determine exactly what the Golden Throne does to even speculate on that. Is it just a giant light bulb, or something more?

Going by Path of Heaven and the End and the Death, the thrones are webway/warp manipulation machines that require a powerful psyker to control them, who in turn is burned and drained by the effort. Hence the infamous psyker sacrifices to keep it working and help the Emperor maintain closed the warp breach in the Imperial Dungeon.

So the Golden Throne has never technically kept him alive after his wounds at the hands of Horus, quite the opposite.