Vashtorr and the Cogs

[Prot]

Well they released Vashtorr's dataslate Here. And his army of renown, Cogs of Vashtorr Here.

 

I wanted to get the ball rolling by starting a thread. Personally, I don't have anything good to say about Vashtorr aside from the sculpt, so I don't think I'm going to say much aside from I find him exceptionally disappointing. If you've read the Arks of Omens books, this falls very flat on what this dude is capable of. (Not even a heal? especially that's how how he flexes his way into Abaddon's life. Really missed an opportunity here.)

 

Note that he can be shot at, but can be hidden behind obscuring terrain at least.

 

Where this might be saved is the Cogs. Some cool strats here, and the overall ability to gobble up all the Wantons at once, on all your Daemon Engines. 

 

You might still be better off playing your Daemon Engine armies as IW, but at least this shows some promise and some cool/fun abilities to flex those pieces specifically. 

 

Being a massive chaos fan, I admit I'm picking him up, but my expectations went from "I can't wait" to "I'll paint him one day." Hopefully after a few reps with the Cogs I'll change my mind. (Hey vect'ing your opponent's strats is always fun.) I just think the Arkifail himself falls very flat for me. I think in fact it might be safe to say you would never see him outside of a "Cogs" list. After reading about him, knowing his long term intentions, and seeing the model I just envisioned something much closer to Abaddon in 'stature' as far as being a force of nature, and having aura's that were exceptional for Daemon Engines.  (I also think he's going to be very hard to keep alive.)

 

So what do you think? Will the Arkifane see competitive play? Outside of a Cog army? Will you give him a try? Are you excited to get your Daemon Engines into a Cog list?

Edited March 8, 2023 by Prot

[Kaiju Soze]

Purely theoryhammer, but I'm not convinced having Daemon Engines (and only Daemon Engines) on all Wantons all the time is worth giving up Wanton Acts on other units and your Legion trait.  Not without better stats on the Fiends or a points drop.

[Prot]

16 minutes ago, Kaiju Soze said:

Purely theoryhammer, but I'm not convinced having Daemon Engines (and only Daemon Engines) on all Wantons all the time is worth giving up Wanton Acts on other units and your Legion trait.  Not without better stats on the Fiends or a points drop.

 

I agree about the theoryhammer part, and I appreciate your qualifying your statement with that remark because I feel similar about it. I mean I hate making opinions of this nature about something I haven't tried. But on paper at least, the unit itself, is... looking so bad, I have almost written him off. Something I never do.

 

It's not just his stats that are poor, but his aura's... and he can't actually help himself because.... he's not a Daemon Engine. Wow. So I could go on about what I personally think is wrong with this guy and the list is long, but I'll spare you, and get more to your point...

 

I totally missed that the rest of the army gets no Wantons the first time around (and of course Vashtorr does not.. lol... seriously I cannot get past that.) But yea, your point is valid and what I see as the only plausible saving grace on the Cogs of Vashtorr is the strats. The Legions rulesets are quite superior overall to the CSM units, however the Cog's stats might pull this up a bit. 

 

The problem is... Vashtorr. He MUST be in this army, and he is going to be exceptionally hard to keep alive long enough to have any impact. So it's two real questions here.. is Vashtorr as big dud as I think he is? And can the strats save the Cogs? 

 

At least you can still leverage basic Traitor Astartes relics? I think... like Black Rune? (but whatever you put it on is not benefitting from being a Cog...)

[techsoldaten]

40 minutes ago, Prot said:

Well they released Vashtorr's dataslate Here. And his army of renown, Cogs of Vashtorr Here.

...

So what do you think? Will the Arkifane see competitive play? Outside of a Cog army? Will you give him a try? Are you excited to get your Daemon Engines into a Cog list?

Well, it's clear this guy likes his Daemon Engines and nothing else.

 

Initial thought was I could see a Cog army being used competitively and maybe breaking the top 10. But there are a lot of high AP weapons out there, and this would be a low model count army. Can't imagine it having the same impact as Custodes in the tournament scene, Cogs will run into at least one hard counter at the highest levels of play.

 

Reading through the AoR rules, the picture is a little murky. Noticing the relics / stratagems that allow Daemon Engines to shoot / charge after falling back or advancing. These only affect a single unit per turn and the advance one requires a command point. Having visions of rolling 1s each time it's used, this would probably only more useful if it applied to DEs in general.

 

The Stratagems overall aren't very exciting. Vashtor's Stratagem that gives him a 6" reroll to hit aura for DEs. Thought maybe that should just be part of his profile, 2 CPs might be too much for something that's going to buff 1-2 units max. Beyond that, Stratagems are for maxing out variable attacks, ignoring cover, feel no pain, and increasing CP costs for opponent's Stratagems. There's not much here that really extends the performance of vanilla DEs.

 

The army-wide special ability is great, where every Daemon Engine has all of the CSM Combat Doctrines all at once. With this, can't see a reason to take anything that's not a Daemon Engine (except for backfield objective holders.) 

 

So, most armies would be something like Vashtor, a discolord, forgefiends / venomcrawlers, and some cultists. With continuous buffs to hit / wound, I suppose something like that could place around the top 10 in most touraments. Can't see it placing first, but a skilled player could chew thought some armies with a list like this.

[Kaiju Soze]

You do run into issues since Cultists are still limited and require Legionaries to take.

 

At present, aside from a couple of strategems, I'd rather take Vashtor as an Agent of Chaos in my Red Corsairs than take them as Cogs.

[techsoldaten]

9 minutes ago, Kaiju Soze said:

You do run into issues since Cultists are still limited and require Legionaries to take.

 

At present, aside from a couple of strategems, I'd rather take Vashtor as an Agent of Chaos in my Red Corsairs than take them as Cogs.

Good point.

 

This apply to mutants as well? Haven't used them, don't have the Codex near me.

[Kaiju Soze]

11 minutes ago, techsoldaten said:

Good point.

 

This apply to mutants as well? Haven't used them, don't have the Codex near me.

It does, and same for Traitor Guard.

[tychobi]

Vashtor himself seems like a big ole distraction and expensive for his abilities.  He would be far more dangerous with 5 less wounds.  And a decent ability or two.  3 discos and Vash running up on most armies will be fun.. . but effective?  not sure.  Exploding all the time is fun. . . might make maulers a good bet?  A bit of a gimmick army.  Not going to shake the meta in any great way but jolly good fun for chaos generals and their opponents.  

[Emperor Ming]

Cogs, weren't they power rangers villains

[Closet Skeleton]

3 hours ago, techsoldaten said:

Initial thought was I could see a Cog army being used competitively and maybe breaking the top 10. But there are a lot of high AP weapons out there, and this would be a low model count army. Can't imagine it having the same impact as Custodes in the tournament scene, Cogs will run into at least one hard counter at the highest levels of play.

 

 

Daemon engines don't care about high AP, they have a 3+ save and a 5+ invulnerable and armour of contempt is over so the only AP question is -1 or -2.

 

Daemon engines can't hit top 10 for the same reason that non-carnifex based monster heavy tyranids can't. Their hard counter is the board on every competative terrain map.

 

Vastor at least has fly and under 18 wounds so can just duck around obscuring terrain. He has no defence problems, his issue is that he can't take many friends who also have fly and there's no obsec rule in his army of renown.

[WrathOfTheLion]

My personal thought right now, and there's some tinfoil going on here, is that being in Codex: Chaos Space Marines is a placeholder. Been some rumors of Dark Mech, and I get the feeling in my gut that he's not sticking around permanently in a CSM army. It'd be one thing if he was in Chaos Daemons, but he's not, which is certainly eyebrow raising.

 

I'm going to get the model, as he looks cool. I'd absolutely not build a Cogs army right now with like 3 months left in the edition, especially given my tinfoil thought in the first paragraph. Much better decision to take him as an Agent in your current list if you find a way to use him.

Edited March 9, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Nathan]

Am i wrong in that disco lords get no benifit from cogs?

[Closet Skeleton]

50 minutes ago, Brother nathan said:

Am i wrong in that disco lords get no benifit from cogs?

They have the daemon engine keyword so get the wanton bonus and can take the relics. Its just Vashtor's +1 to hit they can't get.

[TrawlingCleaner]

On Vashtorr, I'm definitely underwhelmed. 260 points for what he offers doesn't seem all that great, if all 3 of his abilites happened every turn, I think he'd be pretty good. Picking 1 ability a turn really tightens the screws on what he can actually do. Where's the "dark lightning clouds and smog"? The heavy flamer is guff and has no sweep profile and neither weapons have a cool name (nitpicky, I know)

Also, Lord of Terror made me wince. I'd forgotten it even existed

 

Having said that, Ghost in the Machine and Agonise Machine Spirits are both absolutely rad abilities. I could be wrong, but I think reducing the range of a units ranged weapon is a unique ability? I'm not sure I've seen this before. It makes things like Gladiator Reapers or Meltas incredibly short range. It'll largely be pretty niche in it's usage but it could definitely come in clutch. It'll never save Vashtorr though, if he's in 18" range to do the ability, he'll be in range to be shot back. Agonise can come in clutch too if you need to slow a Dreadnought down for example, or reduce it's effectiveness in combat.

The hammer is hilarious, although probably overkill into anything other than knights

I love the model and will be picking it up, I definitely want to try him out and see how he does. I think he's probably best as a model just to get stuck into the enemy.

 

For the Army of Renown, it's quite mediocre in the grand scheme of things and I'm so glad! I think auto-take, busted Armies of Renown (Skittari Vets and Crusher Stampede for example) are bad for the game but most importantly, just not fun.

Cogs of Vashtorr looks to be quite fun and is pretty much how I like to build my Iron Warriors army: "How many Daemon Engines can I fit in this list?"

It's definitely on the meme-ier/Fluffier side like the Destroyer Cult AoR but it has some pretty cool tools to boost your Engines. Being in every Wanton makes my Defilers very happy!

Helm of the Cyberphage on a Master of Possession casting Cursed Earth would be a pretty interesting Engine-castle I think. It certainly makes Forgefiends a lot scarier!

Again, it's something I'm going to try out and see how it plays, it's fun and quirky but not army defining.

I think losing the Iron Warrior legion trait, strat and relics (don't forget the Secondary) will be an interesting way of playing too

[Cpt.Danjou]

Those rules are great, now I don't need to spend a lot of money and hours of painting on him.  :)

 

Cpt. Danjou

[techsoldaten]

3 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

On Vashtorr, I'm definitely underwhelmed...

 

Having said that, Ghost in the Machine and Agonise Machine Spirits are both absolutely rad abilities. I could be wrong, but I think reducing the range of a units ranged weapon is a unique ability? I'm not sure I've seen this before. It makes things like Gladiator Reapers or Meltas incredibly short range. It'll largely be pretty niche in it's usage but it could definitely come in clutch.

 

One would think an entity pursuing ascension to Godhood might be capable of greater feats than suppressing guns within their firing range.

 

Cool model and lore, unworthy mechanics. 

[Malakithe]

His abilities might be good if damn near every weapon in the game wasnt outside of 18" range. Guard and T'au be laughing at this guy.

 

Vashtorr...more like Pile-of-Ashtorr after he gets obliterated by standard 24" weapons.

[WrathOfTheLion]

4 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

For the Army of Renown, it's quite mediocre in the grand scheme of things and I'm so glad! I think auto-take, busted Armies of Renown (Skittari Vets and Crusher Stampede for example) are bad for the game but most importantly, just not fun.

Cogs of Vashtorr looks to be quite fun and is pretty much how I like to build my Iron Warriors army: "How many Daemon Engines can I fit in this list?"

It's definitely on the meme-ier/Fluffier side like the Destroyer Cult AoR but it has some pretty cool tools to boost your Engines. Being in every Wanton makes my Defilers very happy!

If you have the stuff already to run it, then I think think it'd probably be fun to run. I know when I recommend not to do it, I really mean don't buy a bunch of new crap to do it 

 

I really wish some units like Oblits or Helbrutes got a little more synergy, but it is what it is. Now to decide if I want to paint him in Xana II colors...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If they opened Cogs up to DAEMON and DAEMON ENGINE units we'd be in business.  After all, he's a wannabe Chaos God -- his favorite toys might be machines, but he still presumably has lesser daemons pacted to him as servants and such.  Warp Talons & Possessed exploding in melee on T1?  Obliterators with exploding guns all game?  It'd be nice to give the engines a little support that wasn't also cut off from every rule that makes them decent on the tabletop.

[Kaldoth]

I'm going to say I'm interested to see what a Cogs army can do, in particular because of the Forge Surge stratagem. For one CP I now get max shots on a defiler, for both the cannon and the flamer? Ectoplasma cannons on a forge fiend are also now max shots? I'm not saying the stratagem is game breaking or anything, but it seems like a relatively cheap fix for a lot of units that may be worth a second look if you've got the points to spend on them. As far as the big man himself, I think he might be slightly overcosted, but not by much.  Yeah it sucks that he's targetable to shooting, but he's got a 2+/4+ and a built in -1 to the damage he takes. Moving 12" on turn 1 with fly means that very poorly named hammer could get into some early combat too. I wouldn't sleep on him. Oh, and another big note is his ability that halves ranged weaponry. It is important to note that it states "units." That means anything. All the melta you usually worry about blowing up your tanks and daemon engines? Gonna have to get a lot closer to get that tasty melta range. I think you're mostly gonna see people playing cogs with cultist blobs, warpsmiths, fiends, defilers, etc. I think it'll hold its own if you lean into it, won't be super competitive, but will be awesome to play and play against. It gives chaos players a reason to play monster mash lists 

[Brother Nathan]

half range being even more powerful against say inferno pistols...

[tychobi]

23 minutes ago, Brother nathan said:

half range being even more powerful against say inferno pistols...

On paper maybe. In practice 6 vs 3inch is basically the same. At 18 inches and LOS this ability fails to reach units that actually care about reduced range and otherwise just force a unit to close in to get their shots.  Probably for the best because if it did work it would be quite powerful. For now opponents have no need to fear the ability, even if he does use it well shoot him and move on. 

[Prot]

Well all I can say is I personally will not walk Vashtorr within 18” of a Multi melta squad to halve their range.  Lol. I’d like to get a few turns with him first. 
 

there’s a lot not to like about Vashtorr’s rules but I did order him. I just really think it’s about his army of renown, and not him. There are 2 strats in particular that I like and a close  third being the Vect. 
 

I may not like his specific rules but I have hope that he’ll get some attention one day. I still think he may see some growth as a real army one day. But for now I’ll accept the cool model and lore he has. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Prot

[Prot]

Well I missed something.... I can't believe I missed this:

 

Quote

Detachments in your army never count as a Legion Detachment (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines), and you cannot use any Legion-specific Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits or psychic powers (e.g. even if such a Detachment only contained Traitoris Astartes units with the Black Legion keyword, it would not count as a Legion Detachment, you cannot use Black Legion Stratagems, you cannot give a Black Legion Character model a Black Legion Warlord Trait, etc.)

 

So I was of the understanding I could only use CSM Relics, and WL traits, and generic CSM Strategems, however I didn't realize until I was having this discussion in one of my playing groups that there is no way to get ObSec into the army at all. I had to look it up myself and sure enough the way I read it, the loss of a Legion Detachment means the loss of Obsec on troops. Wow. this is a real stinker.

 

[Khornestar]

Well, there’s always 10th edition. ;) Enjoy the cool model forever and lament the crummy rules for what, another 2 and a half months?