Setting up for an Imperium Tertius arc?

[b1soul]

History doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes.

 

We would now have Lord Regent Guilliman, Old Man Lion and Primaris Dante.

 

I thought Imperium Secundus was a great idea that unfortunately wasn't executed well in the HH series. It seems the board is set for an Imperium Secundus 2.0 or "Imperium Tertius" in modern 40K.

 

Any thoughts on how this could be handled well or perhaps some of you out there think this idea doesn't really work, e.g. Dante is a far cry from his gene-sire?

 

 

[Scribe]

There are a lot of potential plot hooks, but will GW/BL grasp them? I dont even want to get my hopes up. As the trailer says, "its is our hope, that will damn us."

 

What I hope for, is that even with how terrible it clearly (CLEARLY) is for the Imperium, I hope the Lion flips Rob off, and says hes going to go about things his own way. No Imperium Tertius, no unified front, just ass kicking.

[Cleon]

My hope would be at some point (maybe not straight away) The Lion and Roboute get together, have a disagreement about how things should be done and come to an agreement - Roboute will run one side of the rift his way, The Lion will run the other side his way, both as loyal Imperial space, but different techniques for the different situations and both have a Primarch on hand to help out.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Like how the Chaos Legions are getting little territories that they govern, I suspect they're setting up The Lion, etc. more as Margravates, keeping certain chunks of the Imperium defended.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, b1soul said:

History doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes.

 

We would now have Lord Regent Guilliman, Old Man Lion and Primaris Dante.

 

I thought Imperium Secundus was a great idea that unfortunately wasn't executed well in the HH series. It seems the board is set for an Imperium Secundus 2.0 or "Imperium Tertius" in modern 40K.

 

Any thoughts on how this could be handled well or perhaps some of you out there think this idea doesn't really work, e.g. Dante is a far cry from his gene-sire?

 

 

The imperium secundus is why I’ve been believing the rumors of an AoD style situation coming up.

 

i think lion will operate in nihilus, but leave the administration of the region to Dante while he focuses on fighting.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Cleon said:

My hope would be at some point (maybe not straight away) The Lion and Roboute get together, have a disagreement about how things should be done and come to an agreement - Roboute will run one side of the rift his way, The Lion will run the other side his way, both as loyal Imperial space, but different techniques for the different situations and both have a Primarch on hand to help out.

I don’t see the lion wanting to be in charge of anything that’s not a crusade as long as nihilus is in the dark and facing such serious threats.

 

especially with a large concentration of his own traitorous sons there.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Nephaston]

Yeah, the proverbial Angel of Death might be more inclined to head straight for Nihilus and start ripping and tearing.

 

There's also the chance L-J and G-man don't even meet at first leaving them to guess each others motives.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

56 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Yeah, the proverbial Angel of Death might be more inclined to head straight for Nihilus and start ripping and tearing.

 

There's also the chance L-J and G-man don't even meet at first leaving them to guess each others motives.

I like that idea as it leaves space for the drama of imperial governors and lord generals to be unsure what to do when the Lion’s orders contradict G’s orders, or Dante’s orders.

[Arkangilos]

On 3/23/2023 at 11:14 PM, Scribe said:

What I hope for, is that even with how terrible it clearly (CLEARLY) is for the Imperium, I hope the Lion flips Rob off,

I disagree. I don’t want him to flip Guilliman off in attitude or anything. 
But I would hope that Guilliman just lets him do it (name him warmaster or something) because he would hopefully know the players and how to use them in their greatest strength.

 

Like knowing you could tell your guy to listen to your direct order and micromanage him, but also knowing it would be counter productive so you instead say, “alright, see that hill over there? Just take who you want and take that hill.”

 

The reason I would prefer that is because primarchs are supposed to be geniuses, and surely at this point Guilliman knows a free Lion would do more for him than a micromanaged one forced into a role where they feel like they are being constrained. 
 

It also saves face for Guilliman. “I told him to do x. He instead did y” means Guilliman was directly undermined. He knows that wouldn’t be good for him politically. If he instead doesn’t give restrained x’s, he isn’t undercut and can say at the worst that he will fix something the Lion overdid while not needing to really do anything. It’s a win win.

Imperial backlash response:

”I NEVER TOLD HIM TO DO THAT!” Vs “Ah yes. He had reason to destroy those planets, good preacher. As war marshal he saw it needed to be done.”

 

While privately he can still detest it. It also forces him to support the Lion in things he might have otherwise publicly rebuked him for. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Lord_Ikka]

To be fair, having the Lion named something like Lord Protector Imperial (avoiding Warmaster might be a good idea...) and sending him off while Gulliman stays in charge on Terra and Dante works to regain Nihilis from Baal works well for several reasons-

 

Gulliman is a diplomat, scholar, and ruler who mastered the art of delegating. Regardless of his power and authority, he has always tried to work within systems already established and better them. The Lion is not- he is authoritarian in outlook. I'm not saying the Lion is a bad leader, just that he is a tyrant in the old sense of the word; he rules and others may advise him, but his word is absolute and he suffers no foolishness. Not the greatest sort to be dealing with an already shaky set of High Lords and a potentially hostile Ecclesiarchy. Gulliman may not like that sort of work, but he is much better at it than the Lion ever would be.

 

The Lion is a consummate strategist and tactician, possibly better than Gulliman (though its always hard to tell with Primarchs), and having him go out and basically letting loose on the Imperium's enemies is exactly what the Imperium needs as far as a counter-attack goes. If given resources and free reign, the Lion will do what he and the 1st Legion did best- conquer and defeat the enemy, no matter what they were or how powerful they were. 

 

The Imperium Secondus worked, or at least it worked well enough for it not to go down in flames right away. The three Primarchs played to their strengths with the Lion coordinating the military, Gulliman the administration, and Sanguinius being basically the heart of everything. It created stability during the Ruinstorm and the Imperium right now needs some sort of stability with all the difficulties it faces. 

[b1soul]

The original Imperium Secundus was a great sub-plot idea, but too many authours got in the mix and it lacked focus.

 

Don't think the Lion would just flip G-man the bird. IMO if the two spoke with each other, the Lion should be able to understand why Guilliman (the sole loyalist Primarch in play...after 9000+ years of loyalist Primarchs all absent) assumed supreme command the way he did. G-man didn't just take power...to some extent, it was also thrust upon him by certain forces within the Imperium. Would the Lion have done it the exact same way? No. But I highly doubt the Lion wouldn't have assumed some key leadership role within the Imperium if he had been the one to return first.

 

Tension between G-man and the Lion could possibly arise from

G-man's more flexible approach to religion

any attempts by G-man to railroad the Lion's actions

any obsession with the Fallen the Lion harbours and how that affects his decision-making

 

There inevitably will be some points of tension between Lord Regent and Lord Protector (how I think the two Primarchs will split their roles), and Dante will fall back to a more under-regent of Nihilus role. So you'd get Guilliman as Regent of Imperium Sanctus in name (Dante would answer to him so he still has tremendous authority over both halves of the Imperium), Dante as (under-)Regent of Imperium Nihilus, and the Lion as Lord Protector of all the Imperium.

 

Dante will probably be glad to have a Son of the Emperor take overall military command in Nihilus. G-man could transfer his military power in Sanctus to the Lion laterally, as one equal to another. He could even throw in some humility to disarm the Lion: "Well, Brother, let me continue to count beans while you unleash destruction upon our foes."

 

It will be interesting to see which Primarch, in the event of brotherly tension, Dante gravitates to more.

 

 

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

I disagree. I don’t want him to flip Guilliman off in attitude or anything. 
But I would hope that Guilliman just lets him do it (name him warmaster or something) because he would hopefully know the players and how to use them in their greatest strength.

 

Like knowing you could tell your guy to listen to your direct order and micromanage him, but also knowing it would be counter productive so you instead say, “alright, see that hill over there? Just take who you want and take that hill.”

 

The reason I would prefer that is because primarchs are supposed to be geniuses, and surely at this point Guilliman knows a free Lion would do more for him than a micromanaged one forced into a role where they feel like they are being constrained. 
 

It also saves face for Guilliman. “I told him to do x. He instead did y” means Guilliman was directly undermined. He knows that wouldn’t be good for him politically. If he instead doesn’t give restrained x’s, he isn’t undercut and can say at the worst that he will fix something the Lion overdid while not needing to really do anything. It’s a win win.

Imperial backlash response:

”I NEVER TOLD HIM TO DO THAT!” Vs “Ah yes. He had reason to destroy those planets, good preacher. As war marshal he saw it needed to be done.”

 

While privately he can still detest it. It also forces him to support the Lion in things he might have otherwise publicly rebuked him for. 

 

They are geniuses yes but they are flawed beings. I dont think any reading of the HH can give any other impression but that they are all flawed in some manner. Other than the Angel, of course. ;)

 

I take a particularly hard line view on how I want the many factions to (dys)function. I want the Imperium to being at odds with itself, just as much as it is with everyone else.

 

I wont mind if they fluff it out in public to keep up appearances and further the lie that is the Imperium (love the trailer for 10th), but one on one, I hope there is conflict and disagreement.

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

I wont mind if they fluff it out in public to keep up appearances and further the lie that is the Imperium (love the trailer for 10th), but one on one, I hope there is conflict and disagreement.

Yeah, this is what I was meaning how I wanted it.