Overanalyzing the lasgun

[Evil Eye]

Ah, the lasgun. The flashlight, the laser pointer, thousands of other derogatory nicknames, but ultimately a Guardsman's best friend.

 

I've often thought about the specifics of this unsung hero of the Imperium. It's on the weaker end of Imperial weapons, and next to the mighty bolter it's kind of laughable. But to me at least that seems more indicative of how dangerous 40K weapons are, because in modern terms this thing is terrifying!

 

Let's first consider the fact that this thing is apparently cheap enough AND effective enough to be worth adopting by the average regiment over autoguns (which are IIRC basically just regular bullet-firing automatic weapons). Given how even guns that are cheap and nasty by firearm standards like the AK-47 are no laughing matter to be hit by, and presumably the Imperial Guard isn't going to be wanting anything too expensive to produce, we can assume that they must be at least on par with a fairly decent automatic rifle. This also bears out on tabletop, as at S3, against an average human (T3) there's a 50/50 chance if you're not wearing armour that you're going to die, or at least be incapacitated.

 

It also has an advantage over regular weapons in that, if you have a means of charging the power packs, you theoretically have infinite ammunition. No need for supply chains for bullets; if you have electricity? You can keep shooting. Furthermore, as it's shooting, well, light, it's going to have zero recoil, and with (presumably) a much quieter shot it will be much easier to communicate even in a firefight. It's also much more accurate than a regular firearm, and possibly (see below) has a much greater effective range.

 

In terms of the actual killing power, laser damage is a real thing in real life (a laser is basically just directed radiation), and certain madmen/techpriests have already made hand-held lasers of terrifying power...

 

So in the far future, with the intent of actually making something to kill with? OUCH.

 

More specifically, as this video has demonstrated, you can make a handheld device capable of instantly setting things on fire, cooking meat and burning through steel. And if you focus the laser with a lens, whilst you lose a bit of range (at least, with the lens available to Magos Styropyro here) the power is greatly increased, basically turning the thing into a death ray.

 

But wait! It doesn't stop there!

 

The Styro pattern laspistol is of course limited by a hobbyist's resources and the technology of the 21st century, in addition to some common sense. The biggest issue for conversion to a viable weapon being the lens; you could probably make a focusing lens that gives it a viable range, but I'm not sure he has access to one. However, this isn't insurmountable, and is fixable even at his level by two possibilities.

 

The first is converting the device into a pulse laser- rather than a continuous beam, the diode emits a brief and powerful shot (or pulse) of light. This allows for much greater power output without burning out the diode, and can turn even a much smaller, less powerful laser into a nasty piece of work. I'm pretty sure even without the lens, if his build was reconfigured into a pulse laser it would probably be able to kill.

The second is a bit more hypothetical of me, but anyway- replacing the regular laser diodes with UV ones. UV is a MUCH higher frequency than visible light, and is extremely dangerous. I use a basic UV lamp to cure my 3D prints, and having accidentally caught a flash in the eyes it isn't pleasant, like, at all. And that's not a laser, that's just an unfocused light. UV light is used to sterilize things in medical environments, and an equivalently powered UV diode to what is used in the video would be scary.

 

Combine a better lens setup, a pulse laser mechanism and UV? You have possibly one of the most monstrously terrifying handheld weapons ever made.  It's my theory as such that a lasgun would probably use such a setup, possibly with a red "tracer" beam of visible light for targeting purposes.

 

Now, obviously there are reasons we don't have this on the field. For one thing, laser beams of that power are dangerous to be around- if you were using this death ray and didn't have goggles on, you would go blind with a single shot. (As a side note, getting shot in the eye with that thing would be instant death). Also, electronics and lenses are far more fragile than a chunk of steel and springs, so not ideal for squaddies. I'm also not sure even without the lens if it would have a great effective range, as ambient particles in the atmosphere could easily diffuse the beam. And its penetration ability would be pretty low, because you're just shooting light; theoretically a powerful enough laser could be capable of lascannon style armour piercing, but for a handheld weapon you'd be stuck with AP-. Of course, these are all considerations in the modern era, not the 41st millennium, but it's worth noting before you start building your own lasgun.

 

If you did get it to work though? OH BOY. Aside from the aforementioned advantages, this thing would be a terror weapon. It'd basically cook anything it hit, and even if you survived a shot with the thing you'd likely develop some nasty conditions from such a concentrated burst of ultraviolet radiation. Furthermore, it'd likely set anything flammable on fire instantly. And if your foe isn't wearing the same protective eyewear you'd need to be wearing, they're going to go blind from being in visible range of the damn thing. It'd also be great for disabling any kind of visibility on...well, anything really; it'd short out cameras, and you'd want vision slits on vehicles to be absurdly well protected or else that's your tank crew's eyes fried.

 

Now I'm not an expert on physics, and I'm sure there's a lot I've overlooked, but as a TLDR: the most widely mocked weapon in the Imperial arsenal is actually completely terrifying and technically could already be feasible. Sort of.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a date with an electronics guide and eBay!*

 

*This is a joke. I know nothing about electronics, and I'm not stupid enough to try and build something like this because quite aside from anything else, making the Guardsman's Friend IRL is not worth potentially killing/maiming/burning myself and anyone else in the same room as me. Plus it'd be too expensive. But seriously, please don't build a lasgun IRL.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The most powerful lasers currently are mounted on warships, and barely useful at that. The handheld lasers aren’t that powerful yet 

[Lord_Ikka]

One of the main reasons that the lasgun is somewhat of a joke in 40k is because you aren't often fighting other baseline humans- you are pointing it at transhuman super-soldiers, mutated worshippers of the Chaos Gods, and terrifying Xenos like Nids or Orks. A regular autogun is also basically a joke in fighting those foes, you need something like the mini-rocket launched grenade firepower of a bolter or the chained fury of a plasma weapon to feel secure in those circumstances. Something that either makes small holes (autogun) or a near noiseless flicker of burning light (las) doesn't have the sheer impact of a mass-reactive explosive (bolt round) or solid "beam" of microwave energy that melts holes in tanks (melta). Its not a useless gun, especially when used against human-analogue targets or en masse, it just is very clearly not the preferred weapon that you'd pick to fight a charging Bloodthirster.

 

As far as lasers use in current, modern weaponry- right now the limitation is on power and sustainability. If you have to carry around a 20-lb backpack battery and you're not getting effects that exceed current modern ballistic firearms, it isn't worth it. As the tech grows and develops, we are seeing more militaries looking into the use of lasers as combat weapons, its just that right now they haven't been found to be practical as man-portable equipment. The US Airforce does have a couple of testbed missile-defense planes that use a 747 chassis to house a massive laser, and I believe the Navy has also looked into lasers as an anti-missile countermeasure to put on nuclear-powered cruisers/carriers. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

One of the main reasons that the lasgun is somewhat of a joke in 40k is because you aren't often fighting other baseline humans- you are pointing it at transhuman super-soldiers, mutated worshippers of the Chaos Gods, and terrifying Xenos like Nids or Orks. A regular autogun is also basically a joke in fighting those foes, you need something like the mini-rocket launched grenade firepower of a bolter or the chained fury of a plasma weapon to feel secure in those circumstances. Something that either makes small holes (autogun) or a near noiseless flicker of burning light (las) doesn't have the sheer impact of a mass-reactive explosive (bolt round) or solid "beam" of microwave energy that melts holes in tanks (melta). Its not a useless gun, especially when used against human-analogue targets or en masse, it just is very clearly not the preferred weapon that you'd pick to fight a charging Bloodthirster.

 

As far as lasers use in current, modern weaponry- right now the limitation is on power and sustainability. If you have to carry around a 20-lb backpack battery and you're not getting effects that exceed current modern ballistic firearms, it isn't worth it. As the tech grows and develops, we are seeing more militaries looking into the use of lasers as combat weapons, its just that right now they haven't been found to be practical as man-portable equipment. The US Airforce does have a couple of testbed missile-defense planes that use a 747 chassis to house a massive laser, and I believe the Navy has also looked into lasers as an anti-missile countermeasure to put on nuclear-powered cruisers/carriers. 

Nuclear cruisers went away in the 80s iirc.

now they’re just being mounted on conventionally powered ships. Still all one off prototypes so far.

 

still takes several seconds to disable and down small quad copter drones though.

[Lord_Ikka]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Nuclear cruisers went away in the 80s iirc.

now they’re just being mounted on conventionally powered ships. Still all one off prototypes so far.

Looks like the last one, the USS Long Beach, was decommissioned in 95. For some reason I thought we still had a couple of nuc cruisers.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Looks like the last one, the USS Long Beach, was decommissioned in 95. For some reason I thought we still had a couple of nuc cruisers.

There was talk about making the zumwalts nukes a while back, and I think it’s been floated for the DDG(X) program as well.

 

but yeah we are unfortunately a very long way from lasers that could even be compared a multilaser in effectiveness let alone a lasgun operated by a battery  the size of a modern gun’s magazine (even drum mag sized.)

on the other hand there are currently man portable electromagnetic guns (not sure if they count as rail guns or not.)

 

https://thedebrief.org/first-handheld-railgun-matches-22-rifles-power/

Edited March 24, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Iron Lord]

8 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Looks like the last one, the USS Long Beach, was decommissioned in 95. For some reason I thought we still had a couple of nuc cruisers.

The Virginia class came after the Long Beach, and the last of those, the Arkansas, was retired in 1998.

 

Russia still has one Kirov-class  in active service (and one being overhauled).

 

Regarding autoguns as a counterpart to lasguns (being same Str, range, AP, etc) it's worth noting that the Guard autogun is built big. From TV Tropes:

 

The most common autogun is the Agripinaa pattern from a forge world near Cadia; this standard mid-grade weapon is 8.25mm and weighs 6.2 kg. In comparison, an M-16 is 5.56mm and weighs 2.89 kg.

 

So this needs to be taken into account when comparing the lasgun to modern weaponry.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The most powerful lasers currently are mounted on warships, and barely useful at that. The handheld lasers aren’t that powerful yet 

 

I remember being told about that from my buddies brother who's microchip company got moved to Hawaii 4 years before that little helicopter demo, I thought he was full of :cuss:  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Iron Lord said:

The Virginia class came after the Long Beach, and the last of those, the Arkansas, was retired in 1998.

 

Russia still has one Kirov-class  in active service (and one being overhauled).

 

Regarding autoguns as a counterpart to lasguns (being same Str, range, AP, etc) it's worth noting that the Guard autogun is built big. From TV Tropes:

 

The most common autogun is the Agripinaa pattern from a forge world near Cadia; this standard mid-grade weapon is 8.25mm and weighs 6.2 kg. In comparison, an M-16 is 5.56mm and weighs 2.89 kg.

 

So this needs to be taken into account when comparing the lasgun to modern weaponry.

And a FAL is 7.62x51 as is the m14.

many AKs are are 7.62x37

 

and a let’s not forget the BAR sitting at .30-06

1 hour ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

 

I remember being told about that from my buddies brother who's microchip company got moved to Hawaii 4 years before that little helicopter demo, I thought he was full of

Lol nope, the lasers are real, but still many years from being a viable defensive weapon. If WWIII broke out now, the US would likely refit the laser armed ships with either phalanx, RAM, or SEARAM.

[Arkangilos]

On 3/24/2023 at 12:17 AM, Lord_Ikka said:

One of the main reasons that the lasgun is somewhat of a joke in 40k is because you aren't often fighting other baseline humans

I think this is only the case in the table top. In the lore the IG probably fight humans more than anything else, but that isn’t the stuff of legends. 
 

Take for instance the Sabbat Worlds and Macharian Crusade, most of them were against standard human militaries that were augmented by more powerful foes. 
 

But yeah, the rest of what you said is dead on. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Moonreaper666]

It is possible to kill a basic Ork with a single headshot from either an Autogun or Lasgun but most of the time several chest shots have to be done. Kage stated in the recent Last Chancer novel that it usually takes between three to five Lasgun shots to deal real damage to an Ork

 

Autoguns are superior to modern rifles. They are cheaper to make and have higher firing rates

 

Lasguns do deal physical damage as they can damage concrete

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Moonreaper666 said:

It is possible to kill a basic Ork with a single headshot from either an Autogun or Lasgun but most of the time several chest shots have to be done. Kage stated in the recent Last Chancer novel that it usually takes between three to five Lasgun shots to deal real damage to an Ork

 

Autoguns are superior to modern rifles. They are cheaper to make and have higher firing rates

 

Lasguns do deal physical damage as they can damage concrete

Im just curious what makes autorifles ‘superior’ to modern combat rifles…

[Emperor Ming]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Im just curious what makes autorifles ‘superior’ to modern combat rifles…

One would hope, tens of thousands of years of innovation, even with regression would have some impact

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

35 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

One would hope, tens of thousands of years of innovation, even with regression would have some impact

The attributes that make a rifle superior to another can’t even be agreed upon by people who know about guns, so I’d like to hear his explanation about that claim lol.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 minutes ago, EnsignJoker said:

Cutting lasers are a thing, but not really similar to a 40k Lasgun. I think the closest approximation might be an X-ray, in that the beam zaps you and feasibly burns a hole into/through you instantaneously. That’s not how X-rays work either thankfully, but it seems closer than anything we have in real life for practical purposes. 
 

Also, if I recall correctly, isn’t the main damage from a las weapon done because of surrounding trauma caused by the beam, and not the “hole” the beam makes itself? I.e, you get hit with a las weapon and the wound instantly cauterizes, preventing blood loss, but the trauma and shock to the surrounding organs is what kills you? That’s probably why a larger than human sized enemy isn’t as affected by it. Different mass and all. 

I’d say the naval lasers are definitely more like 40k las weapons than an X-ray is

[Sothalor]

To throw an additional wrench into the discussion as to the nature of las weapons, here's what the Armoury of the Age of Darkness insert of White Dwarf 482 had to say:

 

Quote

Imperial 'las' weapons are not true laser weapons, but rather sophisticated particle-beam weapons that emit a coherent 'packet' of energy that can melt through armour and sear flesh on impact. The category of weapon encapsulates perhaps the most disparate selection of weapons in the galaxy, ranging from crystalline cell-powered pistols to the prodigiously large primary armaments of void-ships. Within this broad bandwidth lie lasguns and lascannon, frequently relied upon by numerous forces thanks to their rechargeable power packs or inbuilt generator systems that lessen the burden on an army's logistical train.

 

[MegaVolt87]

Lasgun in Darktide is legit, it's good against human sized foes. I think as usual, particular people have let the memes get in the way again of the actual lore. 

[Closet Skeleton]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:42 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Autoguns are superior to modern rifles. They are cheaper to make and have higher firing rates

 

Higher rate of fire doesn't make a personal weapon better, we could easily make guns with rediculous rates of fire but no-one would every be able to carry enough bulllets to keep it in action for more than a minute.

 

Its nonsense to talk about the economics of completely different civilisations. In the real would a workshop built knock-off AK is cheaper than a factory built M16 but its still more economical for the US army to go to a factory and a 3rd world guerilla to go to a workshop,

 

The Neophyte or Chaos Cultist autogun looks like a bulky un-ergonomic piece of :cuss: and is probably worse to use than a real world modern weapon.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Closet Skeleton

[MegaVolt87]

The auto gun would be superior to what we have now, due to the difference in 40k materials, propellants, metals, chemicals etc. That's where the difference would be. 

[Arkangilos]

On 4/2/2023 at 7:32 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

On 4/2/2023 at 5:42 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Im just curious what makes autorifles ‘superior’ to modern combat rifles…

I’ve always understood autorifles to be the equivalent of today’s rifles, lol

[Arkangilos]

2 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

The auto gun would be superior to what we have now, due to the difference in 40k materials, propellants, metals, chemicals etc. That's where the difference would be. 

I don’t think those would make noticeable differences for performance when it comes to damage.

[Moonreaper666]

On 4/5/2023 at 8:54 PM, Arkangilos said:

I don’t think those would make noticeable differences for performance when it comes to damage.

 

Reliability. More durable guns can fire more bullets and handle more dirt before having problems

 

War is bloody, dirty, long and very exhaustive on the participants and their tools

[Arkangilos]

That’s fair but I’m not sure how much more reliability can improve. 

[Timberley]

On 4/6/2023 at 4:51 AM, Arkangilos said:

I’ve always understood autorifles to be the equivalent of today’s rifles, lol

Way back in time, during the RT-era (IIRC), an auto-weapon was a kinetic weapon that fired caseless ammunition (akin to the HK G11 and similar - probably inspired by ye olde M41A Pulse Rifle), whereas a stub weapon used cased ammunition, similar to our modern weapons.  I seem to recall it being a whole thing in the original Necromunda (stoppage rolls, IIRC).  It seemed like it was a bridge between stub weapons and the high-tech bolter variants, an alternative to a las-weapon.  I recall that an autogun was a PDF thing, whilst the lasgun was Imperial Guard, due in part to the logistics of it all, or ease of maintenance (I forget which).

 

Somewhere over the period since then, stubbers and auto-weapons seem to have been conflated, and lasguns turned into a weapon that is as lethal as the plot allows.  This conflation has led to some strange things, like Astartes using pintle-mounted heavy stubbers on their vehicles, whereas in the past it would've been either a Storm Bolter or a Heavy Bolter.

 

The lasgun itself, I always understood to be the equivalent of a Star Wars blaster, with shots causing thermal shock on impact (secondary trauma coming from the sudden molecular boiling/cauterising at the impact site), as opposed to the kinetic shock of autoguns.