The Lion - Son of the Forest by Mike Brooks

[bobbybrewster]

I actually really liked this. The lion we got had to work hard not to be his usual self. Which after losing his father his brothers and first companion and the breaking of Calaban he had alot of failings to think about. Also his refusal to be an emperor was a nice reflection of his stance in unremembered Empire. I saw this novel as very much setting a tone that can be fleshed out in future works. 

[BitsHammer]

I think there are two things that may have contributed the Lion's change in personality compared to Dreadwing:

Spoiler

First is the fake Caliban he woke up in, with that babbling brook that may have had some sort of restorative effect for his mind. It's definitely warp adjacent space so the idea that a magic stream could have helped heal his emotional wounds isn't too outlandish.

 

The second, and the one I feel is more likely is that it has to do with Lion's memories being gone until he met Zabriel, and even then it's incomplete. He's off balance mentally and emotionally, especially after being called a traitor and hearing an honest account from one of his sons that he screwed up.

 

A lot of the book is the Lion struggling with the idea that he made poor choices that hurt his brothers, his father and his sons. 

 

There is the anger and pride of the old Lion but he's a Primarch out of time being led by something to his lost sons and it feels like he is leaning on them as his only point of familiarity as a means of coping.

 

So less Guilliman's super depression and more an emotional crutch as he has to come to terms with a new galaxy, a new Imperium and even the prospect that his decisiveness was a flaw, not a strength.

That said it feels more like Brooks was definitely told to keep it to one book to make the deadline for the Lion's mini release. This could have been a full trilogy that went deeper and skipped less time to let us get to see inside the Lion's head more.

 

Great story, shame it has executive meddling written all over it. Hopefully he continues the Lion's story and we get more behind his change (or we can blame the Watchers, that can always work), and a whole book on how the chapter handles things would be great.

[Lord_Ikka]

On 5/4/2023 at 12:57 PM, bobbybrewster said:

I actually really liked this. The lion we got had to work hard not to be his usual self. Which after losing his father his brothers and first companion and the breaking of Calaban he had alot of failings to think about. Also his refusal to be an emperor was a nice reflection of his stance in unremembered Empire. I saw this novel as very much setting a tone that can be fleshed out in future works. 

Agreed. The book really made the Lion come to terms with what he was and what he needed to be going in the future. Bringing back his Fallen sons, wanting to be not alone among the Primarchs, viewing humans as something to be protected rather than something to be used- these are all real changes that he had to consciously make. 

Seeing the various "loyal" Fallen was interesting as well, going to be a really fun time when Dante and the BA meet up with the modern DA having the Lion and his retinue of Risen in tow. 

[Moonreaper666]

52 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Agreed. The book really made the Lion come to terms with what he was and what he needed to be going in the future. Bringing back his Fallen sons, wanting to be not alone among the Primarchs, viewing humans as something to be protected rather than something to be used- these are all real changes that he had to consciously make. 

Seeing the various "loyal" Fallen was interesting as well, going to be a really fun time when Dante and the BA meet up with the modern DA having the Lion and his retinue of Risen in tow. 

 

More interested in Lion learning about Vortigern and Daemon Prince Marbas

 

So many Fallen have joined Chaos. That would definitely mindscrew him, doubly so if they are taking orders from Kairos

[SkimaskMohawk]

11 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

More interested in Lion learning about Vortigern and Daemon Prince Marbas

 

So many Fallen have joined Chaos. That would definitely mindscrew him, doubly so if they are taking orders from Kairos

He literally fights a fully corrupted Fallen sorcerer (a previous knight-captain), who then turns into a daemon prince and eats the souls from the good fallen.

 

What makes those two more shocking other than the familiarity you have with their names?

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Kelborn
Added spoilers

[Kelborn]

I took the liberty to add spoilers.

 

And thanks for that. Haven't finished it yet...

[SkimaskMohawk]

36 minutes ago, Kelborn said:

I took the liberty to add spoilers.

 

And thanks for that. Haven't finished it yet...

 

Sorry about that, but if it makes you feel better, it's kinda irrelevant. 

[Moonreaper666]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

He literally fights a fully corrupted Fallen sorcerer (a previous knight-captain), who then turns into a daemon prince and eats the souls from the good fallen.

 

 

 

What makes those two more shocking other than the familiarity you have with their names?

 

 

 

 

Votigern is the highest ranking Fallen within the Black Legion

 

Daemon Prince Marbas is the only known DP Fallen

 

When the Lion knows about them and what they've done he won't take it well

 

The Lion's return would result in more Unforgiven vs Chaos Fallen fights, more Astartes killing each other

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Votigern is the highest ranking Fallen within the Black Legion

 

So what, is that somehow worse than his mentor/father figure falling to chaos? Because that's the bar that he has to beat. His new rank is irrelevant; what matters is how close he was to the lion preheresy and how degenerative has he become. 

 

2 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Daemon Prince Marbas is the only known DP Fallen

 

See above, though he does have the benefit of being an actual daemon compared to a...guy

 

And as I said earlier:

Spoiler

Both have to compare against Seraphax. He was a captain, and he's now a sorcerer who leads a pretty strong* warband. Half his face is always on fire, and he casts a ton of spells on the lion, and harvests a bunch of souls in front of the lion (and tries to take his too). He then turns into a daemon prince in front of his eyes.

 

*The fleet he sends to attack the lions world has 184 ships, and it wasn't framed as him going all in.

 

2 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

When the Lion knows about them and what they've done he won't take it well.

 

He'll probably be more concerned that Luther was still alive and chained in the rock forever, and that marbas then stole him away over "they're evil and successful". Or that cyphers been screwing around and helped guilliman over "guy whos literally just a name in terms of our knowledge is part of abaddons council". 

[Moonreaper666]

 

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

So what, is that somehow worse than his mentor/father figure falling to chaos? Because that's the bar that he has to beat. His new rank is irrelevant; what matters is how close he was to the lion preheresy and how degenerative has he become. 

 

 

See above, though he does have the benefit of being an actual daemon compared to a...guy

 

And as I said earlier:

  Reveal hidden contents

Both have to compare against Seraphax. He was a captain, and he's now a sorcerer who leads a pretty strong* warband. Half his face is always on fire, and he casts a ton of spells on the lion, and harvests a bunch of souls in front of the lion (and tries to take his too). He then turns into a daemon prince in front of his eyes.

 

*The fleet he sends to attack the lions world has 184 ships, and it wasn't framed as him going all in.

 

 

He'll probably be more concerned that Luther was still alive and chained in the rock forever, and that marbas then stole him away over "they're evil and successful". Or that cyphers been screwing around and helped guilliman over "guy whos literally just a name in terms of our knowledge is part of abaddons council". 

 

Luther has left. His cell was left open

[SkimaskMohawk]

What does that even mean? 

[Sothalor]

What does any of this have to do with the novel?

[BitsHammer]

So one of the characters (does it count as a spoiler when the book opens with a list of characters?) showed up in Gathering Storm:

Spoiler

Credit to Reddit for spotting that.

[lansalt]

12 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

So one of the characters (does it count as a spoiler when the book opens with a list of characters?) showed up in Gathering Storm:

  Reveal hidden contents

Credit to Reddit for spotting that.

About this....

Spoiler

If this is supposed to be canonically the same character and not just a cute reference or a retcon, there are a few questions about him:

• The Red Whisper was part of Cypher's followers during Rise of the Primarch, so he must have know about Guilliman coming back, but he said nothing to the Lion or the others.
• His plasma gun in SoF is a explicitly different 30k pattern from the 40k one in that illustration. Why the change?
• He never takes off his helmet and his Fallen buddies have never seen his face, or even recognize his name from the Heresy era. He seems to be the only DA that the Lion doesn't recognize from the HH era.
• He's the first of his group to quickly follow the Lion without question upon learning of his return.

This guy is very, very suspicious, and I'd say he must be an Alpha Legion operative.

 

 

[BitsHammer]

45 minutes ago, lansalt said:

About this....

  Hide contents

If this is supposed to be canonically the same character and not just a cute reference or a retcon, there are a few questions about him:

• The Red Whisper was part of Cypher's followers during Rise of the Primarch, so he must have know about Guilliman coming back, but he said nothing to the Lion or the others.
• His plasma gun in SoF is a explicitly different 30k pattern from the 40k one in that illustration. Why the change?
• He never takes off his helmet and his Fallen buddies have never seen his face, or even recognize his name from the Heresy era. He seems to be the only DA that the Lion doesn't recognize from the HH era.
• He's the first of his group to quickly follow the Lion without question upon learning of his return.

This guy is very, very suspicious, and I'd say he must be an Alpha Legion operative.

 

 

I agree there are many questions around him.

 

Speaking of characters who popped up in past GW publications:

Spoiler

Baelor was mentioned back in the 6th Ed Dark Angels Codex.  The DA's discovered the STC for the Nephilim Jetfighter while chasing him.

 

[Tolmeus]

As for the critic to the novel, here are some insights by Mike Brooks himself from the Afterword of the Limited Edition.
They may or may not give you more insights or understanding to the creation of the novel:
 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Tolmeus

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, Tolmeus said:

As for the critic to the novel, here are some insights by Mike Brooks himself from the Afterword of the Limited Edition.
They may or may not give you more insights or understanding to the creation of the novel:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

That really confirms several things people were assuming and considering the tight constraints I think he nailed it. 

 

Granted I liked the story in general but it makes it more impressive when you see that he had hard limits on what he could do.

[DarkChaplain]

Regarding the Lion not recognizing someone:

 

It's not really that surprising, considering the tens of thousands of recruits on Caliban. He'd be familiar with the prominent ones, and the ones he sent back there with Luther, but not necessarily knows all the new folks who cropped up in the decades of abandonment.

 

Also, have we ever had a confirmation of Corswain's death, for instance? I don't think so. He fought Lord Cypher on Caliban, but what then? Iirc, in the Luther novel, he was missing. Likewise, we don't know what happened to Holguin (though I would still not be surprised if he turned out to be either Cypher or a second Cypher running around the galaxy with the broken sword he was given in Angels of Caliban).

We know that Farith Redloss survived the destruction of Caliban and became Grand Master... but we're also told he was slain by the Fallen not too long after. I'm not saying it's likely at all, but technically, they could turn this into a switcheroo, with Farith Redloss going undercover in secret. Not saying I like the idea, but even that is possible from a narrative standpoint with how little we know about his supposed death.

 

There's only two real options as to the Red Whisper's refusal to show his face: Either it's somehow disfigured, most likely by chaotic mutation, which would brand him abomination, or he's protecting his identity and using the voice modulators in his gear to pretend he's an enigma, when otherwise he might be recognized. I'd think the latter is far more interesting. I just hope they make it count, when they eventually reveal it.

[lansalt]

28 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

Spoiler

if he turned out to be either Cypher or a second Cypher running around the galaxy

 

Speaking of that...

Spoiler

I suspect the other protagonist of the Lion novel,  Zabriel (former destroyer marine with his dual pistols and a history of hanging out with both loyalists and traitors without becoming corrupt himself) may become another candidate or red herring for Cypher's secret identity with just a bit of time travel shenanigans (that have already happened before in the DA saga).

 

 

[Moonreaper666]

15 hours ago, lansalt said:

Speaking of that...

  Hide contents

I suspect the other protagonist of the Lion novel,  Zabriel (former destroyer marine with his dual pistols and a history of hanging out with both loyalists and traitors without becoming corrupt himself) may become another candidate or red herring for Cypher's secret identity with just a bit of time travel shenanigans (that have already happened before in the DA saga).

 

 

 

What if GW/BL pulls a Josh Reynolds and...

 

Spoiler

Have Cypher be MULTIPLE people at the same time?

 

Some 'Cyphers' are pro-Chaos agents which have claimed multiple worlds for Chaos

 

[crimsondave]

I loved the book.  It wasn’t perfect nor was it the direction I would have chosen but I thought the characters developed very well.  

I completely disagree with the idea that the Lion’s change in personality was unrealistic.  I don’t think a primarch would lack the ability to change perspective based in their experience.  Any normal human can do that.  The way he treated his legion in 30k caused it to collapse and fall apart.  He saw the role he played in causing it and fights against his natural instincts to try to avoid repeating those mistakes throughout the book.

 

Don’t get me wrong.  There’s plenty of room for criticism.  It did  seem a bit rushed and it felt like there were a ton of constraints placed on the author.  That said, the knashing of teeth earlier in the thread was over the top (especially the rants from people who haven’t even read the book!) Getting mad a BL book doesn’t conform to one’s head cannon is pretty silly and that’s most of what that looked like to me.

 

I think the main reason I really liked the book was it moves the story along.  Not necessarily in the direction I would have chosen but a new and interesting direction none the less.

[Orange Knight]

I have just finished this. It took me longer than expected, but I did get through the whole story.

 

 

Spoiler

-The Warp Shenanigans involving travelling via Caliban were fine. It's an incredibly convenient plot device that can be used going forward, but it's not the most egregious thing in the setting by a long shot.

 

-The Lion had a very abrupt personality change, and it doesn't feel like the same character as what has been depicted before in certain situations. This isn't as outlandish as one might consider - his temper and aggression may have cooled with age.

 

-The villains plot was pretty cool.

 

- I really enjoyed the ending. When the Lion has to battle the warp apparitions of each Primarch, the test he must pass before the Emperor grants him his Shield, and the epilogue where he meets Dante who gets him up to speed.

 

-The book as a whole, I felt, wasn't as well written as what Wraight or Haley have been producing in recent years. I am eternally grateful to the author for putting the Fallen silliness to bed, at least.

 

[DarkChaplain]

I think it's also important to remember that the Lion's rage was at peak levels by the time he hit Caliban. A 10k year nap will let that flame burn out, and we don't yet know how things on Caliban / vs Luther went from his perspective.

 

You can clearly see his temper rising the closer it got to the Siege of Terra, though, with his grief feeding rage in the palace, leading to him striking Russ down before he leaves. Even then he was trying to get Russ to rise and duel him, to let off steam and have something to lash out against that wasn't himself - just that Russ didn't play along with that drive.

 

While before, his anger had clear outlets, like Curze - though even with Thramas and Curze, you could easily see that anger progressing til things go crazy in Ultramar by Angels of Caliban - and after Ruinstorm it was traitor homeworlds. But especially with those, he used them as a vent while he himself felt powerless to make an actual difference at Terra and feared the worst due to the Astronomican going out. He was lashing out at what he could - and I'd think that Caliban is when that lashing out finally turned against himself and his own Legion, which he probably ended up realizing in some form by way of Luther.

 

The Lion was erratic with his temper, that's for sure. But the boiling rage he was fostering throughout the Heresy was never going to be sustainable. I'd have been extremely disappointed if he's come back just as angry, not having learned anything. Though I'm still expecting certain conflicts to make him flare up - but the Lion's self-destructive tendencies? They should not be front and center of the character at this point.

[Moonreaper666]

Based on his statements

 

Spoiler

Old Lion would last as long against Daemon Fulgrim as Guilliman did

 

That's assuming Fulgrim doesn't use Sorcery to quickly and painfully kill the Lion

 

[Gederas]

So I'm not sure if this should be in here, or a new thread, but White Dwarf 488 has a section about the Lion coming back, what he and the Risen are doing and people's reactions to it. Some of it is actually downright hilarious:

 

 

1. Lion saves a Feudal World from a... Something? Daemon Prince or gigantic warpspawn. Also refers to him as a "warrior of the Holy Prime Ark"
2. Saves an Imperial World from a Chaos warlord, people of said planet think the Lion was actually the Emperor made manifest.
3. Inquisitorial Agent reporting on seeing Lion doing his thing on a world.
4. Inquisition Agent reporting on the Lion was found by the Blood Angels.
5. (this one is amusing) Ragnar Blackmane messaging Ulrik the Slayer about the reports of Lion being back.
6. The Dark Angels Inner Circle wanting to keep it under wraps until confirmation
7. A Blood Angel messaging another one, complaining about the situation.
8. THE LION STEALING A FALLEN IN A CELL FROM AN INTERROGATOR-CHAPLAIN
9. A Chaos Marine messaging their superior about the Lion rampaging through their lines.
10. An Eldar Farseer being ominous as always

 

My favorite is definitely the eighth entry in it, simply because of how utterly confused, bewildered and full of doubt it leaves the subject.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Gederas