The Lion - Son of the Forest by Mike Brooks

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

As shown by....what?

 

Call it the failure of the series, but we've literally only seen the lion fight curze. Yes, he grew up on Caliban in the forests with the beasts; no, we don't know how many of those he killed or how theyre more impressive than the magma dragons on nocturne, the thing ferrus killed on medusa, the Greek myth stuff pert killed on Olympia, the stuff on fenris, the mutants on baal, or really any of the crazy xenos stuff fought in the crusade. 

 

It's similar to claims that he was a contestant for warmaster. He's hailed as this strategist, but we never see it; he basically only makes the wrong decision. The biggest campaign we see him in is thramas, and he got stalemated by a legion known for its dysfunction and unreliable primarch. It's all just in-universe gossip at this point.  

 

 

Lol maybe someone should have told sang he was only fighting a beast, not like angron was shown to have any higher reasoning in echoes.

We know about the Rangdan Xenocides, but I would say his Primarch novel and the Khrave are a good example too. Multiple Legions and the Emperor came together to break an Ork empire, meanwhile the Lion xenocides another race off the galaxy.

 

And we know a bit about the creatures of Caliban, as well as a description of the creature he killed before Luther found him naked and feral on Caliban (somewhere he was for ten years before that). We also know from Descent of Angels on how much of a monster a Caliban Lion is and he killed one of those on his own long before he got Imperium grade Primarch kit.

 

And to quote First Legion, again, where the Lion is answered how he wants to be remembered by a member of the Order back on Caliban:

Quote

"That I was ever, and only, thus," he says, tasting the raw, frigid air of another Caliban dawn. "The hunter. The slayer of beasts."

 

The Lion is a hunter, to try and argue that he is not is denying who the Lion is in order to make arguments I can't even pretend make sense.

 

Also we have seen the Lion as a tactician. In his Primarch novel, and again leading a fleet of outclassed ships in Son of the Forest. Heck in his Primarch novel he's dealing with a xenos race that can control people and read their minds and still manages to trick them while dealing with a crew that is more than likely compromised at the time.

 

I admit I haven't read everything involving the Lion, but it feels like people are ignoring things to draw a conclusion of him as only being a hothead who makes poor choices and struggles at hide and seek.

Edited April 27, 2023 by BitsHammer

[RikuEru]

7 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

No, I didnt.

 

However when people just want to take the piss out of what makes the setting what it is, because others voice their particular 'understanding' of what the setting is in a manner that is not in any way realistic or respectful to the tone or lore of the setting, this is what happens.

 

40K is grimdark. They practically are the trope maker. To try and trivialize or mock it, just speaks to a lack of understanding on what that trope actually is.

 

Get a grip, man. 

You'd be happily mocking any Loyalist/Primaris "fanboy" if they turned up into ANY halfway-related discussion and produced similiar fiction of how a regular Chapter should kill BILLIONS of Traitors and TRILLIONS of Xenos with ease.

...also remember the Roots of said "Grimdark" universe and how mockery and persiflage of real life history is an intrinsic part of it.

 

...

To get back on topic - The book itself:

 

Mike Brooks might not be among the top contenders in the BL stable, but he did a decent job of it.

...and I bet a good Editor COULD have helped him to improve the "character voices".

 

Most importantly tho, he probably was under time constraints AND he had a very narrow window of things he was able to include in the book.

 

The Limited Edition Afterword contains no special twists or news but confirms a few things. Brooks was told he had to write the Lion "between sourcebooks" and that he was supposed to have him pick up some Fallen. Brooks explains that his major points were the Lions character development, setting up the Fallen and the references to King Arthur. That’s also where he got his idea of the Emperor as the bleeding king.

 

To Quote:

 

"This, then, became the main thrust of Son of the Forest: The Lion has to work out who he is outside of the context of being his father's son, and in doing so he Gets The Band Back Together because while he doesn't know for sure if he trusts them, at least they're something familiar in this strange future".

 

Also Brooks definitely did his homework on the Lion. He also luckily left the Watchers as mysterious as they should be!

He -tried- to make the Caliban-Forestwalking just as mysterious, but that fell a bit flat. Maybe fleshing those scenes out a bit more, to make the Lion and/or the reader second guess if it was just an old Calibanite Arsenal he found the sword in, if it was the Watchers doing or even the Emperor's/Bleeding King's helping hand - WITHOUT giving a definitive answer - could have gone a long way.

 

Also, in fairness, this should be compared to INDOMITUS and other books which are more closely related to the tabletop releases, instead of the Siege of Terra or the various book (trilogies/series) where the authors have more freedom.

[BitsHammer]

I didn't have the LE hard copy with author's notes but that confirms a suspicion I had about how on rails he was for it, and calling it the Lion's Indomitus is definitely a good comparison.

[aa.logan]

I stayed out of this thread as I usually do to avoid spoilers, but seeing it grow I was rather excited- 9(!) pages of discussion and the book has been available for little over a week! Wow! People must have been as hyped about the return of a Primarch actually being covered in a novel rather than sourcebook and have read it even faster than I did. 
 

Oh. It’s 9 pages largely of people arguing about the sourcebook and saying how terrible Son of the Forest is based on a few sentences summarising the plot rather than actually reading it. And then there’s the folk who can’t use spoiler tags. Ah well. It’s early in the morning and I’m probably disproportionately grumpy.

 

I liked it. It’s not perfect, but there’s an awful lot going for it. I opted for the audiobook and Timothy Watson, on the strength of the two BL audios I’ve head from him (and his villainy in The Archers) has propelled himself to the position of my favourite narrator. Not sure if it was his excellent work of Brooks’ writing but the characters did feel suitably distinct from each other. In fact, the relationships between some of the marine characters are perhaps the best portrayal I’ve read since the tragic Thousand Sons in Mark of Faith- they vary and are nuanced and a believable as any interaction between millennia-old post-human super soldiers can be.

 

Brooks also has a great eye for detail, as others mention the void battles are well-observed and the plot makes as much logical sense as one can expect given the constraints it was presumably written under. He manages to summarise the role of the First Legion during the crusade and the Heresy without subjecting the reader to heavy-handed exposition, concisely summarising their actions and character. I think the supposed contrivance of him acquiring his armaments and indeed

his retinue of The Fallen/Risen

is intentional- the fact the he happens to have returned from stasis at all is wildly convenient; all of these events have seemingly been guided by *something* so why shouldn’t everything necessary for his return to action be conveniently located- he could equally well have returned on a barren uninhabited moon way beyond  contact or in a Tyranid digestion pool; both of these scaranios would lead to a short book and one that wouldn’t tie in with a model release.

 

Also, I like the fact that the Khornate terminator’s chainfist had eyes. It made me think of this-

 

 

[System Sound]

55 minutes ago, aa.logan said:

Oh. It’s 9 pages largely of people arguing about the sourcebook and saying how terrible Son of the Forest is based on a few sentences summarising the plot rather than actually reading it. And then there’s the folk who can’t use spoiler tags. Ah well. It’s early in the morning and I’m probably disproportionately grumpy.

 

 

This happens pretty much with any BL novel these days, honestly. Be it this forum or r/40klore. Someone reads the bad cliff notes and gets immediately pissed about something. And then come the other "wanderers". One spouting about CHAOS! killing BILLIONS! and another endlessly complains about anything that doesn't comply with the "old lore"...

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

We know about the Rangdan Xenocides, but I would say his Primarch novel and the Khrave are a good example too. Multiple Legions and the Emperor came together to break an Ork empire, meanwhile the Lion xenocides another race off the galaxy.

 

And we know a bit about the creatures of Caliban, as well as a description of the creature he killed before Luther found him naked and feral on Caliban (somewhere he was for ten years before that). We also know from Descent of Angels on how much of a monster a Caliban Lion is and he killed one of those on his own long before he got Imperium grade Primarch kit.

 

And to quote First Legion, again, where the Lion is answered how he wants to be remembered by a member of the Order back on Caliban:

 

The Lion is a hunter, to try and argue that he is not is denying who the Lion is in order to make arguments I can't even pretend make sense.

 

Also we have seen the Lion as a tactician. In his Primarch novel, and again leading a fleet of outclassed ships in Son of the Forest. Heck in his Primarch novel he's dealing with a xenos race that can control people and read their minds and still manages to trick them while dealing with a crew that is more than likely compromised at the time.

 

I admit I haven't read everything involving the Lion, but it feels like people are ignoring things to draw a conclusion of him as only being a hothead who makes poor choices and struggles at hide and seek.

 

And how are the beasts more impressive than the monsters all those other primarchs fought? I'm not saying he doesn't consider himself to be a hunter; I'm saying that his self classification isn't actually distinctive in any way when you compare things.

 

I'll admit to not reading his primarch book, but unless it's able to recontextualize his actions, then on the balance he's one of many primarchs who have fought monstrous things, he's basically always made the wrong decision, while always having an inflated opinion of himself.

[Fedor]

The beasts on Caliban were mostly mindless spawn and mutated animals. Some of them were no doubt big and formidable, unble to be taken down until the knightly crusade., but by and large they were a threat scaled to the scattered feudal settlements of Caliban ( or a feral child primarch). Bolt pistols and swords...normal men on horseback. The forests weren't full of things comparable to greater daemons.

 

Nobody wants daemon primarchs to be unbeatable, but i don't understand the amount of justification for collectively turning them into disposable, repeatedly bested foes. I for one just want better, more interesting confrontations than constantly going to the same 1 vs 1 duel...which almost every single time results in the writers portraying them as more directly formidable than their normal counterparts, yet losing or being foiled. It's just gettnig silly and we're at the point the writers have even used literal deus ex machina.

 

the Angron vs Lion fight is just a straw that broke the camels back moment for me.

 

 

 

[BitsHammer]

4 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

And how are the beasts more impressive than the monsters all those other primarchs fought? I'm not saying he doesn't consider himself to be a hunter; I'm saying that his self classification isn't actually distinctive in any way when you compare things.

 

I'll admit to not reading his primarch book, but unless it's able to recontextualize his actions, then on the balance he's one of many primarchs who have fought monstrous things, he's basically always made the wrong decision, while always having an inflated opinion of himself.

The First Legion was responsible for exterminating threats that the other Legions couldn't handle. And the Khrave were highly intelligent so while being monstrous Xenos they were not mindless things.

2 hours ago, Fedor said:

The beasts on Caliban were mostly mindless spawn and mutated animals. Some of them were no doubt big and formidable, unble to be taken down until the knightly crusade., but by and large they were a threat scaled to the scattered feudal settlements of Caliban ( or a feral child primarch). Bolt pistols and swords...normal men on horseback. The forests weren't full of things comparable to greater daemons.

 

Nobody wants daemon primarchs to be unbeatable, but i don't understand the amount of justification for collectively turning them into disposable, repeatedly bested foes. I for one just want better, more interesting confrontations than constantly going to the same 1 vs 1 duel...which almost every single time results in the writers portraying them as more directly formidable than their normal counterparts, yet losing or being foiled. It's just gettnig silly and we're at the point the writers have even used literal deus ex machina.

 

the Angron vs Lion fight is just a straw that broke the camels back moment for me.

 

 

 

Might want to read Descent of Angels where it's pointed out that the great beasts have a sort of malicious intelligence, even if they aren't as intelligent as humans, and take joy out of causing harm and suffering to boot.

[SkimaskMohawk]

34 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

The First Legion was responsible for exterminating threats that the other Legions couldn't handle.

 

According....to them.

 

35 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

And the Khrave were highly intelligent so while being monstrous Xenos they were not mindless things.

 

As opposed to all the xenos races and dark night horrors that other legions dealt with? This is all still us just being told that they're impressive and better, without ever being shown. It's like the wolves with the executioners.

 

40 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Might want to read Descent of Angels where it's pointed out that the great beasts have a sort of malicious intelligence, even if they aren't as intelligent as humans, and take joy out of causing harm and suffering to boot.

 

I have. I fail to see how the great beasts are any more noteworthy than all the other stuff primarchs dealt with over the crusade; they're warp-influenced predators. What makes them this incomparable influence.

[Fedor]

2 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Might want to read Descent of Angels where it's pointed out that the great beasts have a sort of malicious intelligence, even if they aren't as intelligent as humans, and take joy out of causing harm and suffering to boot.

 

I have read DoA, albeit over a decade ago now. I forgot that line, but i do distinctly remember it portraying the deadliest beast on Caliban as basically an oversized Chaosified lion; which was capable of being defeated by a single inexperienced psyker (zahariel). tbh that book made Caliban seem closer to a traditional heroic fantasy spooky enchanted forest realm, rather than a Chaos-tainted deathworld. Completely dropped the ball there, though i did like some other aspects of it.

 

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

According....to them.

 

Sadly, Crusade did basically say (albeit from a second-hand source) that the Dark Angels were the secret uber-exterminators of all the deadliest foes during the GC; the ones too existentially terrifying or powerful to even let others know exist, lest their minds break. It's part of the extremely ham-handed way it goes about the concept of them being the "template" legion, and having been given a DaoT cache by the Emperor.  I guess this was the Alpha Legion themed part... if Alpha Legion background had been written by a 10 year old creating background for his first army.

 

Of course, that wasn't enough: they are also the sanction for the mechanicum with that DaoT.  For reasons that escape me, these parts of the new DA background that it acts as the base for have become widely popular. I guess the fanbase is just not as averse to "sell these new models/faction as the best ever" stuff, compard to back in the Ward days.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Fedor said:

 

Sadly, Crusade did basically say (albeit from a second-hand source) that the Dark Angels were the secret uber-exterminators of all the deadliest foes during the GC; the ones too existentially terrifying or powerful to even let others know exist, lest their minds break. It's part of the extremely ham-handed way it goes about the concept of them being the "template" legion, and having been given a DaoT cache by the Emperor.  I guess this was the Alpha Legion themed part... if Alpha Legion background had been written by a 10 year old creating background for his first army.

 

Of course, that wasn't enough: they are also the sanction for the mechanicum with that DaoT.  For reasons that escape me, these parts of the new DA background that it acts as the base for have become widely popular. I guess the fanbase is just not as averse to "sell these new models/faction as the best ever" stuff, compard to back in the Ward days.

 

 

 

Crusade is very inconsistent with the black library materials, and was heavily criticised for it's take on the dark angels when it released. I even remember a member here deconstructing it and the primarch novel as a PR washed dark angel propoganda piece. It's kinda the only way to square the two, contradictory, narratives around thramas. 

 

[Kelborn]

*rubbing temples*

 

About 3 pages of power level discussions and why A can/should/would defeat B and why not.

 

And now it's about which of the DAs feats are true and whichare made up?

 

I'm saying this as a member and not as a mod but I'm extremely tired of the everlasting Primarch vs Primarch discussions. They don't elevate a discussion and are quite repetitive, especially when it's about loyal and daemon Primarchs.

 

I for one finally got my copy and I can't wait to dive in and see for myself. That's still the best way to experience a story and find a conclusion for myself.

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, Fedor said:

 

I have read DoA, albeit over a decade ago now. I forgot that line, but i do distinctly remember it portraying the deadliest beast on Caliban as basically an oversized Chaosified lion; which was capable of being defeated by a single inexperienced psyker (zahariel). tbh that book made Caliban seem closer to a traditional heroic fantasy spooky enchanted forest realm, rather than a Chaos-tainted deathworld. Completely dropped the ball there, though i did like some other aspects of it.

 

You forgot that the Calibanite Lion was basically immune to bolter rounds and had killed nearly 200 people at the time and killed Zahariel's childhood hero and mentor before that fight. If he wasn't able to tap into his psyker abilities he would have been dead. Heck, when he left the entire Order assumed he would be dead and never able to return. His return in victory was a big deal to the Order and even made the Lion respect him.

 

This might help others understand the Calibanite Lion a bit more with obvious spoilers:

Quote

Spoiler

IN ONE FROZEN, fear extended instant, Zahariel saw a host of the beast's anatomical details as it charged. Its body was wide
and powerful, leonine only in the fact that it was a quadruped with a mane of blade-like spines growing from behind its
armoured head. Each of its limbs was sheathed in glistening plates of natural armour that had the quality of rock, yet the
pliability of flesh. Claws like knives extended from its front paws, and twin fangs, like the mightiest cavalry sabres
protruded from its upper jaw.
Zahariel had wondered if the figures of how many people the beast had slain were inflated to better convey its horror, but in
one terrible moment, he knew differently.
Only his instincts, honed by long hours in the shooting ranges of Aldurukh, saved his life.
Zahariel lifted the rotary barrelled pistol that the dying Amadis had given him and fired a rippling salvo of shots, sending
every bolt towards the centre of the lion's mass as his teachers had taught him.
The bolts struck home, but the lion appeared not to feel the blasts as they hit its thick hide. The rounds from his pistol had
explosive cores designed to detonate deep inside a target's body, and had enough stopping power to kill almost anything,
even a creature of such startling appearance and shape.
The lion shrugged them off as though it barely felt the impacts.
Roaring in fury, the lion lashed out with a bladed paw as it leapt.
The blow struck Zahariel's destrier, punching through the animal's side with an awful, bone breaking crack. The destrier
buckled as the lion eviscerated it, and Zahariel was flung bodily from his saddle, landing in a heap in the mud of the
clearing.
Zahariel scrambled to his feet quickly as his horse collapsed, its innards spilling from its ruptured body in a flood of hot
viscera. Distracted by such an easy kill, the lion's attention was fixed on Zahariel's dying mount.
Zahariel fired his pistol again, sending another fusillade at the lion as it took a bite of the screaming horse, the swords of its
fangs tearing a great slab of meat from the beast's rump. The armoured plates around the lion's body slithered across its
body, sparks and chunks of resinous material flying as each bolt struck home without effect.
His gun clicked dry as he emptied the last shots from the magazine, and the lion let out a deafening bellow that was part
roar, part howl. Zahariel hurriedly reloaded his weapon, as he backed away from the monster, horrified at the sheer power
of it.
The lion prowled around the edge of the clearing, its eyes serpentine and coloured a vivid orange with black slits at their
centres. The mane of blades at its neck pulsed with protean motion, each one cutting the air with lethal intent.
Zahariel kept moving, taking sideways steps in opposition to the huge beast. Its throaty growls and the ropes of drool that
hung from its opened jaws spoke of its terrible hunger, and he tried not to think of being ripped apart by its fangs.
Though the creature was an aberration, a monster from his worst nightmare, he had the impression that it was glowering at
him with dark amusement. Fighting back the onset of fear, Zahariel was reminded of the winged beast he had fought long
ago, remembering the spider and fly analogy he had used to describe how the beast had made him feel. This creature displayed
the same malicious enjoyment of the hunt, as though he were a meaty morsel to be savoured before being devoured.
His training told him to keep the lion at a distance and use his pistol to full effect, but his knightly code told him to charge
the beast and meet it in the glory of close combat.
Keeping his pistol trained on the prowling lion, Zahariel drew his sword as he considered his options. Counting the
magazine he had just loaded, he had two clips left for his pistol. There was more ammunition in a pannier hanging from the
saddle horn of his thrashing mount, but it was out of reach. Assuming he did not charge into close combat, he had twentyfour
shots at hand with which to kill the lion.
Ordinarily, he would have considered twenty-four rounds enough to defeat any foe, or any other creature in the universe,
but the great beasts of Caliban were chimerical monsters, combining the worst aspects of several different species of animal
into one foul body.
A sticky red liquid stained the front of the lion's body where it had been hit by the bullets, but he did not know whether it
was blood or some vile secretion.
Even the chunks blasted from its rock textured hide seemed to have closed over.
Without warning, the lion pounced across the clearing towards him with extraordinary speed. He dived to the side, bringing
his sword around in a low arc to deflect the creature's attack. Whirring teeth sliced into the creature's hide and splattered
Zahariel with gore.
The lion roared and twisted in mid leap, its heavy hindquarters slamming into Zahariel, pounding him to the ground. He
rolled as soon as he hit, keeping his sword extended upwards to avoid being torn apart by his own blade. The lion's spines
flared, and its heavy paws tore up the ground where he had fallen.
Zahariel stabbed with his blade, the whirring teeth cutting through the spines at the beast's neck. Drooling fluids sprayed
from severed blade spines, spattering his armour with hissing, acidic blood.
The lion spun and snapped at him with its enormous maw. Zahariel hurled himself to the side as powerful jaws slammed
closed within centimetres of his torso. He fired as he dodged its attack, putting several bullets into its side. Again, the beast
gave no sign of pain or shock, apparently immune to both.
Zahariel's skin was already slick and dripping with sweat, and he could feel a tightness across his shoulders and down the
length of his calves. His armour was equipped with mechanisms designed to keep him cool and support his movement, but
they were no match for the exertions of his fight against the lion.
His life lay balanced on a knife's edge, and the next few seconds would decide whether or not he lived to see another
sunset. The time for caution had passed.
Sweeping his sword in a wide arc to gain a few moments of breathing space from the roaring fury of the lion, Zahariel
suddenly leapt forward. Rolling as he hit the ground, he came up with Amadis's pistol blazing, firing another salvo of shots
as he ran screaming towards the lion.
For the briefest instant, the lion seemed almost surprised, opening its mouth in a loud bellow of rage. Zahariel and the lion
charged towards each other, crossing the no-man's-land between them in moments.
His proximity to the beast made his gorge rise. There was something loathsome, almost leprous about it. It was surrounded
by a sickly scent of decay that he was not really sure was a scent at all, as though the creature's inherent vileness was
transmitting itself to every object in its vicinity.
Zahariel felt as if the beast's aura of foulness had managed to seep into his pores through his armour. More than ever, its
presence felt like a cancer at the heart of the world, a source of vile contagion that must be destroyed.
His hatred gave him strength.
Zahariel was at close range, standing toe-to-claw with the monster. He pumped two more bolt rounds into it at point-blank
range in the instant before they met in a melee. Then, as the lion swiped at him with its claws, Zahariel slipped nimbly
under their clumsy grasp and thrust hard with his sword towards the creature's wide chest.
The lion bellowed and as its mouth opened. Zahariel fired his pistol into the yawning chasm, angling his shots towards the
roof of its mouth.
He thrust again and again, the blade skidding as its whirring teeth cut through the armoured outer layers of the lion's hide.
The lion's slamming head hit him a thunderous body blow, and he crashed to the ground, hearing the horrific sound of
bones breaking within his body.
Zahariel hit the ground hard, the wind knocked from his lungs as the beast smashed its front limbs down on his chest.
Blade-like talons punched through the outer layers of his breastplate, and he screamed as the tips pierced the skin and
muscle of his chest.
He could feel the pressure of the lion's weight, its head centimetres from his own and its thick, acrid drool spattering his
face. He could barely breathe.
The hand holding his pistol was still free, and he fired several shots into the lion's belly at point-blank range.
He heard an ominous cracking noise as the seals on his armour gave way. The lion stood atop him, knowing he was pinned
and powerless, and content to watch him suffer a slow, agonising death as it crushed the life out of him.
Zahariel felt as though there was an iron band around his chest, stopping him from breathing. The lion's claws lifted him
from the ground towards its mouth as it prepared to bite him in two. The great maw opened, and the waiting gust of
corruption that blew from its impossibly wide gullet was the foulest thing Zahariel could imagine.
The long tusks of its upper jaw extended from its mouth, each one like an organic sword blade, hauling him towards his
doom. He struggled uselessly in its grip, the talons of its paw wedged in his breastplate holding him stuck fast. He
screamed in anger and fear, feeling his hatred of the beast coalesce in a bright ball of furious energy at his core. He spat
into the creature's mouth as the fangs descended upon him.
He closed his eyes as the fangs bit down, and felt an outpouring of his hatred explode from his body in a glittering halo of
light.
Everything stopped.
Though his eyes were closed, he could see the shimmering outline of the lion, its every bone and internal organ laid bare to
his sight as though lit from within by some strange pellucid sun. He could see the blood pumping around its body, the pulse
of its heart and the foul energy that had brought it into existence.
The tableau was in motion, but glacially slow motion. Each beat of the lion's heart was a dull, thudding boom, like the arc
of an ancient pendulum. Its fangs still descended upon him, but their movement was so infinitesimally slow that it took him
a moment to even realise they were moving.
Every bone and muscle in Zahariel's body ached. His chest was on fire, and he could feel an aching cold seep into his bones
as this new and unknown power flowed through him. He looked down at his flesh, seeing the veins and bones beneath his
skin.
As he had suspected, the beast had fractured several of his ribs. He could see the splintered ends grinding together beneath
the transparency of his breastplate.
He lifted his arm towards the beast, his hand passing through the ghostly outline of its translucent flesh as though it were no
more substantial than smoke. He smiled dreamily as he saw that he still held Brother Amadis's pistol, its mechanisms and
internal workings laid bare to his newfound sight.
He pressed his pistol against the monster's heart, within the ghostly outline of the beast's body. He opened his eyes and
pulled the trigger.
An awful snap of reality reasserted itself, as the beast died in a spectacular fashion.
Zahariel's hand was buried in its flesh, his armoured vambrace penetrating its chest as though it had been implanted there.
Its jaw snapped closed on his shoulder guard, the blades of its fangs punching through the plate armour and burying
themselves in his body.
No sooner had its jaws closed than the lion's chest expanded with internal detonations.
Fire built behind its eyes and portions of its flanks exploded outwards as ammunition blasted out from inside the monster's
body.

 

The Lion is the only other person on Caliban who had ever killed a Calibanite Lion. 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

15 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

The Lion is the only other person on Caliban who had ever killed a Calibanite Lion. 

Isn't it that they're the only lion killers alive at that time, because the lions were already extinct and they killed the two last ones?

[Fedor]

1 hour ago, BitsHammer said:

You forgot that the Calibanite Lion was basically immune to bolter rounds and had killed nearly 200 people at the time and killed Zahariel's childhood hero and mentor before that fight. If he wasn't able to tap into his psyker abilities he would have been dead. Heck, when he left the entire Order assumed he would be dead and never able to return. His return in victory was a big deal to the Order and even made the Lion respect him.

 

This might help others understand the Calibanite Lion a bit more with obvious spoilers:

The Lion is the only other person on Caliban who had ever killed a Calibanite Lion. 

 

i didn't forget, but i don't see why any of that contradicts thinking it wasn't depicted as being all that impressive in the grand scheme of things, just a suitably deadly foe for the limited resources the Calibanites had.

 

It's more Juggernaut or souped up Flesh Hound than greater daemon or daemon primarch, and this is supposed to be the most formidable of them.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Fedor said:

 

i didn't forget, but i don't see why any of that contradicts thinking it wasn't depicted as being all that impressive in the grand scheme of things, just a suitably deadly foe for the limited resources the Calibanites had.

 

It's more Juggernaut or souped up Flesh Hound than greater daemon or daemon primarch, and this is supposed to be the most formidable of them.

 

I feel like there is a massive disconnect here between various power levels.

 

Something like: Child -> Grot -> Adult Human -> Geneforged Human -> Astartes -> Custode -> Primarch.

 

If a Caliban Lion is a noteworthy feat for an Astartes, its still something that should basically trivial for a Primarch. They are a breed apart.

 

The Lion, killing a Caliban Lion may be a way to signal his potency, but to any other Primarch its a Tuesday no?

[wecanhaveallthree]

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I'm saying this as a member and not as a mod but I'm extremely tired of the everlasting Primarch vs Primarch discussions. They don't elevate a discussion and are quite repetitive, especially when it's about loyal and daemon Primarchs.

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, this is what moves product. It gets the people going.

 

The fanbase voted with their wallets for this. The HH/Siege has been endless meaningless slapfights between Primarchs. Guilliman's return was around fighting one Primarch, with the promise of fighting others. The Lion has been brought back and almost immediately fights another Primarch. The time of Herohammer is upon us once more. Rejoice! 

[BitsHammer]

22 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

I feel like there is a massive disconnect here between various power levels.

 

Something like: Child -> Grot -> Adult Human -> Geneforged Human -> Astartes -> Custode -> Primarch.

 

If a Caliban Lion is a noteworthy feat for an Astartes, its still something that should basically trivial for a Primarch. They are a breed apart.

 

The Lion, killing a Caliban Lion may be a way to signal his potency, but to any other Primarch its a Tuesday no?

How many other Primarchs spent a decade living in the wild killing creatures like the Calibanite Lion? Or even fought creatures in that ballpark? Most of them fought humans to take control of their planets. The Lion's campaign to clear Caliban was unique because of what he had to fight to do it. About the only other one I can think of who dealt with non-humans was Vulkan who dealt with Dark Eldar.

 

As for the Lion's achievements to the Lion it's just another mark on his belt at that point and while the most impressive at that time, it was hardly the only dangerous thing he's killed and it was more an impressive achievement for the main character of Descent of Angels, but the point is that the Lion made the kill through mundane means, not psychic powers.

 

My point was to point out we do have some establishment of the Lion's accomplishments far beyond "we're only told he can do X but never see him do X or what X was like". People were claiming he wasn't shown to be a hunter or tactician but we had evidence of that from the Heresy, so I guess now we're just going to undermine his achievements to claim that he shouldn't have beaten Angron because his achievements suck or something.

[Fedor]

3 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

How many other Primarchs spent a decade living in the wild killing creatures like the Calibanite Lion? Or even fought creatures in that ballpark? Most of them fought humans to take control of their planets. The Lion's campaign to clear Caliban was unique because of what he had to fight to do it. About the only other one I can think of who dealt with non-humans was Vulkan who dealt with Dark Eldar.

 

As for the Lion's achievements to the Lion it's just another mark on his belt at that point and while the most impressive at that time, it was hardly the only dangerous thing he's killed and it was more an impressive achievement for the main character of Descent of Angels, but the point is that the Lion made the kill through mundane means, not psychic powers.

 

My point was to point out we do have some establishment of the Lion's accomplishments far beyond "we're only told he can do X but never see him do X or what X was like". People were claiming he wasn't shown to be a hunter or tactician but we had evidence of that from the Heresy, so I guess now we're just going to undermine his achievements to claim that he shouldn't have beaten Angron because his achievements suck or something.

 

Ferrus early years were very similar to the Lion...only replace Chaos tainted beasts with Necrons, various xenos, and DaoT related abominations.

 

it's not about demeaning his accomplishments; it's about not thinking pointing out hunting those beasts has much relevance as a justification for beating Angron (or anything else of similar power). Would you argue Ferrus has one up on a confrontation with the Silent King because he raided Necron tombs and killed a giant wyrm construct? Hopefully not.

[Roomsky]

Maybe if I shout loudly enough, it will banish this headache-inducing discussion to the Arks of Omen thread where it belongs.

 

I READ THE SAMPLE CHAPTERS OF THIS NOVEL AND IT WAS DECENT! WASN'T WOWED, BUT I ENJOYED IT. I HOPE BROOKS GETS TO WRITE THE LION'S "DARK IMPERIUM" TRILOGY DOWN THE LINE.

[Arkangilos]

53 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Maybe if I shout loudly enough, it will banish this headache-inducing discussion to the Arks of Omen thread where it belongs.

 

‘pparently not 

[wecanhaveallthree]

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Out of respect for Roomsky, I'm out. ;)

 

Out of disrespect for Roomsky, I'm in! 

 

The Lion isn't getting a Dark Imperium trilogy. He doesn't have Plague Wars to fight. What conflict does he have, actually? He's a cool old guy who totally cares about all those little humans now. Dante has bent the knee. Where do we actually go from here? He just rolls around beatsticking people?

[Roomsky]

You would challenge me here Wechat, in the heart of my power? You may be mightier on Reddit, but B&C is the crucible by which titans are formed. Where Darkchaplain battles Moonreaper. Where we once posted alongside HeritorA. 

 

/s

 

Maybe I'm just hopeful that by extending this into a trilogy we'll get more of the interesting internal conflict it sounds like this book just sort of danced around. It sounds like there's plenty of gaps between meeting Dante and fighting Angron that could be filled with PATHOS and DRAMA and NAVEL-GAZING. Have him decide that Dante's the real leader Nihilus needs, you cowards.

 

Also, considering how Godblight ended, fairly substantial rewrites are possible (but ideally not for the worse, this time.) Maybe we could even get a version of the big primarch dick-jousting match that doesn't annoy as much of the fanbase!

 

Or maybe I'm still so salty about Godblight I'd like to see Brooks write 3 novels, however, middling, just to have a less hair-pulling alternative.

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Kelborn said:

*rubbing temples*

 

About 3 pages of power level discussions and why A can/should/would defeat B and why not.

 

And now it's about which of the DAs feats are true and whichare made up?

 

I'm saying this as a member and not as a mod but I'm extremely tired of the everlasting Primarch vs Primarch discussions. They don't elevate a discussion and are quite repetitive, especially when it's about loyal and daemon Primarchs.

 

I for one finally got my copy and I can't wait to dive in and see for myself. That's still the best way to experience a story and find a conclusion for myself.

 

Well the arks book is basically part 2 of the novel, because the novel is super tie in fiction to even explain why the character is back. So they're rather strongly interlinked. Some people dont like the framing that both tie in books provide for the lion; other people think they're crazy for holding that opinion. 

 

My favorite parts of the plague war trilogy wasn't guilliman fighting people; it was him talking to them and interacting. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the primarchs fighting things sell novels, and so we have passages of it in....almost every book a primarch features in. If it's done poorly, it gets commented on. And if their character seems to have a sudden change, it'll also get commented on (see all the comments made on abnetts books).

 

I do agree on reading the work itself, and i look forward to it over the weekend.

[BitsHammer]

I think we have room for a trilogy. I mean for a start the Lion has a "feeling" he'll see Angron again soon, but honestly I'd like to see them tie the Lion into the Nids because a person who hunts beasts versus the Nids could be a lot of fun.

 

Also if the Lion is going to be the Imperium Nihlus primarch running through the woods killing monsters and protecting people while Guilliman does paperwork and politics in the "True Imperium" I think we have a good dynamic since the Dark Imperium needs more lore, plus it has a lot of fires to put out we don't even know much about other than the Blood Angels have been slowly trying to reconnect worlds, and the Lion has done the same and the Arks of Omen books ended in Nihlus.