Vulcan mega bolter as AA?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Any one seen any mentions of an air defense mount/usage of the vulcan mega bolter?

 

i imagine a VT fused flak round would be quite effective in that role.

[Xenith]

Maybe on space ships as anti ordnance turrets, though we normally head about defence lasers. While it would put out a lot of shots, I think the in-universe range might set it back, most aa weapons would have much longer ranges, as issue you don't get in space. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The short barrels would be an issue for ground to air usage, not so much space as Zenith points out.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Xenith said:

Maybe on space ships as anti ordnance turrets, though we normally head about defence lasers. While it would put out a lot of shots, I think the in-universe range might set it back, most aa weapons would have much longer ranges, as issue you don't get in space. 

What is their range in universe?

 

Theres plenty of short ranged AAA in use today most of them being rotary guns with short range.

 

even with a range of only a few miles, they’d still be excellent for knocking things like drop pods or things like thunderhawks out of the sky since their whole point is bringing troops directly to the battlefield.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

In AT they're 20 inches. Which is very short for AT.

 

[Noserenda]

I don't think they'd even be big enough to count as turrets on space ships :D

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

No clue what this website is but they say 50km, which does seem a lot farther  than I would expect.

i could see around 5mile range max, which would be something like 11km?

 

https://aminoapps.com/c/space-warfare-rp/page/item/vulcan-mega-bolter/qk8a_WGnC3In3Ronpkrlp6eQpqYzlBaBkpr

Edited March 31, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'd suggest that's the range in the void.

[Jolemai]

Fwiw the vulcan mega bolter has the same range and similar ballpark 40k stats to tabletop anti-air weapons. It just lacks the bonuses vs aircraft, so sure, it can be used as a backup.

 

If you want to homebrew a different type of ammunition, we have a section for that:

 

+ HOMEGROWN RULES + - The Bolter and Chainsword

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I'd suggest that's the range in the void.

In the void the range would only be limited by what it hits as there’s no gravity or air resistance the round will theoretically travel forever if I’m understanding mr newton correctly 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Effective range?

50km seems a long way for a Vulcan, that's artillery range.

 

Bearing in mind it's not an indirect fire weapon, why would this site have its range at considerably further away than the horizon?

 

(The horizon is about 5km away for most people at sea level, 50km is well beyond direct fire range.)

Edited March 31, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm addition, looking at actual modern artillery, it's only just reaching 70km now, so I really don't see the Vulcan reaching those ranges in atmosphere, not in anyway accurately.

 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/06/16/new-army-artillery-doubles-attack-range-outguns-russian-equivalent.html

Edited March 31, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[sairence]

It's my understanding that Titans  weapons are usually designed to deal with targets of considerable size themselves. Other titans, knight-sized, big tanks, fortifications, whole vehicle columns, etc. They're not usually made to deal with small, nimble targets, cause the Titan itself isn't really agile enough for that. That's why their hulls are usually studded with smaller gun emplacements and why they have small armies inside them to deal with the nagging insects or boarding attempts.

 

So in my view at least, I just don't see titan-grade weapons as particularly suitable for dealing with aircraft. Sure, you can probably make it work, but there's likely better tools for the job 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I'm addition, looking at actual modern artillery, it's only just reaching 70km now, so I really don't see the Vulcan reaching those ranges in atmosphere, not in anyway accurately.

 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/06/16/new-army-artillery-doubles-attack-range-outguns-russian-equivalent.html

Navy has 100mile artillery but not enough guns to order in enough bulk to financially viable right now 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Land_Attack_Projectile

Edited March 31, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, sairence said:

It's my understanding that Titans  weapons are usually designed to deal with targets of considerable size themselves. Other titans, knight-sized, big tanks, fortifications, whole vehicle columns, etc. They're not usually made to deal with small, nimble targets, cause the Titan itself isn't really agile enough for that. That's why their hulls are usually studded with smaller gun emplacements and why they have small armies inside them to deal with the nagging insects or boarding attempts.

 

So in my view at least, I just don't see titan-grade weapons as particularly suitable for dealing with aircraft. Sure, you can probably make it work, but there's likely better tools for the job 

The whole point of the vulcan is to deal with small nimble targets…just because titans wouldn’t be able to use them in such a manner doesn’t mean a high angle mount couldn’t be created to target aircraft 

[Xenith]

6 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I'd suggest that's the range in the void.

Indeed, the website linked to is a Space Warfare roleplay site, so almost definitely 50km in the void. 

[Sothalor]

There are at least two factors to consider here.

 

First, the Vulcan Mega-Bolter projectile itself. Would it work for general anti-air? Sure. It's a rocket-propelled, mass-reactive explosive shell that looks like it's at least 35mm caliber, barring wonkiness in scaling on minis or liberties in artwork. The fact that they're fired from multi-barreled rotary cannons implies very high potential rates of fire.

 

No aircraft wants its flight path to intersect with a burst of those things.

 

Second, however, we typically see VMBs mounted on large platforms like super-heavy tanks and Titans. There are considerations like angles of traverse and elevation - if you take a Stormlord, for instance, you'd need to rotate the entire super-heavy tank chassis to track an aircraft, and it may not be able to angle its guns up enough to even get a firing trajectory. Similarly, exactly how fast can something like a Warhound Titan reorient its weapons? There may be mechanical limitations - as an extreme example during the Second World War DEFINITELY no plane wanted to get hit by a battleship's main gun array. But that was never a concern for them because no battleship could target a plane with its main guns.

 

So it's probably overall a mixed bag. The weapon system itself in terms of rate of fire and effect on target certainly would be scary to conventional aircraft, but we don't typically see them deployed on dedicated anti-air platforms.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

There are at least two factors to consider here.

 

First, the Vulcan Mega-Bolter projectile itself. Would it work for general anti-air? Sure. It's a rocket-propelled, mass-reactive explosive shell that looks like it's at least 35mm caliber, barring wonkiness in scaling on minis or liberties in artwork. The fact that they're fired from multi-barreled rotary cannons implies very high potential rates of fire.

 

No aircraft wants its flight path to intersect with a burst of those things.

 

Second, however, we typically see VMBs mounted on large platforms like super-heavy tanks and Titans. There are considerations like angles of traverse and elevation - if you take a Stormlord, for instance, you'd need to rotate the entire super-heavy tank chassis to track an aircraft, and it may not be able to angle its guns up enough to even get a firing trajectory. Similarly, exactly how fast can something like a Warhound Titan reorient its weapons? There may be mechanical limitations - as an extreme example during the Second World War DEFINITELY no plane wanted to get hit by a battleship's main gun array. But that was never a concern for them because no battleship could target a plane with its main guns.

 

So it's probably overall a mixed bag. The weapon system itself in terms of rate of fire and effect on target certainly would be scary to conventional aircraft, but we don't typically see them deployed on dedicated anti-air platforms.

The VMB is a lot larger than 35mm they say it’s rounds are larger than a man’s head. 
we’re talking about 125mm at least.

a single flak variant shell could take down all but the largest aircraft with a single shot bursting within about 8ft.

 

Putting it in a high angle or dual purpose mount means it would likely be ideal

[Sword Brother Adelard]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Navy has 100mile artillery but not enough guns to order in enough bulk to financially viable right now 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Land_Attack_Projectile

 

But Vulcans are not an indirect fire artillery weapon. So I just don't see how their in atmosphere range could be anywhere near 50km?

 

Looking at the site you pulled that from, I'd say it's the void effective range. Which it would be really useful for, it's not an AA gun. For that you want things like ironhails or hydra flaks.

It's like in Double Eagle where they use an exterminator turret to down a Bat. It was more luck than judgment, and not possible at range.

 

Why are you so keen for the idea out of interest?

[Lord_Ikka]

Could a VHB be mounted on a AA turret? Sure- it is a high-volume firepower weapon with the ability to take down aircraft easily. Would a VHB be used this way- maybe. The reasons it would are fairly obvious; lots of shots, fairly decent armor-piercing capability, explosive payload which is needed for flak, all useful. The cons are that the ammunition is expensive, much more expensive to make the self-propelled mass reactive rocket bolts than simple hi-ex/AT flak autocannon rounds or the low expense of charging lascannons. 

 

The 40k universe is weird in a lot of ways, but remember that bolter weapons and ammunition are hard to manufacture and expensive. Even with large forge worlds having entire factory-continents dedicated to their production, the ability of the AdMech/Munitorum to supply bolt rounds of any size is much less than more ubiquitous weapons like autocannons/lascannons. That is probably a very good reason we only see dedicated anti-aircraft turrets using those weapons- bolt rounds are needed more for SM chapters, Titan Legions, and the various other high-ranking members of the Imperium military.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Lord_Ikka

[Noserenda]

7 hours ago, sairence said:

It's my understanding that Titans  weapons are usually designed to deal with targets of considerable size themselves. Other titans, knight-sized, big tanks, fortifications, whole vehicle columns, etc. They're not usually made to deal with small, nimble targets, cause the Titan itself isn't really agile enough for that. That's why their hulls are usually studded with smaller gun emplacements and why they have small armies inside them to deal with the nagging insects or boarding attempts.

 

So in my view at least, I just don't see titan-grade weapons as particularly suitable for dealing with aircraft. Sure, you can probably make it work, but there's likely better tools for the job 

The Vulcan mega bolter is precisely designed to hit small nimble targets, its primarily an anti infantry/light armour weapon though that does vary by rules edition from time to time. Titans were designed originally as the whole of an armed force with very basic infantry support on Mars and evolved very little from there.

Really they should be studded with small weapon emplacements and carrying a much bigger crew but all the original hulls were not given that much thought back in the 80's and the Reaver and Warhound never got updated really since then, at least the warlord picked up a few emplaced lascannons on its 40k model, but only the Imperator (And possibly warmaster?) carry any number of troops, the Warlord has a very small crew plus servitors, their secutarii have to hoof it alongside.

Aircraft should really be a big problem for Titans, but then every titan really should at least have something like the knights mount for AAA! 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

 

But Vulcans are not an indirect fire artillery weapon. So I just don't see how their in atmosphere range could be anywhere near 50km?

 

Looking at the site you pulled that from, I'd say it's the void effective range. Which it would be really useful for, it's not an AA gun. For that you want things like ironhails or hydra flaks.

It's like in Double Eagle where they use an exterminator turret to down a Bat. It was more luck than judgment, and not possible at range.

 

Why are you so keen for the idea out of interest?

Technically any gun is an indirect fire gun if you point the barrel up enough lol.

 

i was just pointing out we do have 100+ mile guns these days 

 

rotary guns of any significant size currently are AA weapons primarily so just had me thinking.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Urauloth]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

In the void the range would only be limited by what it hits as there’s no gravity or air resistance the round will theoretically travel forever if I’m understanding mr newton correctly 

Technically yes, but you still want it to hit whatever you're it shooting at, and since voidships are extremely fast the effective range of any projectile weapon is always going to be limited by your ability to calculate firing solutions and get your projectiles to the target before it can get out of their way. I don't know how fast a VMB shell travels, but I doubt it has a very long effective range in a void battle. It might, as you suggest, be quite useful as a point defence weapon though. (On the other hand, that would probably be pretty expensive in terms of ammunition)

Edited April 1, 2023 by Urauloth

[Noserenda]

Could see a VMB mounted on one of the space fighters, those bad boys a huuuuge.

[Urauloth]

Pretty sure it's almost all las and auto on starfighters. Autocannons might come back around to bolter ammo being expensive? Las makes a ton of sense, though, because of how fast it hits.