The importance of subfaction variation

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Yes it is  ,  but just because you're not following me doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

Arkangilos understood, that's enough for me 50% is a pass.

Shoot what school did you go to where 50% was a passing grade?

[Arkangilos]

6 minutes ago, Schlitzaf said:

Also for my 2 cents, 4th Ed System was terrible and prone to abuse, “my drawbacks, I don’t take allies or pyskers”. As a classic example. 

This fix for this is just updating the drawbacks. It’s the principle I support, the execution can be changed.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Alright, so hear me out.

1) No oath of moment

2) +1S on all charges.

3) However, like @Blindhamstersuggested, if it is used it reduces the scoring stat on the objective.

4) Sanguinary Guard is one unit per warlord (with the new 1 warlord rule) unless it is a narrative game that includes the chapter master and his host.

5) 3rd Edition DC generation rule.

 

Would you say that sounds fair? If so, and we end up losing our special rule and become generic unless we pick a special detachment, these are the rules I would want house ruled in if we ever played.

The random DC mechanic was fun and fluffy but it will never come back just like AOS will never give bonuses for having a beard or shouting something ever again or whatever those rules were.

[Noserenda]

Can confirm Blood Angels were extremely obnoxious in 3rd edition, mostly by dint of being the Chapter best able to exploit Rhino rushing from memory but Death company and Honour Guard were great too, the latter (And possibly the former) being one of a very few units able to go all power weapon and roll from combat to combat wrecking face.

This was all before net listing and global metas were really a thing yet though so its much harder to claim a unified experience.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 minute ago, Noserenda said:

Can confirm Blood Angels were extremely obnoxious in 3rd edition, mostly by dint of being the Chapter best able to exploit Rhino rushing from memory but Death company and Honour Guard were great too, the latter (And possibly the former) being one of a very few units able to go all power weapon and roll from combat to combat wrecking face.

This was all before net listing and global metas were really a thing yet though so its much harder to claim a unified experience.

I recently reviewed my 3rd Ed dex and DC could not go all power weapon just the ‘sgt’

[Arkangilos]

3 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

(And possibly the former) being one of a very few units able to go all power weapon and roll from combat to combat wrecking face.

Back then they could only get bolters or bolt pistols with a CCW, unless it was a veteran sergeant that became DC, in which he could get either a power weapon or power fist.  (Lol @Inquisitor_Lensoven, I literally just opened mine when you posted that).

Edited April 9, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Noserenda]

Yeah i remember a couple in the squad, something like using any sergeant that didnt have one in the death company where possible because it was free or something? 

But yeah, Honour guard were the real hammer unit.

[Arkangilos]

1 minute ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah i remember a couple in the squad, something like using any sergeant that didnt have one in the death company where possible because it was free or something? 

Basically if you have a squad with a veteran sergeant and roll that squad as losing a guy to the DC, you could choose the Veteran Sergeant, and he could get the upgrade for the power weapon, but you would lose him in the squad he came from. 

[Noserenda]

That reminds me though, was it 3rd where squads could just surge forwards randomly which made heavy weapons useless? Crappy design that, why even have Devastator squads as an option when they are a trap? Like not just suboptimal but fully a trap :( 

 

[Arkangilos]

3 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

That reminds me though, was it 3rd where squads could just surge forwards randomly which made heavy weapons useless? Crappy design that, why even have Devastator squads as an option when they are a trap? Like not just suboptimal but fully a trap :( 

Yeah, I liked that, though. On a roll of one they surged forward (but that could be avoided if you had certain characters and gear). And if DC didn’t have a chaplain or SHP leading them they’d be forced to surge forward every turn.

 

Their scouts were also not just recruits.

[spessmarine]

Some of this stuff is best suited for unique units. Lots of arguing about red thirst/black rage/sable brand, didn't follow along with most of it but I feel confident saying your standard BA Devastator or Eradicator doesn't need it represented.
The faction trait doesn't need to be the sole source of identity. Strategems, detachments, unique units, relics, and traits exist too. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by spessmarine

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, One Paul Murray said:

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, it just doesn't say to me that BAs are stronger than others in passages like that.

 

There's only so many ways to represent combat prowess with an abstraction in the D6 GW rulesets.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

21 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

Some of this stuff is best suited for unique units. Lots of arguing about red thirst/black rage/sable brand, didn't follow along with most of it but I feel confident saying your standard BA Devastator or Eradicator doesn't need it represented.
The faction trait doesn't need to be the sole source of identity. Strategems, detachments, unique units, relics, and traits exist too. 

And strats, relics, and WLTs have been the biggest sources of complaints about bloat for this edition.

 

BA have a lot of fluffy strats, but many of them should just be on datasheets or a selectable trait like Lucifer pattern engines/OC’d engines.

 

this is unlikely but it would be cool if the big 4 got a subfaction trait, and then 4 or 5 custom trait options in their codexes, and the vanilla dex likewise got 4-5 options

 

so BA red thirst +1S on the charge and +1” to charge rolls 

 

the OC’d engines, add 2” to M for all vehicles.

Rapid assault, advance with no penalty to assault weapons.

master artesans , +1 to Sv rolls

furious charge, advance and charge

 

not familiar enough with others from the big 4 to do something similar.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Schlitzaf]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

This fix for this is just updating the drawbacks. It’s the principle I support, the execution can be changed.

It won’t work, unless drawbacks get tied to specific traits. Otherwise you’ll always take the drawback that just not relevant for the army. Even with modern DIY traits, frankly how much “unique” custom trait configurations have you seen? 

[Rain]

37 minutes ago, Schlitzaf said:

It won’t work, unless drawbacks get tied to specific traits. Otherwise you’ll always take the drawback that just not relevant for the army. Even with modern DIY traits, frankly how much “unique” custom trait configurations have you seen? 

Kind of depends on the drawback. Drawbacks that limit unit choice probably won’t work, as armies can be built that would omit those units anyway. However, flat stat decreases for all units, loss of command points, and other global effects that affect the entire army no matter the unit choice can make for meaningful drawbacks as long as *all* of the drawbacks are meaningful, and there is not a single “sink” drawback that everyone picks because it has no effect for the army they are taking.

 

That said, tying each advantage to a specific themed drawback 1 to 1 is even better.

[spessmarine]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And strats, relics, and WLTs have been the biggest sources of complaints about bloat for this edition.

 

BA have a lot of fluffy strats, but many of them should just be on datasheets or a selectable trait like Lucifer pattern engines/OC’d engines.

I think that is more a case of too many, not that any exist. More in the vein of HH Advanced Reactions than sheer volume.

But reviewing things

Basic faction/chapter trait -> optional detachments -> 6 unique strategems -> unique units -> enhancements

That is quite a lot of dials to turn for someone, before even reaching things like hypothetical faction/subfaction wargear and vehicle gadgets.

Edited April 10, 2023 by spessmarine

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

29 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

I think that is more a case of too many, not that any exist. More in the vein of HH Advanced Reactions than sheer volume.

But reviewing things

Basic faction/chapter trait -> optional detachments -> 6 unique strategems -> unique units -> enhancements

That is quite a lot of dials to turn for someone, before even reaching things like hypothetical faction/subfaction wargear and vehicle gadgets.

and how many strats, WLTs, and relic do you think it takes to convey a subfaction's flavor without dumbing the subfaction down to a meme level?

It's largely been lost over time to the memes of jump troops and vampires, but the BA flavor comes from their desire to get up close and personal in general, and that's why they over charged the engines on their predator tanks...

you can 100% have a lore friendly BA list that is based on bikes, speeders, and tanks. they just need representation via over charged engines. a WLT might enable that, a relic might grant that to one vehicle, a strat would likely only grant that ability to 1 unit once per phase...

edit
and that is why i use rapid assault to represent my BA successors. imho BA don't necessarily need buffs in melee to be fluffy, but if not melee buffs they need general mobility buffs. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[spessmarine]

40 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

and how many strats, WLTs, and relic do you think it takes to convey a subfaction's flavor without dumbing the subfaction down to a meme level?

 

I also forgot, psyker discipline above, since each chapter now does have that sort of thing.

With a faction trait, two unique detachments to opt into, a psyker discipline, six strategems, six relics, six traits I'd probably say you'd have plenty of flavour. Throw in some unique units/characters and we're in flavourtown.

 

Could probably even pare down to 3-and-3 for relics/traits since often even if there are a dozen most will be ignored usually.

All comes down to them being well-written more than anything.

 

You don't need further stuff like strats or relics just for BA footnotes like an overcharged tank, that is beyond the core essentials. That is covered, or ought to be, in the sheet for the Baal Predator.

Edited April 10, 2023 by spessmarine

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

 

I also forgot, psyker discipline above, since each chapter now does have that sort of thing.

With a faction trait, two unique detachments to opt into, a psyker discipline, six strategems, six relics, six traits I'd probably say you'd have plenty of flavour. Throw in some unique units/characters and we're in flavourtown.

 

Could probably even pare down to 3-and-3 for relics/traits since often even if there are a dozen most will be ignored usually.

All comes down to them being well-written more than anything.

 

You don't need further stuff like strats or relics just for BA footnotes like an overcharged tank, that is beyond the core essentials. That is covered, or ought to be, in the sheet for the Baal Predator.

Or we can do away with strats and what not completely, and just give subfactions interesting rules options…

 

the point in people trying to get rid of subfaction rules is for balance…

 

so balance 12 special rules against each other or try to balance 72 special rules against each other…which makes more sense and would be easier?

 

or in my example 60 special rules compared to 72.

 

I think you could still get plenty of options or represent different gene lines with 1 standard trait, and 3 mix n match traits comes out to only 48 rules to balance…again, vs 72….

[Xanthous]

7 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

I also forgot, psyker discipline above, since each chapter now does have that sort of thing.

 

Aren't we losing psychic disciplines as we know them? That's going to be another thing that seems like it'll be lost with the new approach to subfactions. If psychic actions are baked into the datasheet, then maybe the more divergent chapters will keep their psychic flavour if they're getting their own codices, but how are the more unique disciplines like the White Scars' Stormspeaking or the Salamanders' Promethean psychic powers going to be represented, if at all? I could see the psychic actions on the datasheets being aesthetically ambiguous, so that the player can use their imagination, but whether that's a satisfying enough solution, I couldn't tell you.

[One Paul Murray]

I confess to still not fully getting the insistence that BA must get some bonus to strength on the charge. It just feels to me like a lot of talk about fury and anger is being taken to mean strong. But I think that discussion has been all mined out and we're not going to agree.

 

For all the complaints about bloat it does feel a bit like the attempt to reduce it is being seen as undermining the flavour of the factions. So are people saying that flavour and bloat are synonymous?

 

[Orange Knight]

I don't believe the average Blood Angel is stronger, but he may well be angrier.

 

Once they succumb to their rage and become Death Company Marines they probably will be stronger, that entire condition is some sort of psychic manifestation in them.

 

Would anyone like to see models for the actual vampiric monsters the Blood Angels can become?

[Interrogator Stobz]

@Orange KnightI agree, the rage makes them stronger, the Thirst just makes them angry.

There is a need to tone down expectations.

Just like the vehicle thing, we have moved beyond ork level tech now.

 

@One Paul MurrayI have been saying bloat and flavour are synonymous gor a while. As everyone gets their toys in turn eventually everything gets bloated by the things they think they want.

 

[Blindhamster]

Again.. it’s been shown that a blood angel under the affects of the thirst (not the rage) required multiple brothers to hold him back, and the thirst is the reason given. 
 

also, a single rule representing the thirst does not equal bloat, particularly as people want it to replace oath of moment as the army ability

 

but yeah, it’s very much a circular discussion at this point 

 

p.s. models for the prisoners of the tower of Amareo would actually be interesting, though they’ve not been used for warfare outside of a single battle

Edited April 10, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Special Officer Doofy]

This thread is like 3 pages about sub faction's in general and 11 pages of a few people succumbing to the red thirst.