The importance of subfaction variation

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

 

* The implication you gave being it's our (DA, BT, etc. players) fault that the topic is too BA-focused by us not participating. I'm rebutting this and saying we have our various reasons not to, which means you should be making an effort to keep the conversation general, or take it to the BA forum.

That wasn’t meant to be my point. My point was that it is only currently so BA heavy because currently we are the only ones choosing to participate (for the most part) on the defense. If other ones began to participate more and the argument moved into their rules, it would move to that. 
 

Like I’m not telling you to, but it isn’t a BA topic, it’s just BA are the ones replying the most. 

[Arkangilos]

33 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

More so BA fans think they are more special than the other chapters, but spin it however you like. The only reason BA are more popular than most of the other chapters is because they got their own books and models early on. Weird how GW supports a chapter more, so people support it more too (and that's the order it went, not the other way around). I mean you're not special, it's just the loyalist version of red = angry marines. BA even have the same paint scheme as the world eaters, instead of a nail you guys have dead daddy issues.

 

This whole thread is just BA fans going "we are special and we demand special rules like we have always received for no reason other than GW put us in a separate book in 2E" and the rest of us being like "we don't care, we just want a balanced game, and sometimes that means nobody is special". Neither side cares about the others opinion.

That’s not at all accurate, and shows you have ignored my argument, where I said repeatedly that everyone should have rules to distinguish their lore. 
 

I collect and play BA because of their lore, not their rules. I want the BA to maintain their rules because I think rules should represent the fluff. 
 

I said repeatedly that the other factions should also have their lore represented in the fluff. Literally every other BA fan here has said the same thing. 
 

33 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

More so BA fans think they are more special than the other chapters

Explain to me how I think that when I want all of the big chapters represented with special rules? 
 

33 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

and the rest of us

No. Not the rest of you. @Scribeisnt a BA player. @ThePenitentOneisn’t a BA player. Several others who replied in favor of the subfaction rules aren’t BA players.

 

If you are going to falsely accuse those who support special rules for factions to support the lore of doing so for false reasons, at least have the decency to read the actual substance. 
 

Here, so you don’t keep misrepresenting my argument and making me out as defending something for a cause I’m not defending it for:

 

I want special rules and defend our special rules because of this principle: Rules should reflect the lore, and I don’t want a game to be dumbed down to super vanilla because some power gamers are salty their army isn’t the best, or that the game isn’t perfectly balanced. I’m tired of tournament gamers sucking the flavor out of games, from Video Games to Table Top Games. 
 

It isn’t because I want my faction to be strong. I would make the same argument for the SW, I made the same argument in this very thread for the Imperial Fists. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Beta galactosidase]

Regular, sane blood angels have vampiric super powers that make them younger and stronger.  It’s not only mental, and it is not only the aberrant monsters locked in the tower. This is what happens in the Dante novel:

 

Quote

Dante wept as he drained the man of life. In the last iron drops of blood to slide down his gullet came Arafeo’s gratitude. Arafeo’s heart fluttered under Dante’s hand and stilled. The lord commander sat back on his heels, leaving one hand on his dead servant’s chest. With the other he wiped the mixture of blood and tears from his face. Arafeo’s eyes were open, and though the soul-light had gone from them, his final expression was one of happiness. 

A complex mix of emotion coursed through Dante: satisfaction from his feeding, sorrow for his servant, revulsion at his thirst, and, most difficult to quantify, shame that he could not live up to the way Arafeo had seen him. He was calmer. The weight of years sat more lightly on his shoulders. He felt his skin tighten and the lines that marred his face shallow. He got to his feet, heavy with his meal, yet already feeling the first sting of renewed vitality. 

 

 

 

there is an easy built-in drawback to this in games, which is that jumper-heavy melee lists have usually been boneheaded and not very good, for normal chapters and for blood angels. Blood Angels are just as likely to die stupidly on the way to melee and to not have enough attacks when they get there as other chapters. It can be an army to play for players who are crazy, not for the characters who are crazy.

 

The spoiled and demanding behavior is the idea that marines can do whatever they want, be every thing to every body, make a CC army just by taking blade guard.  

[Scribe]

Some amusingly poor arguments are being pushed.

 

This has nothing specifically to do with BA.

 

I want Goff traits.

I want various Sisters orders.

I want Imperial Fist traits, and BT.

I want Word Bearers. 

I want Eldar craftworlds. 

 

All the various sub-factions we have had for decades, with very often dedicated unique rules.

 

Traitor Legions. It's not hard to get, people are playing dumb and it's getting amusing. 

[Arikel]

I presented a theory or two which seems dashed by the currently available info from GW. They didn’t mention subfactions at all in the last article which means they either won’t have any, or that they will be considered their own faction, which makes a lie of their statement of army color not mattering.

 

Given the current info, it would seem that the only difference between space marines will be unique characters, and perhaps, bespoke units fielded by specific chapters and their succesors.

 

In this case, one would need to play into the character of their chapter to provide the distinction they seek. This would mean building a list that fits the fighting style and traditional themes of their chapter. A chapter noted for their aggression and preference for close combat could be simulated by taking appropriate units that allow one to close with the enemy quickly, not just jump packers or bikers, but mechanized tacticals/intercessors and heavy support, as well as  weapons to suit that style like flamers , meltas and other close range weapons that can be shot on the move instead of lascannons or missile launchers, all while arming your squad leaders and heroes with the best melee options available because you want them to hit as hard as they themselves would wish too were they real.

 

Once the list is built, a suitable detachment would theoretically provide appropriate stratagems and enhancements that would complement your chosen fighting force’s combat style. It would then be up to you as the player to play the way you would expect your army to fight, without any further specific rules support that benefits or restricts you.
 

One difference to the current form of the game is that you aren’t necessarily locked into that  style choice. You could choose a different detachment at any time to use with your minis, that might be better suited to fighting certain opponents, or in a situation where it simply wouldn’t be tactically sound to use the traditionally preferred strategies/tactics of  your dudes, without any additional drawbacks. Space Marines are supposed to be flexible enough to fight in any situation, after all.

 

Addenda: In response to the fellow some pages back where he mentioned he had never heard of space marine squads switching armaments if needed according to battlefield needs, I do admit that I can’t find any specific passage in my codexes to support that. 
 

I may have been inferring too much from their training, which traditionally goes from scout to dev company to assault company to tactical reserve company to a battleline company, as well as specific crosstraining with bikes and speeders, where it is stated specifically they can use them if needed. 
 

This does, in my opinion, imply that any fully trained marine in a battle company would have at least basic competence with most of the space marine armoury,  and be able to serve in any of the 3 roles should duty require it. In my mind they would equip as needed for the mission at hand, within the limits of what equipment they have available at the time, but as you mention this is not specifically stated anywhere I could find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arkangilos]

1 minute ago, Arikel said:

Addenda: In response to the fellow some pages back where he mentioned he had never heard of space marine squads switching armaments if needed according to battlefield needs, I do admit that I can’t find any specific passage in my codexes to support that. 

I could be wrong but I think that was in regards to something I said. 
If so, I didn’t mean to say they don’t flip armaments if needed according to battlefield conditions, but that they would still maintain Codex Compliance (so a battle company would not switch all their guys to be assault marines, even if the situation would benefit from it). What they would do is have someone move to an under strength squad to fulfill need.

 

For example, a Battle Company deploys to Edison IV. They would never, without other company support, exceed 2 assault squads, 2 devastator squads, and 6 tactical squads. But let’s say they lose an assault squad. Then 1 tactical squad could arm themselves as an assault squad to fulfill that niche.

[Special Officer Doofy]

32 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Explain to me how I think that when I want all of the big chapters represented with special rules? 

 

Exactly. The big chapters. Not the others. The others (non big ones?) don't care about your perceived issue of not getting your special representation you desire, something they never have got themselves until the last supplements. Half of the chaos legions don't even have named characters to use, god forbid the BA still have special rules and units.

 

Im not miss representing your argument, I was not even talking to you. Started ignoring your circular posts long ago. 

 

Edit: 10th be out before we know it. Either BA will get their own "faction" bonus and you'll look back at this thread and laugh about worrying over nothing, or they won't and will be lumped up with all the other Marines and I'll be here to laugh. Only a few months away now.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Arkangilos]

3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Exactly. The big chapters. Not the others. The others (non big ones?) don't care about your perceived issue of not getting your special representation you desire, something they never have got themselves until the last supplements.

Do you think the Chaos Legions, Space Wolves, etc. should lose their special rules, too? Should all chaos forces just be as vanilla as Space Marines?

3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Exactly. The big chapters. Not the others.

Nah fam, you clearly should have not ignored my posts because I specifically mentioned all chapters a while back via the fourth edition trait selection.

 

If you are going to come at me, at least know what you are talking about.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Special Officer Doofy]

4 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

If you are going to come at me, at least know what you are talking about.

 

You're the one replying to my posts that are quoting someone else, I'm not "coming at you"? I don't care for your posts or opinion, the red thirst has already taken you, I can tell by your +1S.

[Arkangilos]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

You're the one replying to my posts that are quoting someone else, I'm not "coming at you"? I don't care for your posts or opinion, the red thirst has already taken you, I can tell by your +1S.

Fair enough. 
 

Also, happy Easter Tuesday everyone!

[spessmarine]

4 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

I mean it isn’t our fault no one else is defending subfaction variation. 

If a BT, DA, or anyone else want to argue in favor of their special rules no one is stopping them.

I've been defending subfaction variety chapter-neutrally though :shrug:

At least, in my view of attempting to be efficient with flavour, your-chapter-in-a-condiment-packet.

[Kastor Krieg]

6 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

I mean it isn’t our fault no one else is defending subfaction variation. 
If a BT, DA, or anyone else want to argue in favor of their special rules no one is stopping them.

Uh, I've very vocally stated that BT absolutely have to retain core subfaction characteristics.

[Arkangilos]

9 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Uh, I've very vocally stated that BT absolutely have to retain core subfaction characteristics.

I was being overly generalizing. There are a handful of none BA people that did speak up (as pointed out), but no one really addressed them, they kept coming back and addressing us. 

 

3 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

This whole thread is just BA fans going "we are special and we demand special rules like we have always received for no reason other than GW put us in a separate book in 2E" and the rest of us being like "we don't care, we just want a balanced game, and sometimes that means nobody is special". Neither side cares about the others opinion.

Just like this. I don't mean to speak for him, but I don't think he was literally saying everyone else in the thread but BA were in favor of turning everyone into vanilla. 

 

For whatever reason they focused on us, and we just kept replying, so like another said a little bit up, everyone else got drowned out. I think it's because @Special Officer Doofy's stated collected army is Nurgle forces, and as a Daemon supporter he naturally hates Angels, and because BA are Angels and perfect in every way (well, there is that Flaw but it doesn't count), the Daemons and their minions can't focus. 

 

And because of our perfect nature and raging flaw, we can't let that go. 

 

I'm kind of surprised that you guys didn't ZEAL us up more, though.

[Special Officer Doofy]

6 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

because BA are Angels and perfect in every way (well, there is that Flaw but it doesn't count), the Daemons and their minions can't focus. 

 

And because of our perfect nature and raging flaw, we can't let that go. 

 

Emperors Children are more perfect than blood angels. Change my mind.

[Arkangilos]

1 minute ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Emperors Children are more perfect than blood angels. Change my mind.

 

Two words:

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Special Officer Doofy]

22 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

 

Two words:

 

 

 

 

Are those two words "nipple armor"?

[Arkangilos]

4 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Are those two words "nipple armor"?

Indeed, and those who are perfect appreciate it, because it is perfect. 
 

That may seem circular, but circles are perfect, and so to those that are perfect it makes sense.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Arikel said:

I presented a theory or two which seems dashed by the currently available info from GW. They didn’t mention subfactions at all in the last article which means they either won’t have any, or that they will be considered their own faction, which makes a lie of their statement of army color not mattering.

 

Given the current info, it would seem that the only difference between space marines will be unique characters, and perhaps, bespoke units fielded by specific chapters and their succesors.

 

In this case, one would need to play into the character of their chapter to provide the distinction they seek. This would mean building a list that fits the fighting style and traditional themes of their chapter. A chapter noted for their aggression and preference for close combat could be simulated by taking appropriate units that allow one to close with the enemy quickly, not just jump packers or bikers, but mechanized tacticals/intercessors and heavy support, as well as  weapons to suit that style like flamers , meltas and other close range weapons that can be shot on the move instead of lascannons or missile launchers, all while arming your squad leaders and heroes with the best melee options available because you want them to hit as hard as they themselves would wish too were they real.

 

Once the list is built, a suitable detachment would theoretically provide appropriate stratagems and enhancements that would complement your chosen fighting force’s combat style. It would then be up to you as the player to play the way you would expect your army to fight, without any further specific rules support that benefits or restricts you.
 

One difference to the current form of the game is that you aren’t necessarily locked into that  style choice. You could choose a different detachment at any time to use with your minis, that might be better suited to fighting certain opponents, or in a situation where it simply wouldn’t be tactically sound to use the traditionally preferred strategies/tactics of  your dudes, without any additional drawbacks. Space Marines are supposed to be flexible enough to fight in any situation, after all.

 

Addenda: In response to the fellow some pages back where he mentioned he had never heard of space marine squads switching armaments if needed according to battlefield needs, I do admit that I can’t find any specific passage in my codexes to support that. 
 

I may have been inferring too much from their training, which traditionally goes from scout to dev company to assault company to tactical reserve company to a battleline company, as well as specific crosstraining with bikes and speeders, where it is stated specifically they can use them if needed. 
 

This does, in my opinion, imply that any fully trained marine in a battle company would have at least basic competence with most of the space marine armoury,  and be able to serve in any of the 3 roles should duty require it. In my mind they would equip as needed for the mission at hand, within the limits of what equipment they have available at the time, but as you mention this is not specifically stated anywhere I could find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if subfactions are treated like full fledged factions that doesn’t make paint color relevant in any way.

[Arikel]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Even if subfactions are treated like full fledged factions that doesn’t make paint color relevant in any way.

 I have noticed some posts harping on this earlier but "paint color" is a perfectly fine shorthand for referring to subfactions, even among non-marine factions. There is no need to be pedantic about it. I was really hoping that it would fall to the wayside and we could look at what I was actually saying in my post instead about using the rules and units available to create yourself an army that works for you. Instead here is a short essay on why colour ing matters.

 

Ultras are blue, BA are red, Iron Fists are yellow, Dark Angels are bone/black/green, Sallies are a brighter green, Scars are White and Wolves are grey and so on. Goffs are checkered black and white, Snakebites are brown, Evil Sunz are Red and Bad Moons are yellow and so on. This is all common knowledge and yes there are infinite splinter clans and chapters and septs and warbands and minor ordos that have their own colours but what matters is the colour of the Parent faction, and what people expect when they see it. As a personal  example I've had my army mistaken for BA Death Company when I play bog standard ultra successors for the most part because they are black and red, and got a weird look when I told him I didn't play BA, but an Ultramarine Successor.

 

Essentially if a person plonks down a bunch of blue ultramarines terminators with some supporting units they won't be telling you I'm here to play with my 1rst company army and leave it at that, because that is not a legal army for ultramarines generally, at least in the past (possibly is now with new detachments from AoO). They would need to explain that they are playing Dark angels death company rules to represent their 1rst company ultramarines, which likely will have to include some rules that are not appropriate lorewise for ultras to have because Death Company was the only way to play an all terminator SM force for a very, very long time. Now it is extremely likely their opponent will simply shrug their shoulders and go "That's cool, let's roll some dice" but almost certainly there are some who would be confused or even upset to various degrees, especially when talking on the internet.

 

It may very well be all okey dokey artichokey now, but back when I was active here on 5th there were several flamewars regarding the game legality of using Space wolf, DeathWing, Raven Wing and BA rules to "counts as" your various bike companies, assault companies and what not, even through otherwise there was way to legally run those companies according to the SM codex because it literally did not have rules for them (biker captain as an exception allowed bikes as troops, though). There was a number of people who either would say they would never play an army like that, that they wouldn't allow it in events and even questioned  your very morals and quality as a person for daring to steal "their" rules to play your dudes because you happened to paint them up as Ultramarines, but you wanted an ultramarines army with jet packs or bikes instead.

 

So yeah color does matter, and is tied to faction in a pretty self evident manner. Now let's all let that go and concentrate on the fact that if GW is getting rid of subfaction rules, as is seeming to be a likelier possibility than I ever thought, what are the possibilities for still representing the subfaction identity that you choose, could you do it with the basic info we have on the upcoming ruleset, and whether that would be sufficient for you, or do you absolutely require supporting rules for your subfaction to be able to play it?

Edited April 11, 2023 by Arikel
grammar

[Arkangilos]

6 minutes ago, Arikel said:

As a personal  example I've had my army mistaken for BA Death Company when I play bog standard ultra successors for the most part because they are black and red, and got a weird look when I told him I didn't play BA, but an Ultramarine Successor.

Sounds like you just played with a lame guy. 
 

I’m not going to rehash all this, because there has never been in official rule in any codex (in fact, the rule has always been that it didn’t matter what color they were anytime it has shown up), and because there are whole pages dedicated to this conversation on this very thread and there is even an entire thread dedicated to it. But no, color doesn’t matter. Declared army does.

[Arikel]

1 minute ago, Arkangilos said:

Sounds like you just played with a lame guy. 
 

I’m not going to rehash all this, because there has never been in official rule in any codex (in fact, the rule has always been that it didn’t matter what color they were anytime it has shown up), and because there are whole pages dedicated to this conversation on this very thread and there is even an entire thread dedicated to it. But no, color doesn’t matter. Declared army does.

I agree that it shouldn’t, and buddy didn’t give me any crap about it, just thought it was weird. It’s still fairly common shorthand for the different factions though, at least in GW’s eyes, or they would not have made a point to use it in their article. No more “counts as” declared armies, choose a detachment.

 

Pretty much all I have to say on this matter now, let’s put it to bed and move on as it were.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Arikel said:

 I have noticed some posts harping on this earlier but "paint color" is a perfectly fine shorthand for referring to subfactions, even among non-marine factions. There is no need to be pedantic about it. I was really hoping that it would fall to the wayside and we could look at what I was actually saying in my post instead about using the rules and units available to create yourself an army that works for you. Instead here is a short essay on why colour ing matters.

 

Ultras are blue, BA are red, Iron Fists are yellow, Dark Angels are bone/black/green, Sallies are a brighter green, Scars are White and Wolves are grey and so on. Goffs are checkered black and white, Snakebites are brown, Evil Sunz are Red and Bad Moons are yellow and so on. This is all common knowledge and yes there are infinite splinter clans and chapters and septs and warbands and minor ordos that have their own colours but what matters is the colour of the Parent faction, and what people expect when they see it. As a personal  example I've had my army mistaken for BA Death Company when I play bog standard ultra successors for the most part because they are black and red, and got a weird look when I told him I didn't play BA, but an Ultramarine Successor.

 

Essentially if a person plonks down a bunch of blue ultramarines terminators with some supporting units they won't be telling you I'm here to play with my 1rst company army and leave it at that, because that is not a legal army for ultramarines generally, at least in the past (possibly is now with new detachments from AoO). They would need to explain that they are playing Dark angels death company rules to represent their 1rst company ultramarines, which likely will have to include some rules that are not appropriate lorewise for ultras to have because Death Company was the only way to play an all terminator SM force for a very, very long time. Now it is extremely likely their opponent will simply shrug their shoulders and go "That's cool, let's roll some dice" but almost certainly there are some who would be confused or even upset to various degrees, especially when talking on the internet.

 

It may very well be all okey dokey artichokey now, but back when I was active here on 5th there were several flamewars regarding the game legality of using Space wolf, DeathWing, Raven Wing and BA rules to "counts as" your various bike companies, assault companies and what not, even through otherwise there was way to legally run those companies according to the SM codex because it literally did not have rules for them (biker captain as an exception allowed bikes as troops, though). There was a number of people who either would say they would never play an army like that, that they wouldn't allow it in events and even questioned  your very morals and quality as a person for daring to steal "their" rules to play your dudes because you happened to paint them up as Ultramarines, but you wanted an ultramarines army with jet packs or bikes instead.

 

So yeah color does matter, and is tied to faction in a pretty self evident manner. Now let's all let that go and concentrate on the fact that if GW is getting rid of subfaction rules, as is seeming to be a likelier possibility than I ever thought, what are the possibilities for still representing the subfaction identity that you choose, could you do it with the basic info we have on the upcoming ruleset, and whether that would be sufficient for you, or do you absolutely require supporting rules for your subfaction to be able to play it?

Doesn’t matter if you got a weird look.

paint scheme is irrelevant to rules.

 

and if paint color is just code for subfaction no one should want that to be irrelevant because it destroy the game.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Arikel]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Doesn’t matter if you got a weird look.

paint scheme is irrelevant to rules.

Agreed. So do you have anything relevant to say or we  just gonna do the locomotion all day frater?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Arikel said:

Agreed. So do you have anything relevant to say or we  just gonna do the locomotion all day frater?

You’re the one who wrote a whole essay about paint colors and how someone gave you a funny look that one time.

[Nuriel-666]

14 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Doesn’t matter if you got a weird look.

paint scheme is irrelevant to rules.

 

and if paint color is just code for subfaction no one should want that to be irrelevant because it destroy the game.

 

It's more of a case of immersion, I suppose. When one sees red space marines with wings he's gonna assume that you play as Blood Angels than Salamanders successor Chapters from 15th Founding - altough it is perfectly possibile and lore-friendly.