The importance of subfaction variation

[Arkangilos]

17 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

their rules won't be more shiny and more special than everyone else?

This isn’t about models. It is about the lore. You keep getting our arguments wrong. And it isn’t about making them “more special”, it’s about making them unique. BA should have rules to reflect the Red Thirst. SW should have rules to reflect their lore. UM should have rules to reflect their lore. It is the same with the Chaos Legions. I have no idea where you got models from. If this was about model support, we would be talking about special units, not special rules. We could have the most absolute generic models like in third edition, and I would still be talking about how the rules should be unique.
 

17 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

GW are putting the game first

Oh really? I remember them putting the game first in 3rd edition, too. And guess what, the rules had flavor. Same with fourth edition. Are you saying that flavor rules takes away from the game? 
No, this isn’t about putting the game first. It is about putting tournament gaming first.

 

17 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Why can't we be happy that we all get nice things?

Because you are talking about taking away those nice things. The nice thing about Blood Angels is that they aren’t UM. The nice thing about UM is that they aren’t SW. 

All of those chapters had or should have unique rules to make them distinct. BA get the Red Thirst. 

Do you think World Eaters should have no differences to the Black Legion? 

17 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Be happy that the opponent won't be punished or rewarded arbitrarily for the choice of paints they used when they started the hobby.

Stop with this nonsense. We have said countless times NO ONE cares about what COLOR the paint is. NO ONE ever has. On the off chance that there is someone that does, HE ISNT WORTH PLAYING AGAINST because he is an idiot. 
This isn’t real, it’s a made up argument to try and win points for something that doesn’t happen.

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Scribe]

29 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Why can't we be happy that we all get nice things?

 

Because we are losing things. :D

[Crimson Longinus]

There still will be a lot* of different detachments that cater to different playstyles. You still will be able to choose rules that will reflect the lore. If you don't care whether your opponent matches their rules and paint in the manner you approve, what on Earth is the issue?

 

In any case, apparently we will know more about faction rules tomorrow.

 

* (It's marines, they'll get a ton of attention.)

[Loishy]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes.

 

Crusade may as well not exist for many (most?) of us.

 
Why ? Because you didn’t like this game mode ? Or because you haven’t found people to play it ? 

With power level gone and the fact you may not be paying for weapon option anymore (if it is like the end of the 9th) there won’t be  much diference between match play and crusade. Just in crusade, there will be Warlord traits, relics, faction rules etc… 
If GW communicates well on this topic, I really think that crusade could become the classic or casual game mode and match play reserved for tournaments. But for that, they must not suggest that crusade is unbalance. Otherwise we know how it will end… 

Here in France, match play is called “jeux égal” literally “equal games”. So for most players, if you are not playing match play, it’s unbalanced. Despite the fact that the chapter approved and the Balance dataslate during the 9th showed that match play also has points of imbalance. And this killed all other game modes. 

From my perspective, if crusade games become the norm, the 10th could be a perfect fit for people who want to keep subfaction variations. And match play will be reserved for people who want to know who is the best marine/eldar/ork etc…  general. All players will only have their list building skill and tactical skills to win. No shiny faction bonus, they limit themselves to the basic faction.  Players will do not fitting for the fluff in this kind of game mode.  

[Arkangilos]

15 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

If you don't care whether your opponent matches their rules and paint in the manner you approve

Again, not real. I have yet to see a rule in any codex or in any rule book in every single edition that says only red painted models can use the Blood Angel rules. I have yet to see any rule that says any model that uses the Black Templar rules has to be painted black. 
 

Quote the rule you keep citing.

 

Why is it so difficult for you to get it through your head that paint scheme has nothing and has always had nothing to do with the chapter rules?

 

15 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

There still will be a lot* of different detachments that cater to different playstyles.

Because BA and IF both use codex formations. BA don’t have more assault squads than the UM. They have the exact same company structure. They use the exact same Demi-company detachments.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Crimson Longinus]

1 minute ago, Arkangilos said:

Again, not real. I have yet to see a rule in any codex or in any rule book in every single edition that says only red painted models can use the Blood Angel rules. I have yet to see any rule that says any model that uses the Black Templar rules has to be painted black. 
 

Quote the rule you keep citing.

 

There is no such rule, except in some tournament packs. There is a convention, strength of which varies from place to place. 

 

But again, if you don't care how your opponent builds their army, what's the issue with the (assumed) new rules. You choose the detachment that given you the rules you feel your army should have lore-wise. Done.

 

1 minute ago, Arkangilos said:

Because BA and IF both use codex formations. BA don’t have more assault squads than the UM. They have the exact same company structure. They use the exact same Demi-company detachments.

 

So? At least I don't infer from the (admittedly sparse) previews of the army construction that detachments would force you to take specific units. Things like "fast attack" and "heavy support" are gone. 

[Arkangilos]

6 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

But again, if you don't care how your opponent builds their army, what's the issue with the (assumed) new rules. You choose the detachment that given you the rules you feel your army should have lore-wise. Done.

Because if someone chooses a world eater army, no matter how it is painted, it should have rules to reflect a world eater army. 
 

If someone chooses a Blood Angel chapter (as in BA or successor), it should have rules to reflect that it is of the genetic line of the BA. 
 

If someone chooses a space wolf army, it should have rules to reflect the fact that it is a Space Wolf. 
 

You may personally believe all chaos marines are chaos marines and that is it. You may personally believe that all space marines are “just” space marines. But they are not. There are 8 different genetic codes that make them different. 

6 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

There is no such rule, except in some tournament packs.

Prove it. And if that is the case then those tournament packs are stupid and a problem, and not reflective of the game. It is also another reason to hate tournaments if it is true. Because a few of the tournaments may do that everyone else is punished? Yeah, no thanks. Keep your stupid tournament rules to yourself. Don’t force it on everyone else.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Crimson Longinus]

3 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Because if someone chooses a world eater army, no matter how it is painted, it should have rules to reflect a world eater army. 
 

If someone chooses a Blood Angel chapter (as in BA or successor), it should have rules to reflect that it is of the genetic line of the BA. 
 

If someone chooses a space wolf army, it should have rules to reflect the fact that it is a Space Wolf. 
 

You may personally believe all chaos marines are chaos marines and that is it. You may personally believe that all space marines are “just” space marines. But they are not. There are 8 different genetic codes that make them different. 

 

But you can still choose the lore appropriate rules. What you seem to want is that everyone is forced to do so. Except then you say you don't care how your opponent builds their army... So I remain puzzled what's the issue is. 

 

Let's use examples. You play Blood Angels, you choose Sanguine Attack Wing detachment, which gives you "Ferocious Assault" special rule as well as access to some appropriate relics, warlord traits and stratagems. What's the problem with this? I seriously don't get it. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Prove it. And if that is the case then those tournament packs are stupid and a problem, and not reflective of the game.

 

It was at least in some of GW's Warhammer World tournament packs. I can't be arsed to find it, it's fine if you don't believe me.

[Arkangilos]

6 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

But you can still choose the lore appropriate rules. What you seem to want is that everyone is forced to do so

I’m sorry, what? No one is forced to pick an army. What I am asking is that if someone picks an army it has rules to reflect it is the army you chose.

 

How is me that wanting chapter/legion traits forcing people to pick that chapter?

Edited April 4, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

But you can still choose the lore appropriate rules. What you seem to want is that everyone is forced to do so. Except then you say you don't care how your opponent builds their army... So I remain puzzled what's the issue is. 

 

The issue is how one views the various marine types.

 

If I want to play World Eaters, I want to get some bonus in assault. Even if I take Havocs, Marines with Bolters, and Predators, because its what World Eaters are.

 

[Orange Knight]

If there was a guarantee that all chapters will receive equal support and be equally strong then I will concede that GW are wrong to consolidate this way.

 

But unfortunately this will not be the case.

 

And no one should be punished for picking a colour.

 

 

[Arkangilos]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

 

And no one should be punished for picking a colour.

Cite one time someone has been punished for color. 
 

Cite a single rule in any of the rule books that say your color forces you into set rules. 
 

You can’t, and you refuse to address the fact that this doesn’t happen.

[Crimson Longinus]

3 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I’m sorry, what? No one is forced to pick an army. What I am asking is that if someone picks an army it has rules to reflect it is the army you chose.

 

How is me that wanting chapter traits forcing people to pick that chapter?

 

So you actually care how your opponent models and chooses rules for their army? Why is me playing marines painted as Blood Angels using Ultramarines rules a problem for you? And didn't you just lambast tournament packs that forbade such things? I really am not following you at all.

 

 

[gaurdian31]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

If there was a guarantee that all chapters will receive equal support and be equally strong then I will concede that GW are wrong to consolidate this way.

 

But unfortunately this will not be the case.

 

And no one should be punished for picking a colour.

 

 

No one is punished for choosing a color. That's what people are trying to get across. My guys are brown and tan, no founding chapter has that color scheme and I am not punished by the current or future rules for choosing that color scheme.

[Crimson Longinus]

6 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

The issue is how one views the various marine types.

 

If I want to play World Eaters, I want to get some bonus in assault. Even if I take Havocs, Marines with Bolters, and Predators, because its what World Eaters are.

 

 

So choose a detachment that has bonus for assault! Done!

 

(Now CSM has at least in current edition worked differently than the loyalist and had fully separate codices, and that will probably remain the case.)

 

 

[Arkangilos]

22 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

o you actually care how your opponent models and chooses rules for their army? Why is me playing marines painted as Blood Angels using Ultramarines rules a problem for you? And didn't you just lambast tournament packs that forbade such things? I really am not following you at all.

Geneseed isn’t tied to a color scheme, it is tied to a primarch. There are different colored sons of Sanguinius.

 

Space marines have different genetic traits than others because they have different primarchs. BA and their successors suffer from the red thirst, which greatly effects how they fight. It doesn’t matter what color their armor is. What matters is how heir geneseed. Someone who picks an army based on the geneseed of Sanguinius should have rules to reflect it.

19 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

28 minutes ago, Scribe said:

So choose a detachment that has bonus for assault! Done!

Formations should not dictate whether your geneseed works or doesn’t.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Tyriks
Don't be rude

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

So choose a detachment that has bonus for assault! Done!

 

(Now CSM has at least in current edition worked differently than the loyalist and had fully separate codices, and that will probably remain the case.)

 

 

 

You are missing the layer upon which this should be taking place.

 

I dont want to play World Eaters if and only if I select the appropriate Special Character, and Detachment.

 

I want to play World Eaters (+1 Str +1 Attack on Charge or whatever it is today) if I have.

 

A normal CSM Lord.

Havocs x 3

CSM with Bolters.

 

Still World Eaters, still with a bonus on Assault.

[Crimson Longinus]

So you do have a problem with someone else playing Blood Angels using Ultramarine rules? 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Tyriks
removed quote

[Orange Knight]

6 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Cite one time someone has been punished for color. 
 

Cite a single rule in any of the rule books that say your color forces you into set rules. 
 

You can’t, and you refuse to address the fact that this doesn’t happen.

 

I picked Yellow and have been punished.

 

My Imperial Fists have been garbage for the last 3 years. Meanwhile Dark Angels received 3 updates in that same time frame, and are currently the top performing army.

 

And if you think that yellow doesn't mean I should play Imperial Fists, then nothing that GW have proposed should be opposed by that same logic. Any rules for any colour, yes?

 

That's great, because I feel the same way - All chapters should be able to use all detachments and gain the full spectrum of rule bonuses.

[Crimson Longinus]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

 

You are missing the layer upon which this should be taking place.

 

I dont want to play World Eaters if and only if I select the appropriate Special Character, and Detachment.

 

I want to play World Eaters (+1 Str +1 Attack on Charge or whatever it is today) if I have.

 

A normal CSM Lord.

Havocs x 3

CSM with Bolters.

 

Still World Eaters, still with a bonus on Assault.

 

I see no reason why you couldn't do this. I see no indication that detachments are tied to unit selection. 

[Arkangilos]

Just now, Crimson Longinus said:

So you do have a problem with someone else playing Blood Angels using Ultramarine rules? 

If I were playing a WW2 game, I would expect an American army to use American rules, regardless of what color their uniform is. I would expect a Russian army to use Russian rules no matter what color their uniforms are.

 

Are you fine with someone using Tyrannid rules instead of UM rules if they declared they are playing UM?

If you declare your army, you should use the rules of the army you declared.

[DesuVult]

2 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

You are missing the layer upon which this should be taking place.

 

I dont want to play World Eaters if and only if I select the appropriate Special Character, and Detachment.

 

I want to play World Eaters (+1 Str +1 Attack on Charge or whatever it is today) if I have.

 

A normal CSM Lord.

Havocs x 3

CSM with Bolters.

 

Still World Eaters, still with a bonus on Assault.

"Or whatever it is today"

 

I feel this is part of the disconnect.  It is rather arbitrary and is going to change.  Rules don't always properly reflect an army.  Being utterly bound to the rules defining your army is not how I see 40k and the push foe rhat is part of the problem in 40k.

[Orange Knight]

Let's not forget that a large part of 10th is focused around streamlining.

 

This means that the distinctions between chapters and the sheer volume of rules was always going to be reduced.

 

As long as the various detachments provide a method of getting play variation that reflects chapter lore, then GW will have succeeded in their objective and kept the theme generally intact for those that want it.

 

[DesuVult]

1 minute ago, Arkangilos said:

If I were playing a WW2 game, I would expect an American army to use American rules, regardless of what color their uniform is. I would expect a Russian army to use Russian rules no matter what color their uniforms are.

 

Are you fine with someone using Tyrannid rules instead of UM rules if they declared they are playing UM?

If you declare your army, you should use the rules of the army you declared.

You seem to place a much larger gap between flavors of marines than I feel there is.  If you were playing a WW2 game and someone has painted late war Germans how would you feel about them using early war rules?

 

UM and tyranids don't have comparable models.  What is the point of this comparison?

[Arkangilos]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I picked Yellow and have been punished.

Did you pick yellow or Imperial Fist?

 

Because Imperial Fists would be punished regardless of what color they are.

 

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

And if you think that yellow doesn't mean I should play Imperial Fists, then nothing that GW have proposed should be opposed by that same logic. Any rules for any colour, yes?

Not a single rule says that only Yellow chapters have to pick Imperial Fist rules. Lamenters are yellow, yet use BA rules because they are a BA successor.

 

Rules have never been tied to color. They are tied to the army you chose. Lamenters have BA rules because they have the BA geneseed.