The importance of subfaction variation

[Arkangilos]

7 minutes ago, Arbedark said:

How needlessly antagonistic you're being. Asking for a citation for BT being aggressive

I’m not being antagonistic. He made a claim that it is because of their geneseed. I asked for a citation that it is because of their geneseed.

 

He asked me for citations before, and I provided citations from multiple codices to support my argument. Asking for citations is not antagonizing anyone.

 

If he can provide evidence that they are aggressive and blood thirsty on the charge because their geneseed causes a blood thirsty aggression that greatly enhances their physical combat, I will concede the point. That is how it works. 
 

At least that is how it works for me. When someone provides proof I concede to it. He has yet to even acknowledge the citations I provided at his request.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Special Officer Doofy]

15 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I’m not arguing with everyone. @Inquisitor_Lensoven@penitent_city, @Scribeand I all agree with each other. There are several others who all agree. Literally this thread is @Inquisitor_Lensovensaying we should maintain subfaction support and distinctiveness and you and @DesuVultarguing against it.

 

This thread got locked before because @DesuVultaccused me (who actually quoted the codices), of ignoring fluff, and me responding negatively to slander.

 

That's weird, what about all the posts of your back and fourth with @Inquisitor_Lensoven? Want me to quote them all or can you just check the last few pages?

 

For the record, I don't want subfaction support to go away. I still think there should be a form of "chapter trait" if you will. It's just all the other stuff that gets bonkers (strats, relics, WLT, secondaries, and then additional rules like inner circle that other chapters don't get). It's also not the direction GW is heading though by rolling back in DA, SW, BA into the main codex and then saying stuff will be more Detatchment based. And I'm not even saying rolling them back into the codex was the right idea, kinda weird after pulling Legions out of the chaos codex (the cult ones). I'm just not fighting the idea of trying something else to create more balance so you don't have an almost 20% win rate disparity between subfactions that share 90-100% of the same units.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Arkangilos]

24 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

That's weird, what about all the posts of your back and fourth with @Inquisitor_Lensoven? Want me to quote them all or can you just check the last few pages?

@Inquisitor_Lensovenargued against me in favor of something we agreed on. Why he chose to argue the point I made against someone else despite agreeing on it the day before is beyond me. But I said the entire time that I wasn’t disagreeing with him, and that I was confused why he was arguing. 
We can ask him if he disagrees with me, though?

@Inquisitor_Lensoven Do you agree with me, or disagree with me, that the BA are codex compliant?

Do you agree with me, or disagree with me, that we should be able to take any detachment that any codex compliant chapter can take and still have the rule that reflects the red thirst? 

Out of curiosity, do people here not read what replies are linked to? 

@Inquisitor_Lensovenwas having a conversation about x with person a. I was having a conversation about y with person b.

 

We both agree that x and y are true. He then misunderstood something I said, and then when I clarified he said it wasn’t relevant to conversation x (which is true), but what he didn’t understand is that it was relevant to conversation y, which is why it was brought up in the first place. So it wasn’t an argument between us, it was a misunderstanding and then us talking past each other.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Special Officer Doofy]

Marines are the perfect example of subfactions being so unfair. Whoever wrote the dark angel supplement must have never read the imperial fist one and thought "yeah these are balanced together". DA, SW, BA pretty much get all the vanilla toys AND their own unique models/units and rules. The cult Legions for chaos have even less unit selection than the main chaos codex and make sacrifices to get their bespoken units and rules.

 

32 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Why? Why should every army be perfectly balanced with each other to the point that they lose their distinctiveness?

 

I don't want "perfect" balance. I want balance. And I'm willing to sacrifice some snowflakes to get there.

 

32 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Sure, but if you are looking for perfect balance, you can forget it, and play HH with stock, prebuilt forces instead with no legion traits.

 

My whole gaming group and I have zero desire to play bolter porn the game. It is literally the worst parts of the hobby for me. Marine centered, old worse rules with templates, AV and facings, and supported by the even more expensive harder to get FW (which used to be all resin, at least they are finally going plastic).

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Then why does the codex explicitly mention what I am saying? It specially calls out that the BA don’t have any more assault squads than the codex allows, but when a guy in the Assault Squad dies they are more likely to find a replacement and fill it.

No where in the lore does it just have devastators equipping themselves like assault squads. No where.

 

an analogue would be this:

 

A light infantry company has 3-4 platoons in it. 
a platoon has 3 rifle squads and a weapons squad.

 

All of us were trained how to operate in the weapons squad, but that doesn’t mean we would all of a sudden decide to all arm ourselves as weapons squads. True, we can all, at a moments notice, take up the 240 and act as the fire support. But if we need more fire support, we don’t just all become weapon w aid because that isn’t the doctrine. 

or it could be analogous to 
a DDG has 8 M2s, 8 M240s, 2 mk19s

most ships will have their CSW hard points set up as 3x3 port and starboard, .50s on the bow, and missile deck, and 240s on the bridge wings. however if a captain, or ATWO, or weapons officer has a preference it can be 4x4 .50s or 2 .50s 2 240s or 3x3 .50s and 1 mk19.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

My whole gaming group and I have zero desire to play bolter porn the game. It is literally the worst parts of the hobby for me. Marine centered, old worse rules with templates, AV and facings, and supported by the even more expensive harder to get FW (which used to be all resin, at least they are finally going plastic).

 

I'm afraid we may have to just walk away. I'd still play HH over the dumpster fire that is 40K so we may be approaching the game from a different place all together. :)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Unfortunately the latest Black Templar supplament was never released as a PDF, so I don't have a copy I can quote from. The last accessible PDF released by GW was Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury, so I've ripped some text from there for your consideration:

 

----------

 

The battle-brothers of the Black Templars stand apart from their fellow Space Marines, for they accept the divinity of the God-Emperor as holy truth. Pious, aggressive warrior-knights, they roam across the galaxy in great crusade fleets, laying waste to aliens and heretics wherever they are found. 

One of the Imperial Fists’ first successor Chapters, the Black Templars have since become one of the largest and most feared Space Marine Chapters. The first High Marshal of the Black Templars – the legendary Sigismund – refused to adhere to the Codex Astartes, seeing the foundational treatise written by Roboute Guilliman as an insult to the teachings of his own Primarch, Rogal Dorn. Instead, he led his warriors into the depths of space, taking the war directly to the enemies of the Imperium. In the centuries since, the Chapter has diverted even further from the tenets of the Adeptus Astartes.

Embracing their faith and acknowledging the God-Emperor’s divinity, the Black Templars have developed a fanatical zealotry and aggressiveness. This deviation from orthodoxy disturbs many of their fellow Space Marine Chapters, though the Black Templars’ dedication to eradicating the enemies of Humanity cannot be questioned. 

The Black Templars are a fleet- based Chapter and claim no single home world as their own. Instead, their enormous armadas can be found across the galaxy. The Black Templars refuse to adhere to the limit of one thousand Space Marines per Chapter, set out in the Codex Astartes. Each of their crusades is comprised of thousands of Space Marines, though the current High Marshal, Helbrecht, maintains overall authority from the deck of his battle barge, the Eternal Crusader. 

As befits the heirs of the legendary swordsman Sigismund, the Black Templars are specialists in the white-hot fury of close combat. They launch themselves upon the enemy with a merciless, focused aggression, bellowing battle-oaths as they carve their foes apart. They carry a particularly intense hatred for xenos witchkin and rogue psykers, and will purge these hated foes wherever they are found. 

 

----------

 

Notice how, from the very start, these were the angry boys of the Imperial Fists. Then take note of the language used like 'develop,' to show how over thousands of years this has been reinforced and enhanced. It doesn't say outright that their Genes have mutated to create hate-filled zealots, but it certainly states that the most aggressive members of a chapter departed it and proceeded to enhance those behaviors over a very long period of time until they mysteriously lost the ability to produce psychers. That, and they can manifest the Emperor's Champion, which is something no other chapter can do. Perhaps a unique genetic echo of Sigismund enduring through the bloodline, or perhaps a simple manifestation of faith, but who's to say.

 

Unfortunately the latest Black Templar supplament was never released as a PDF, so I don't have a copy I can quote from. The last accessible PDF released by GW was Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury, so I've ripped some text from there for your consideration:

 

----------

 

The battle-brothers of the Black Templars stand apart from their fellow Space Marines, for they accept the divinity of the God-Emperor as holy truth. Pious, aggressive warrior-knights, they roam across the galaxy in great crusade fleets, laying waste to aliens and heretics wherever they are found. 

One of the Imperial Fists’ first successor Chapters, the Black Templars have since become one of the largest and most feared Space Marine Chapters. The first High Marshal of the Black Templars – the legendary Sigismund – refused to adhere to the Codex Astartes, seeing the foundational treatise written by Roboute Guilliman as an insult to the teachings of his own Primarch, Rogal Dorn. Instead, he led his warriors into the depths of space, taking the war directly to the enemies of the Imperium. In the centuries since, the Chapter has diverted even further from the tenets of the Adeptus Astartes.

Embracing their faith and acknowledging the God-Emperor’s divinity, the Black Templars have developed a fanatical zealotry and aggressiveness. This deviation from orthodoxy disturbs many of their fellow Space Marine Chapters, though the Black Templars’ dedication to eradicating the enemies of Humanity cannot be questioned. 

The Black Templars are a fleet- based Chapter and claim no single home world as their own. Instead, their enormous armadas can be found across the galaxy. The Black Templars refuse to adhere to the limit of one thousand Space Marines per Chapter, set out in the Codex Astartes. Each of their crusades is comprised of thousands of Space Marines, though the current High Marshal, Helbrecht, maintains overall authority from the deck of his battle barge, the Eternal Crusader. 

As befits the heirs of the legendary swordsman Sigismund, the Black Templars are specialists in the white-hot fury of close combat. They launch themselves upon the enemy with a merciless, focused aggression, bellowing battle-oaths as they carve their foes apart. They carry a particularly intense hatred for xenos witchkin and rogue psykers, and will purge these hated foes wherever they are found. 

 

----------

 

Notice how, from the very start, these were the angry boys of the Imperial Fists. Then take note of the language used like 'develop,' to show how over thousands of years this has been reinforced and enhanced. It doesn't say outright that their Genes have mutated to create hate-filled zealots, but it certainly states that the most aggressive members of a chapter departed it and proceeded to enhance those behaviors over a very long period of time until they mysteriously lost the ability to produce psychers. That, and they can manifest the Emperor's Champion, which is something no other chapter can do. Perhaps a unique genetic echo of Sigismund enduring through the bloodline, or perhaps a simple manifestation of faith, but who's to say.

 

Is that enough homework to prove that I'm a real BT who knows my chapter and its lore? Because we are definitely in the running for 'chapter with the right to +1S on the charge.'

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Just now, Scribe said:

 

I'm afraid we may have to just walk away. I'd still play HH over the dumpster fire that is 40K so we may be approaching the game from a different place all together. :)

 

Dumpster fire is still doing better than slightly more expensive less successful dumpster fire the prequel, so we are approaching from a complete different place all together. :)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

27 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

That's weird, what about all the posts of your back and fourth with @Inquisitor_Lensoven? Want me to quote them all or can you just check the last few pages?

 

For the record, I don't want subfaction support to go away. I still think there should be a form of "chapter trait" if you will. It's just all the other stuff that gets bonkers (strats, relics, WLT, secondaries, and then additional rules like inner circle that other chapters don't get). It's also not the direction GW is heading though by rolling back in DA, SW, BA into the main codex and then saying stuff will be more Detatchment based. And I'm not even saying rolling them back into the codex was the right idea, kinda weird after pulling Legions out of the chaos codex (the cult ones). I'm just not fighting the idea of trying something else to create more balance so you don't have an almost 20% win rate disparity between subfactions that share 90-100% of the same units.

it's really hard to say what 'direction' GW is going based on if the big 4 use the main codex with supplements, or have their own individual codex. GW has been going back and forth on this regularly. 2nd we had AoD our own combined codex. 3rd we had a supplement, then we had a PDF/WD article, then we had another codex then i was gone for years, then I came back BA had their own codex, and now we have a supplement again. based on my experience, with the game 10th should have us in our own codex again.

[Special Officer Doofy]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

it's really hard to say what 'direction' GW is going based on if the big 4 use the main codex with supplements, or have their own individual codex. GW has been going back and forth on this regularly. 2nd we had AoD our own combined codex. 3rd we had a supplement, then we had a PDF/WD article, then we had another codex then i was gone for years, then I came back BA had their own codex, and now we have a supplement again. based on my experience, with the game 10th should have us in our own codex again.

 

Seperating them, and thus giving them their own Detatchments with their "special" rules and what not would sure solve alot of issues people in this thread are not happy about. Will GW do it though? I don't know. Index release would be the easiest time to do it though.

[Arkangilos]

@Marshal Valkenhaynnot really. It shows they should have special rules for close combat, sure. But what I was asking for wasn’t proof that they were zealous and charged zealously into close combat. What I asked for was lore proof that they 1) had a geneseed that made them stronger and faster in close combat above their peers.

 

The claim was: their geneseed causes x.

That is what I was asking for citations for.

 

Out of curiosity, what was the special trait they had before? Did they used to get +1 S on charge, or furious charge or anything? If so, then I would say they should keep it. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

It doesn't look like either side is going to budge on their position(s), and we also don't even know the full (or even partial?) rules yet, so let's all take a chill pill for a bit until we have new information to "debate" further.

[Scribe]

16 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Dumpster fire is still doing better than slightly more expensive less successful dumpster fire the prequel, so we are approaching from a complete different place all together. :)

 

I mean 9th, is going to get fired into the sun in a few months from a rules set perspective I dont now that I hitch my wagon to 9th in any version of reality.

[Arkangilos]

4 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Seperating them, and thus giving them their own Detatchments with their "special" rules and what not would sure solve alot of issues people in this thread are not happy about. Will GW do it though? I don't know. Index release would be the easiest time to do it though.

Honestly with how simplified it’s going it would be a perfect time for a codex: sons of primarch x.

 

Each one gets its own faction rule to reflect the geneseed, and then you can have the subfaction switch outs for each of the successors. So the sons of Dorn could be Stubborn, then have the various subfaction stuff for BT, CF, etc. 

 

Sons of Sanguinius would have the red thirst, and then subfaction rules for FT, BD, etc. 

Again because the stuff is one page each it isn’t like it won’t take up a lot of space or require a lot.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

31 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

@Marshal Valkenhaynnot really. It shows they should have special rules for close combat, sure. But what I was asking for wasn’t proof that they were zealous and charged zealously into close combat. What I asked for was lore proof that they 1) had a geneseed that made them stronger and faster in close combat above their peers.

 

The claim was: their geneseed causes x.

That is what I was asking for citations for.

 

Out of curiosity, what was the special trait they had before? Did they used to get +1 S on charge, or furious charge or anything? If so, then I would say they should keep it. 

 

They might have gotten furious charge in 7th, I don't actually remember. Lately it's been reroll charges and 5+ FNP vs mortals. Also 6+ to hit vs non vehicle auto wounds, though I think we're all ready for that rule to go away.

 

That rule was replaced with the vows again in 9th, which has 6+ to hit auto wounds as one, reroll hits of 1 vs psychers and a bonus move in turn 1, 5+ invuln and can't be wounded on worse than 3+, or +1 attack and always in assault doctrine for melee but no shock assault.

 

In short, BT rules are always sort of a mess because they're either sidelined to the point they're almost non existent, or made up of several parts.

[Orange Knight]

Imagine this situation:

 

The next codex comes out and it has a dozen detachments, each one with a blurb.

 

"The Gladius Strike Force is the preferred method of waging war for the venerable Ultramarines and their successors"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Ultramarine doctrines.

 

 

"The Hammer of Wrath Strike Force is am aggressive formation favoured by the Sons of Baal"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Blood Angels doctrines.

 

 

"The Forged-in-Iron Strike Force is a defensive formation focusing on vehicles, typically favoured by the Sons of Medusa"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Iron Hands doctrines.

 

So on and so forth.

 

 

 

[Arkangilos]

50 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Imagine this situation:

 

The next codex comes out and it has a dozen detachments, each one with a blurb.

 

"The Gladius Strike Force is the preferred method of waging war for the venerable Ultramarines and their successors"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Ultramarine doctrines.

 

 

"The Hammer of Wrath Strike Force is am aggressive formation favoured by the Sons of Baal"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Blood Angels doctrines.

 

 

"The Forged-in-Iron Strike Force is a defensive formation focusing on vehicles, typically favoured by the Sons of Medusa"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Iron Hands doctrines.

 

So on and so forth.

 

 

 

Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

[Scribe]

55 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Imagine this situation:

 

The next codex comes out and it has a dozen detachments, each one with a blurb.

 

"The Gladius Strike Force is the preferred method of waging war for the venerable Ultramarines and their successors"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Ultramarine doctrines.

 

 

"The Hammer of Wrath Strike Force is am aggressive formation favoured by the Sons of Baal"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Blood Angels doctrines.

 

 

"The Forged-in-Iron Strike Force is a defensive formation focusing on vehicles, typically favoured by the Sons of Medusa"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Iron Hands doctrines.

 

So on and so forth.

 

Completely misses the point that there is a fundamental difference between a Blood Angel, and an Iron Hand.

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

 

I think it would be better than what we have now. 

 

You have the freedom to make a list as thematic as you could want, and people have the freedom to experience the Full spectrum of rules and are never arbitrarily punished for their painting choices.

 

9 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Completely misses the point that there is a fundamental difference between a Blood Angel, and an Iron Hand.

 

It doesn't miss any point because you still have all the freedom to play your army the way you want In keeping with the lore.

 

The opposition to this is gatekeeping based on colour. GW did specifically point out that colour will very rarely play a part in what can be accessed going forward. Giving more to everyone is not taking something away from anyone. This is not a zero sum game situation. 

[Arkangilos]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

You have the freedom to make a list as thematic as you could want, and people have the freedom to experience the Full spectrum of rules and are never arbitrarily punished for their painting choices.

How many times do we have to say it isn’t about paint scheme? There are official green colored Blood Angel Successors. 
 

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

You have the freedom to make a list as thematic as you could wan

Ah yes, so thematic that in order to play the BA I cannot take any formation except the one you dictate, despite that being against the lore for them.

 

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The opposition to this is gatekeeping based on colour.

There. Are. Official. Blue. Blood. Angel. Successors.

 

There are also yellow ones.

 

Color has nothing to do with it. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Orange Knight]

You take whatever you want to take.

 

These aren't formations, these are detachments. You actually have more freedom in unit selection in 10th than you have in 9th so that is a moot point.

 

So you say colour has nothing to do with it. What about transfers? What if the colour and transfers match a specific chapter? Do you now order the individual to only use a small selection of rules?

[Arkangilos]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

You take whatever you want to take.

 

These aren't formations, these are detachments. You actually have more freedom in unit selection in 10th than you have in 9th so that is a moot point.

1) We don’t know exactly if that is the case.

2) You literally said:

“The next codex comes out and it has a dozen detachments, each one with a blurb.

 

"The Gladius Strike Force is the preferred method of waging war for the venerable Ultramarines and their successors"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Ultramarine doctrines.

 

 

"The Hammer of Wrath Strike Force is am aggressive formation favoured by the Sons of Baal"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Blood Angels doctrines.

 

 

"The Forged-in-Iron Strike Force is a defensive formation focusing on vehicles, typically favoured by the Sons of Medusa"

 

Various bonuses are unlocked that resemble Iron Hands doctrines.”

 

Which are formations. 

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

So you say colour has nothing to do with it. What about transfers? What if the colour and transfers match a specific chapter? Do you now order the individual to only use a small selection of rules?

Did you do it because you want to play Imperial Fists, or because you wanted a BA successor chapter that was yellow and had fists?

 

If you choose to play IF, then you should play Imperial Fists. If you chose The Fists of Sanguinius, and you have lore behind them as being BA successors, and you use BA units, and you have a DC, and you have other BA successor things, then you should get rules to reflect the fact that you are a BA successor.

[Scribe]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The opposition to this is gatekeeping based on colour. GW did specifically point out that colour will very rarely play a part in what can be accessed going forward. Giving more to everyone is not taking something away from anyone. This is not a zero sum game situation. 

 

That may be the OPPOSITE, but there is another option.

 

Nobody is saying you cannot have count as. Nobody at all. Nobody is saying your colour scheme determines your rules.

 

The point is, there would be a key word "Blood Angel" and it would have specific rules, and it would have those rules regardless of 'detachment' assuming detachment is like the Formations/Detachments of the past.

 

It is seriously not this complicated.

[chapter master 454]

I mean...I need to point out that this is from the stand-point in relation to GW's stance? Not anyone's local scene.

 

Yes, you can COUNTS AS your ultramarines as Iron Hands in local settings but...the BIG BUT I want to talk about:

 

"Those are some strange looking Iron Hands. When did they become blue?"

There is a distinct level of actual importance in game balance to discuss in terms of faction access to certain things. With other factions is wasn't as big a deal but since we are talking space marines (and specifically ONLY loyalist marines for some reason. Sorry heretics) I think my point stands fairly well in this arena with the established rules of engagement.

I COULD be a successor chapter yes...but now I have restrained access to certain things like Special Characters and even Relics. Heck, one could argue the INVERSE was also being done with correctly painted models.

"Playing Iron Hands?" "No, successor" "But they are painted as Iron Hands. They have Iron Hands iconography and you even have specific clan markings on them from Iron hands thus they are Iron Hands" "Makes sense to me" "THEN YOU ARE PLAYING IRON HANDS" "I am playing a successor chapter"

(This illustrating that a large chunk of "Iron Hands" lists were actually just using the the supplement codex not for identity but for more broken access to rules).

 

I mean...for all reason we have no real evidence to even begin deriding this new system as we don't know what one even looks like yet. We know the general structure of them but we haven't seen what one looks like yet and we haven't seen one in relation to its respective codex which will come MUCH further down the line. We could very well see Sub-Faction Identity be determined by Detachment access rather than specific special rules that apply to them.

Maybe Dark Angels will get "Ultra Exterminator" detachment that makes their plasma super good because this detachment has been issued the good stuff.

Maybe the Blood Angels will get the "WE are the strongest Avenger" detachment

Maybe the black templars will get "NO WE ARE the strongest Avenger" detachment (small difference in name but TOTALLY different, look I even caps locked more words)

 

Is it important that the factions within factions have identity? To an extent. There is some element of importance to it but when we talk about that aspect...are you talking about everyone: Aeldari, Drukhari, Orks, Tau, Chaos, Knights, Custodes, Sisters, Imperial guard (I die on this hill). Or are you only referring to the very privileged and over-supported faction that we all love to call our collective home: Space Marines. How different are they really? Ok, a Blood Angel will have a berzerker blitz breakdown but I mean...Black Templars just call that righteous zeal. Yes, Ultramarines are orderly and follow tactical doctrine...Iron Hands call that Calculated Precision.

 

Do chapters have a tendency to prefer one form of war over another? Yes. White Scars famously RUN into battle and NEVER ride bikes, look at their special character Korsarro Khan, no bike at all at any point. However they are still capable of performing other forms of war. If we were to have some form of competition about siege warfare then I would certainly put money on Imperial Fists winning it but end of the day if the Emperor's Angels of Death descend to war, you better believe you are getting the spanking of a life-time in whichever form it requires; just some forms of war are done better than others and heck, that is even a detriment to some chapters. But we don't talk about DOWNSIDES during gameplay now do we? We just want our upsides.

Just saying. Just calling the shots where I see it.

I ain't popular. But the truth rarely is.

Sub-Faction identity in other factions are barely notable or even recognised in lore. Within Space Marines (loyalists) we are spoiled ROTTEN with our chapters having such differences being tallied as historic and unremitting...despite being one of the smaller military forces in the Imperium. Technically, Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard should have more claim to variance and identity than Space Marines...since most chapters are Codex Adherents...even Blood Angels. So...Chill?

Let us first see how homogenised our factions become from this doomsday level rules change and see how we all play the same army once the real rules are out. Goodness...almost feels like its everyone's first time when a new edition drops. No chances given.

 

That concludes my essay on how I now get a BUNCH of notifications for the next day or two on B&C of various reactions and quotes.

[Evil Eye]

I personally quite liked the 4th edition Space Marine book's approach to subfactions where Codex-compliant Chapters could be represented using the custom Chapter rules (with examples given for which bonuses/drawbacks best suited each one), thus meaning that the First Founding Chapters weren't infinitely better (or worse) off than "Your Dudes", whilst the majorly divergent Chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves etc) got their own Codices. I'd honestly be OK with that approach being brought back and used for more or less every faction; subfactions that don't differ tremendously get "example builds" in custom subfaction tables, ones that differ hugely get their own books, be it supplements or an entire Codex.

 

There should absolutely be the ability to represent subfactions on the tabletop, I just don't think it needs to be limited/laser-focused to representing "canon" factions. Those factions should absolutely be representable but they shouldn't be the main focus of subfaction rules IMO. Custom chapter/warband/craftworld/hive fleet rules are far cooler than fixed rules for existing subfactions.

 

Unfortunately I fear with GW's current inability to understand that 40K is supposed to be a setting, not a story, and the resultant focus on MCU styled "main characters" over individual creativity (which IMO is the complete antithesis of what 40K is supposed to be about) that this won't come back, because it's much more profitable to pressure people into buying the Coolguy McHero for the Winners Chapter than it is to encourage people to create their own characters, factions and conflicts.