Could Dante merge with the Sanguinor?

[b1soul]

Just a fluff idea floating in my head, and I'm likely not the first to theorise in this way...

 

We've already seen a TSon bond with a shard of Magnus in 30K, resulting in Ianius or "Janus", first master of the GK. In "current" 40K, we may see the beginnings of a revived Imperium Secundus structure or an "Imperium Tertius", if you will. We have Guilliman in Sanctus, the Lion's anticipated return, and Primaris Dante in Nihilus. To complete the triumvirate, could there be a near-death experience for Dante and his survival due to him bonding with a shard of Sanguinius floating in the Warp, one which has been watching over the chapter for millennia, i.e. the Sanguinor? The Sanguinor could be Alatron, but after Sanguinius' death, there could have been some sort of merging between Alatron and Sanguinius in the Warp...or Alatron could just be retconned, as I never really liked the whole business with Alatron and Haratial.

 

What think you folks out there?

 

This could be something saved for, say, 12th edition...if we don't get the return of Leman Russ or another MIA Primarch.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Possible? Yes.

likely? No.

 

most people seem to think the sanguinor will become something like a greater demon or demon prince of the emperor.

[Brother Tyler]

If Sanguinius were to be brought back by merging the Sanguinor with an existing character, I would lean towards Mephiston as the most likely candidate.

 

The death of Sanguinius, though, was one of the high tragedies of the Horus Heresy and a watershed event in ensuring the decline of the Imperium. Bringing Sanguinius back would violate the tragedy of his death and the Imperium (from a poetic/literary perspective). More importantly, if you thought the whinging about Guilliman's return was a loss of the grimdark atmosphere in favor of noblebright (remember those complaints?), imagine how people would react to Sanguinius coming back. Sanguinius's return would seem to presage Chaos going on the backfoot for once. More importantly, it would undo one of the key things that differentiates the Blood Angels Legion Successors from other Chapters - the genetic curse of the Black Rage. While the Red Thirst would likely remain, the Death Company would be no more. The return of the Lion has the potential for significant changes to the Unforgiven Chapters, especially if there is some sort of reconciliation with Luther, Cypher, and the Fallen (see this discussion). Granted, we're only at the speculation stage at this point, but that's all based on something that may or may not happen. Sanguinius's return wouldn't need any additional external event to have an effect on his scions - the return itself would be sufficient for some momentous change. If GW is going to bring back any loyalist Primarchs, I'd prefer one of those that are (or might be) alive (e.g., Corax, the Khan, Russ, and maybe Vulkan).

 

Going back to the question, though, I could see other alternatives. For one thing, it would be great to see someone from a Chapter other than the Blood Angels. Even if the options were limited to those Chapters from the 2nd Founding, there are a few choices. Keeping Dante around by making him Sanguinius reincarnated would seem to be far too convenient and lazy. While Mephiston's lore makes him the most likely candidate (in my opinion), reincarnating Sanguinius by merging him with one of his sons shouldn't be limited to the Blood Angels Chapter. Imagine if a worthy battle-brother from the Angels Encarmine or Lamenters ascended in such a fashion.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Brother Tyler said:

If Sanguinius were to be brought back by merging the Sanguinor with an existing character, I would lean towards Mephiston as the most likely candidate.

 

The death of Sanguinius, though, was one of the high tragedies of the Horus Heresy and a watershed event in ensuring the decline of the Imperium. Bringing Sanguinius back would violate the tragedy of his death and the Imperium (from a poetic/literary perspective). More importantly, if you thought the whinging about Guilliman's return was a loss of the grimdark atmosphere in favor of noblebright (remember those complaints?), imagine how people would react to Sanguinius coming back. Sanguinius's return would seem to presage Chaos going on the backfoot for once. More importantly, it would undo one of the key things that differentiates the Blood Angels Legion Successors from other Chapters - the genetic curse of the Black Rage. While the Red Thirst would likely remain, the Death Company would be no more. The return of the Lion has the potential for significant changes to the Unforgiven Chapters, especially if there is some sort of reconciliation with Luther, Cypher, and the Fallen (see this discussion). Granted, we're only at the speculation stage at this point, but that's all based on something that may or may not happen. Sanguinius's return wouldn't need any additional external event to have an effect on his scions - the return itself would be sufficient for some momentous change. If GW is going to bring back any loyalist Primarchs, I'd prefer one of those that are (or might be) alive (e.g., Corax, the Khan, Russ, and maybe Vulkan).

 

Going back to the question, though, I could see other alternatives. For one thing, it would be great to see someone from a Chapter other than the Blood Angels. Even if the options were limited to those Chapters from the 2nd Founding, there are a few choices. Keeping Dante around by making him Sanguinius reincarnated would seem to be far too convenient and lazy. While Mephiston's lore makes him the most likely candidate (in my opinion), reincarnating Sanguinius by merging him with one of his sons shouldn't be limited to the Blood Angels Chapter. Imagine if a worthy battle-brother from the Angels Encarmine or Lamenters ascended in such a fashion.

The black rage is a trauma. Sanguinius coming back in no way heals that trauma, and if he came back he’d likely suffer the black rage as well. I’d even wager he’d have to struggle with it even more than any of his sons

Edited April 5, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[MadGreek]

The question was about the Sanguinor, though. Not Sanguinius.

 

The Sanguinor SHOULD come back as the BA Primarch level model (since everyone else is getting one.) My first gut reaction is no to the Dante / Sanguinor merge. And since they just released a new Dante model I don't see it happening. Still, it is an interesting idea. Especially after the interaction during Devastation of Baal.

[Arkangilos]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The black rage is a trauma. Sanguinius coming back in no way heals that trauma, and if he came back he’d likely suffer the black rage as well. I’d even wager he’d have to struggle with it even more than any of his sons

Eh, I think this is true but I don’t think it’s enough to justify having him come back (I don’t think anything could justify it).

 

2 hours ago, MadGreek said:

The Sanguinor SHOULD come back as the BA Primarch level model (since everyone else is getting one.)

100% this.

 

4 hours ago, b1soul said:

What think you folks out there?

I don’t think so. They are distinct enough to where the Sanguinor is his own person, whether it is the HH guy (which I really don’t like), or an apparition of Sanguinius’ will or conscience, and I’m not a fan of persons merging. 
 

4 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

For one thing, it would be great to see someone from a Chapter other than the Blood Angels.

Agreed. I kinda wish they had characters for all the famous BA chapters (Lamenters, Blood Drinkers, etc.) 

[Brother Tyler]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The black rage is a trauma. Sanguinius coming back in no way heals that trauma, and if he came back he’d likely suffer the black rage as well. I’d even wager he’d have to struggle with it even more than any of his sons

It's space magic. The psychic trauma of Sanguinius's death could be magicked away by his theoretical return. Or it might not. None of us knows. I'd wager, though, that hobbyists would be split on which outcome should/could take place and that we will never be able to settle that debate in an online discussion forum. The only way that we'll ever know the correct answer will be if GW does it.

 

6 hours ago, MadGreek said:

The question was about the Sanguinor, though. Not Sanguinius.

Yes, it was about the Sanguinor. But it was definitely phrased in a way that the theoretical merging of Dante and the Sanguinor would effectively be to "complete the triumvirate" (of Primarchs associated with the Imperium Secundus: Guilliman, Jonson, and Sanguinius) with the result of "reincarnating Sanguinius" in the merger. It was about Sanguinor + Dante = Sanguinius.

 

If we shift it to just how the Sanguinor should be represented, I disagree with him being "Primarch level." I see the Sanguinor as being only slightly superior to the Emperor's Champion, but not on par with a Primarch. He should bring some of the potency of Sanguinius (if he's the manifestation of Sanguinius's will/spirit) and should be able to do things that [most] Primarchs can't, but he shouldn't be a serious threat to a Primarch, not even one that hasn't been corrupted by Chaos. The only way I can see this not being the case is if it's revealed that Sanguinius was a Perpetual, but the manner of his death at the hands of Horus has delayed his ability to restore himself and the Sanguinor has been the slow buildup to full restoration (whether as a true psychic reincarnation or as a form of possession [of Alatron/Azkaellon/Dante/Mephiston/whoever].

[Orange Knight]

I think that it was a possibility before Dante crossed the rubicon. Now that he has a new model, he isn't going anywhere for a long, long time.

 

But the idea that the Sanguinor might be a warp manifested avatar of Sangunius could be explored more. He could receive a model and rules worthy of a Primarch, and can continue to exist as a being that only manifests in times of great need. The great rift has infected the galaxy with warp energy - both the powers of chaos and the servants of the Emperor are equally empowered.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

It's space magic. The psychic trauma of Sanguinius's death could be magicked away by his theoretical return. Or it might not. None of us knows. I'd wager, though, that hobbyists would be split on which outcome should/could take place and that we will never be able to settle that debate in an online discussion forum. The only way that we'll ever know the correct answer will be if GW does it.

 

Yes, it was about the Sanguinor. But it was definitely phrased in a way that the theoretical merging of Dante and the Sanguinor would effectively be to "complete the triumvirate" (of Primarchs associated with the Imperium Secundus: Guilliman, Jonson, and Sanguinius) with the result of "reincarnating Sanguinius" in the merger. It was about Sanguinor + Dante = Sanguinius.

 

If we shift it to just how the Sanguinor should be represented, I disagree with him being "Primarch level." I see the Sanguinor as being only slightly superior to the Emperor's Champion, but not on par with a Primarch. He should bring some of the potency of Sanguinius (if he's the manifestation of Sanguinius's will/spirit) and should be able to do things that [most] Primarchs can't, but he shouldn't be a serious threat to a Primarch, not even one that hasn't been corrupted by Chaos. The only way I can see this not being the case is if it's revealed that Sanguinius was a Perpetual, but the manner of his death at the hands of Horus has delayed his ability to restore himself and the Sanguinor has been the slow buildup to full restoration (whether as a true psychic reincarnation or as a form of possession [of Alatron/Azkaellon/Dante/Mephiston/whoever].

I don’t think there’d be any major split about sanguinius’ return curing the rage.

it’s often 1 of 2 reasons cited for why people don’t want him to comeback.

So I think the overwhelming majority of BA players would be against anything that cured the rage.

[b1soul]

@Brother Tyler

For clarity, I think this concept works better if the resulting Dante-Sanguinor is a (near) primarch-level entity, but with its unique identity like Janus, not a 1:1 reincarnation of Sanguinius.

[Xenith]

Yes, but only if they did the Fusion Dance, and only for 30 minutes at a time. 

 

More seriously, I don't think they would go there - as BT says, Meph, being the 'host of darkness' might be a more likely candidate, the two sides merging to make one whole, but Dante seems his own thing. 

 

Unless Dante is the Sanguinor, because of space magic and time being wibbly wobbly. 

[b1soul]

Good point about Meph, and as others have pointed out, Dante just got a Primaris model on the eve of 10th, so a Sanguinor-Dante is a long way coming...12th edition could be a wee bit premature.

 

Maybe GW could go balls to the wall and have Meph self-sacrifice and transfer his "Spooky Darkness" to Dante somehow, to make the latter a more suitable vessel to contain the searing essence of the Sanguinor.

 

Yep, I'm reaching here...but think a Janus-like character in current 40K would be pretty cool as an alternative to a more conventional primarch return.

[Blindhamster]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:05 AM, Xenith said:

Unless Dante is the Sanguinor, because of space magic and time being wibbly wobbly. 

I enjoy this as a theory honestly. It's fun

[Tokugawa]

If GW could make players of other chapters/legions purchase their big toy boss happily, they could also take money from BA players in this way. GW could give Sanguinor a super big model, for solding to BA players as counterpart of other primarchs. 

Maybe looking like this pic. Written as "Sanguinor", read as "avatar of Sanguinius", you know...

[Xenith]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:43 PM, Blindhamster said:

I enjoy this as a theory honestly. It's fun

 

It could explain why Dante seems to see the Sanguinor more often than others - Dante-Sanguinor warp travelling back through time to save his former selves so he can save the BA Chapter and eventually become the Sanguinor...also explains why he never takes the mask off.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Xenith

[Karhedron]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:05 AM, Xenith said:

Yes, but only if they did the Fusion Dance, and only for 30 minutes at a time. 

 

OK, now I can't get this out of my head. 

 

[Spagunk]

I thought we already knew who the sanguinor was? As in there was a Black Library novel where someone was turned into the Sanguinor (forget which one) and they then got zapped/infused somehow during battle or something.

[Karhedron]

40 minutes ago, Spagunk said:

I thought we already knew who the sanguinor was? As in there was a Black Library novel where someone was turned into the Sanguinor (forget which one) and they then got zapped/infused somehow during battle or something.

 

Yup, the short story "Herald of Sanguinius" covers the creation of the Sanguinor. He was a Sanguinary Guard who sacrificed his identity during Imperium Secundus to act as a body-double to protect Sanguinius in case Curze made another assassination attempt.

 

Later he fell into a warp rift while the Blood Angels were crossing the Ruinstorm to try and reach Terra. He took Sanguinius's place holding down a Great Daemon allowing the others to escape. Sanguinius's last glimpse of the Sanguinor has him sprouting wings.

[b1soul]

Totally speculative theory...

 

After  Sanguinius’ death, that proto-Sanguinor may have served as an anchor or beacon for the primarch’s soul in the Warp, and they could have fused, with Sanguinius becoming the dominant aspect and the BA legionary willingly receding.

 

If Dante or Mephiston fuse with the Sanguinor, the resulting entity could be a more equal fusion, due to the former’s strength of will or Sanguinius’ recognition of his extraordinary abilities.

[lansalt]

As said above, the Sanguinor has been already explained by the fluff, and he has nothing to do with Dante.

 

The real standing BA mysteries lie elsewhere: the fate of the Red Angel, the Emperor's real purpose creating them, what's going on with the feral winged BA in the Bequin series... etc.

[Arkangilos]

8 hours ago, lansalt said:

the Emperor's real purpose

I think that is in malevolence. They were designed the way they were because it allows them to survive and rebuild where no other legion could. Their marine creation process, while more painful, is more accepting of the weak.

Their Omophagea allows them to be trained to muscle memory from eating the dead marines before them. 
 

It gives an example, they had no support for a campaign, and they were down to extinction level. By the time the Imperium showed up they had basically rebuilt the legion. 

[lansalt]

That's just one ability they have. I think the real question is why the Red Thirst was put on purpose on their geneseed (confirmed by Cawl to not be a flaw), and how that's related to the BA we see in the last Bequin novel.

[Arkangilos]

19 minutes ago, lansalt said:

That's just one ability they have. I think the real question is why the Red Thirst was put on purpose on their geneseed (confirmed by Cawl to not be a flaw), and how that's related to the BA we see in the last Bequin novel.

I’m pretty sure the Red Thirst is just a byproduct of the Omophagea being the way it is.

 

Cawl can’t remove it without removing the special Omophagea.

 

As far as he is concerned it is working as designed.

 

Also, not to mention that just because Cawl says it isn’t a flaw doesn’t mean he is being honest, or correct. I think it’s more likely he said that so that the imperium, if some lower echelon finds out, can’t target them for extinction. 
 

They would be like, “Mutant, evil!”

 

and literally the Mechanicus could be like, “you dare question the Emperor’s design?!”

Edited April 22, 2023 by Arkangilos

[lansalt]

That would be very anticlimactic

Given all the hints through the series about the symbolic schemes and plans within plans of the Emperor, I hope there's more to it.  It cannot be random that the Emperor created a legion of vampire Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde marines loaded with so much metaphor about the duality of angels vs. daemons, etc.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I definitely want to get answers and conclusions to the blood angels in the pariah series