How powerful should the Sanguinor be?

[Arkangilos]

5 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

If we shift it to just how the Sanguinor should be represented, I disagree with him being "Primarch level." I see the Sanguinor as being only slightly superior to the Emperor's Champion, but not on par with a Primarch

I think the Lore has him as more primarch level, with him saving entire battles when he shows up. He defeated Ka’bhanda, cut through an entire horde to save 12 space marines, etc.

 

Every time he appears it is essentially presented as divine intervention in which the tide of the battle, no matter how bad it was, gets turned.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

54 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I think the Lore has him as more primarch level, with him saving entire battles when he shows up. He defeated Ka’bhanda, cut through an entire horde to save 12 space marines, etc.

 

Every time he appears it is essentially presented as divine intervention in which the tide of the battle, no matter how bad it was, gets turned.

Tbf primarch level is a very nebulous term as well so he could still be distinctly weaker than angron or the lion, but distinctly stronger than any other named marine characters.

[Karhedron]

Agreed.  Guilliman for instance seems pretty mediocre as combat entity in his own right. Much of his value is as a buff machine and some of his best rules come from the wargear he carries such as the Emperors Sword and the Armour of Fates.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

M14  WS2+ BS3+ S6 T7 A8 W15 SV2+ 5++ 250ish points
Seems appropriate

Emperor's Retribution
Pistol2 16" S12 AP-2 D3 (melta rule) 

edit
Encarmine Broadsword
Thrust <anit-monster/demon> S8 AP-3 D d6+2
Sweep S user AP-1 D2 exploding 6s to hit

trying to keep some of the new mechanics in mind for this as well.

Rules
Inspiring Angel
+1 to wound in melee within 9" 

Terrifying Visage
-1 to Hit against shooting and melee within 9"


this way he's capable of smashing non-monster/demon characters, as well as light-medium vehicles, but without being too lethal in general

Edited April 6, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Blindhamster]

10 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

It's space magic. The psychic trauma of Sanguinius's death could be magicked away by his theoretical return. Or it might not. None of us knows. I'd wager, though, that hobbyists would be split on which outcome should/could take place and that we will never be able to settle that debate in an online discussion forum. The only way that we'll ever know the correct answer will be if GW does it.

 

Yes, it was about the Sanguinor. But it was definitely phrased in a way that the theoretical merging of Dante and the Sanguinor would effectively be to "complete the triumvirate" (of Primarchs associated with the Imperium Secundus: Guilliman, Jonson, and Sanguinius) with the result of "reincarnating Sanguinius" in the merger. It was about Sanguinor + Dante = Sanguinius.

 

If we shift it to just how the Sanguinor should be represented, I disagree with him being "Primarch level." I see the Sanguinor as being only slightly superior to the Emperor's Champion, but not on par with a Primarch. He should bring some of the potency of Sanguinius (if he's the manifestation of Sanguinius's will/spirit) and should be able to do things that [most] Primarchs can't, but he shouldn't be a serious threat to a Primarch, not even one that hasn't been corrupted by Chaos. The only way I can see this not being the case is if it's revealed that Sanguinius was a Perpetual, but the manner of his death at the hands of Horus has delayed his ability to restore himself and the Sanguinor has been the slow buildup to full restoration (whether as a true psychic reincarnation or as a form of possession [of Alatron/Azkaellon/Dante/Mephiston/whoever].

you… you have read the actual lore for the sanguinor where he choke slams khabanda right? If that wouldn’t mean he ought to be primarch tier… I don’t know what does. His whole lore schtick is to show up and turn a loss into a win, typically by defeating the biggest baddest enemy on the scene.

 

personally, if he got an update, I’d actually like to see his blessing return, I always liked that.

[The Unseen]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

you… you have read the actual lore for the sanguinor where he choke slams khabanda right? If that wouldn’t mean he ought to be primarch tier… I don’t know what does. His whole lore schtick is to show up and turn a loss into a win, typically by defeating the biggest baddest enemy on the scene.

 

personally, if he got an update, I’d actually like to see his blessing return, I always liked that.

Yeah, anything that can Solo Ka'Banda, or the one legend I believe said by Dante, one of the older books he details how he was sent on a penitent mission along with a small squad into a traitor held ship. The Sanguinor showed up, and left a trail of dead CSM for them to follow. Didn't kill all of them, but described as culling their numbers to the point that the squad succeeds, though Dante is the sole survivor.

 

He's magic, in the lore he grants unique slightly vague buff to any nearby Blood Angel, and he can solo a Bloodthirster. So melee duelist with a unique combat aura, not rerolls though. Maybe less outright lethal than the Lion, but higher movement+FLY.

Be easy to justify him as a LoW for BA and successors.

 

Also if they could make his intervention rules actually good, that'd be cool.

 

Something like he gets to deepstrike and get a consistent charge as long as a BA unit has charged the same target or something.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, The Unseen said:

Yeah, anything that can Solo Ka'Banda, or the one legend I believe said by Dante, one of the older books he details how he was sent on a penitent mission along with a small squad into a traitor held ship. The Sanguinor showed up, and left a trail of dead CSM for them to follow. Didn't kill all of them, but described as culling their numbers to the point that the squad succeeds, though Dante is the sole survivor.

 

He's magic, in the lore he grants unique slightly vague buff to any nearby Blood Angel, and he can solo a Bloodthirster. So melee duelist with a unique combat aura, not rerolls though. Maybe less outright lethal than the Lion, but higher movement+FLY.

Be easy to justify him as a LoW for BA and successors.

 

Also if they could make his intervention rules actually good, that'd be cool.

 

Something like he gets to deepstrike and get a consistent charge as long as a BA unit has charged the same target or something.

so something between the lion and Guilliman?

a beatstick, but not a super beatstick. a buffing character but not a super buffing character.

i think i'd like to see him provide the +1 to wound in melee within 9" and as well as  a death mask debuff with the same radius, and i'd like the death mask to also effect shooting as well as melee.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Jolemai
Correction added

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

edited my notional profile for him if anyone wants to take a look and provide feed back

[Brother Tyler]

This topic was split from the Could Dante merge with the Sanguinor? topic because it was derailing that topic. It was worthy of discussion, however, so it was split into its own discussion.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I suspect the Sanguinor would not be as strong as Guilliman or Jonson, but would be more powerful than a standard space marine character.

 

In the realm of characters on the tabletop, that would still mean he's more like a Primarch than not, even if not quite as powerful as them. The role they have on the table really shifts at a certain point, and the Sanguinor should be on the far side of that shift.

[Helias_Tancred]

On this topic I've always said that The Sanguinor should be "primarich-lite" in terms of stats and capability. 

 

I take that back after seeing the Lion's stats, especially #of attacks and his weapons. I'd say The Sanguinor should be closer to the Lion than Guilliman, and be ON primarch level. 

 

The Sanguinor has shown to have a buff effect on morale in the lore, but he is a formidable beat stick at the end of the day.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Eilio Tiberius

[Blindhamster]

I’d like the lion to meet the sanguinor

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think he should be able to stomp marine characters, including named ones, no problem. He should be able to reliably kill greater demons. He shouldn’t necessarily be equal to the lion or angron, but he should provide a serious threat and challenge to them.

[Paladin777]

I think his raw combat stats should be at least that of a Deamon Prince, and a few special rules on top of that would be nice too. 

[Helias_Tancred]

This dude can abide those replies ;)

 

 

[brother_b]

I’m biased here. I want the Sanguinor to be the full embodiment of Sanguinius returned. A spirit form or imbued marine or whatever. 
 

I want to come home to BA and I want a primarch level LOW for the army.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, brother_b said:

I’m biased here. I want the Sanguinor to be the full embodiment of Sanguinius returned. A spirit form or imbued marine or whatever. 
 

I want to come home to BA and I want a primarch level LOW for the army.

We all want a primarch level character, but the question is how do we best represent sanguinius on the tabletop without being OP.

 

solid melee, and large buffing aura I think fits the bill.

[Paladin777]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

We all want a primarch level character, but the question is how do we best represent sanguinius on the tabletop without being OP.

 

solid melee, and large buffing aura I think fits the bill.

especially since Sanguinius was by far the most powerful primarch...

 

I'd love a loyalist primarch level Sanguinor, but I'd settle for a deamon prince level one. The one we have right now is just sad...

Edited April 10, 2023 by Paladin777

[Morticon]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:09 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

M14  WS2+ BS3+ S6 T7 A8 W15 SV2+ 5++ 250ish points
Seems appropriate

Emperor's Retribution
Pistol2 16" S12 AP-2 D3 (melta rule) 

edit
Encarmine Broadsword
Thrust <anit-monster/demon> S8 AP-3 D d6+2
Sweep S user AP-1 D2 exploding 6s to hit

trying to keep some of the new mechanics in mind for this as well.

Rules
Inspiring Angel
+1 to wound in melee within 9" 

Terrifying Visage
-1 to Hit against shooting and melee within 9"


this way he's capable of smashing non-monster/demon characters, as well as light-medium vehicles, but without being too lethal in general

 

 

Look at Gully and the Lion - Sanguinor wont have stats that are much greater than either of those. Expect T6, W9

[brother_b]

I’m down with all of that! For Sanguinius and the Sanguinor!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

38 minutes ago, Morticon said:

 

 

Look at Gully and the Lion - Sanguinor wont have stats that are much greater than either of those. Expect T6, W9

Super sanguinor will probably arrive in 10th where they said they’d be upping T values a lot, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he and other loyalist primarchs were T8-9.

T6 is 3 less than the current cap of 9 and only 2 less than the previous cap of 8.

moving them up to 8-9 keeps them relatively in the same region of relative toughness.

 

also with characters joining units again the W cap for look out sir or whatever the current name of the rule is becomes less relevant, so wound could also realistically go up a little bit to 10-12

[Karhedron]

I don't see the Sanguinor as being a fully-realise incarnation of Sanguinius. He is not a leader or a tactical genius. He is an awesome fighter and a symbol of inspiration. I would have him as a beatstick and leave the tactical acumen and genius to Dante. That has the advantage of keeping both characters relevant.

[Helias_Tancred]

19 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I don't see the Sanguinor as being a fully-realise incarnation of Sanguinius. He is not a leader or a tactical genius. He is an awesome fighter and a symbol of inspiration. I would have him as a beatstick and leave the tactical acumen and genius to Dante. That has the advantage of keeping both characters relevant.

 

I'd like to see his melee prowess be somewhere between Guilliman and Lion. Definite LoW beat stick! Number of attacks 8. Definitely. Also a great morale buff aura for BA?

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

20 minutes ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

 

I'd like to see his melee prowess be somewhere between Guilliman and Lion. Definite LoW beat stick! Number of attacks 8. Definitely. Also a great morale buff aura for BA?

 

And a special deep strike rule. Divine intervention or something, allowing him to come onto the table within 6” of an enemy model.

[Paladin777]

Being able to charge out of reserves that reliably might be a bit too powerful for such a beatstick. The heroically intervening out of reserves it gets now is probably fine though.