Sisters of Silence must be super-human

[b1soul]

Since what I call the "Custodes reboot" with HH Master of Mankind and Forge World Inferno and Watchers of the Throne, has there been any attempt to explain why Sisters of Silence can...

 

- keep up with Custodes when they pair up and do their dance of death in melee combat or

- (when not fighting in tandem with Custodes) give a tough challenge to traitor Astartes or even slay them in melee combat??

 

I just don't see how unaugmented women (or men) could do this...

 

Maybe it's been elaborated upon somewhere more recently?

Edited April 10, 2023 by b1soul

[Karhedron]

Maybe the mutation that gives rise to the pariah effect also enhances physical attributes. Alternatively the Pariah effect itself probably makes them particularly hard t fight against.

[sitnam]

As far as I'm aware they are baseline humans without augmentation. I don't thinking fight traitor Marines solo is that wild. IIRC that marine was wounded, and still gave Aleya a tough fight. A lot of that comes down to Astartes power level perception. I don't feel that very elite humans can't take on Astartes on uneven terms (outnumber, terrain, the Astartes is wounded, etc) Sisters of Battle can give Marines hell, I don't think SoS are far off from that.

 

Keeping up with Custodes is a bit eyebrow raising though, and I really have no answer to it. Watchers is a weird book, as SoS don't seem to commonly work as tandem individuals but conjoined formations. 

[Noserenda]

Sisters of silence are consistently shown to be considerably more dangerous than regular humans which comes down to a few factors, at least for the the non orphan cadres. 

1. They are Talons of the Emperor and most of their gear was set up when he was directly favouring them, they have the best toys, the best training, best facilities, best of everything really and that makes a huge difference. 

2. The Pariah gene, especially when combined with the above is a dangerous thing, especially when you arent ready for it and it usually kicks in at roughly melee range, where the Anathema are most dangerous and that moment of hesitation can mean a greatblade to the face.

And thats just baseline folk, its a considerably more pronounced in psykers or latents! 

3. Really a spin off of point 1 but the best of everything in the Imperium is also going to include some low level augments and gene therapy to give them a bit more of an edge, extend lifespan and help recovery from injuries both of which means more veterancy and battle experience than typical.

4. Morale, they are absolute fanatics! Even the orphaned Sisters in the Beast series still had absolute faith in themselves if not the Imperium as a whole. Some combination of the above points just keeps them going when most folks would give up and die.

The other thing, not really a point per sec, is that most of the fiction depiction of them is of Oblivion knights and up, who mostly dont currently have 40k rules but for example, the Sister in the Dark Imperium trilogy is a Knight Abyssal, so like a chapter master level character, her decking a bunch of Celestians is fairly on the level then, Aleya is a hero, carving up Space marines makes more sense; they are Jane Prosecutor on the street :D 

 

[b1soul]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Maybe the mutation that gives rise to the pariah effect also enhances physical attributes. Alternatively the Pariah effect itself probably makes them particularly hard t fight against.

 

My head canon is that the SoS had undergone some Bene Gesserit style breeding in the distant past...so they're not baseline, but this doesn't really work if the SoS order is just randomly selecting female pariahs for recruitment, unless as you say, the Pariah gene was maybe the product of a breeding program in DAoT and a desired "side-effect" was a high probability of paired physical superiority in female specimens.

 

So maybe a DAoT program to breed physically superior Pariahs en masse. This group was eventually scattered but their genes continued and the SoS in 30K were essentially trying to reconstitute the descendants of this group. Again, just head canon.

 

3 hours ago, sitnam said:

I don't thinking fight traitor Marines solo is that wild. 

 

Keeping up with Custodes is a bit eyebrow raising though, and I really have no answer to it. Watchers is a weird book

 

Fighting an Astartes (even a moderately injured one) is pretty wild for an unaugmented woman imo...esp if said Astartes is power armoured. Baseline humans shouldn't be able to stand against that combination of speed and power.

 

The fighting alongside Custodes in intricate pairing was first seen in ADB's MoM, so wouldn't lay that at the feet of Emperor's Legion.

 

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

Sisters of silence are consistently shown to be considerably more dangerous than regular humans  

 

I like the idea of maybe some legacy DAoT breeding/gene-manipulation effects in even modern SoS

[Noserenda]

There are definitely hints that they are genetically engineered somehow, their back story is almost certainly false, and it seems Valdor is doing something with blanks possibly on his own, possibly with Dads blessing that has successfully cloned at least one of them.

Certainly their original art had some real cloney vibes, though obviously shaving your head and wearing a big mask does possibly help that lol, plus art isnt always a reliable way to convey stuff like that! 

But certainly all the OG Sisters being clones has been increasingly unlikely as we get to see inside their heads in the heresy series.

[Lord_Ikka]

SoS also seem to weaponize their blankness more than ordinary pariahs- we see a lot of SoS viewed as "blurs" or people sliding their eyes over them without truly seeing. This sort of thing can definitely impact their abilities on the battlefield; if the enemy ignores them or can't really see them properly then there is a much better chance for the Sisters to engage at a higher level than their physical abilities may allow.

[b1soul]

11 hours ago, Noserenda said:

There are definitely hints that they are genetically engineered somehow, their back story is almost certainly false, and it seems Valdor is doing something with blanks possibly on his own, possibly with Dads blessing that has successfully cloned at least one of them.

Certainly their original art had some real cloney vibes, though obviously shaving your head and wearing a big mask does possibly help that lol, plus art isnt always a reliable way to convey stuff like that! 

But certainly all the OG Sisters being clones has been increasingly unlikely as we get to see inside their heads in the heresy series.

Many Pariahs in modern 40K could be descendants of late DAoT clones designed to be anti-Chaos weapons. That would mean SoS are connected to an ancient batch of sexually viable (and physically superior) Pariah clones, but are not clones themselves. Just head canon, but fun to think about. Obviously not confirmed by anything in 40K, but not contradicted?

 

This idea could tick at least two thematic boxes:

 

1. Those blanks engineered during the DAoT were likely physically superior to current SoS and had stronger null projection. Millennia of dilution through not-so-designed breeding is in line with 40K's theme of deterioration over time. You could also have a small core of female blanks who form the SoS to recapture their original purpose, but their numbers are too few and their breeding programs have had mixed results. Over time, their priority became more simplified to become just continuing a slowly degrading legacy, rather than maintain or improve quality.

 

2. The Emp doesn't necessarily have to create everything, but he can still leverage other people's work by incorporating SoS into the Imperium. Maybe he even had back-burner plans to recapture the full potential of the SoS if he had more time.

 

4 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

SoS also seem to weaponize their blankness more than ordinary pariahs- we see a lot of SoS viewed as "blurs" or people sliding their eyes over them without truly seeing. This sort of thing can definitely impact their abilities on the battlefield

 

Yes, but I don't think their null field physically "de-buffs" traitor SM to the extent that they'd only be functioning within "mere mortal" range.

 

In ATS, an older work, the sizeable SoS presence forced the TSons to fight as non-psyker marines, but it generally didn't weaken them to the point they were only on par with mortals physically. Iirc the TSons were still holding their own against the SW, but the latter definitely had an edge in non-psychic combat and the TSons were being ground down. It's been more than a decade since reading that book, so if I'm misremembering, anyone can feel free to correct me.

 

TSons were the premier psyker legion, so I'd imagine non-psyker/sorcerer Traitor Astartes would be even less affected by SoS blankness, not more.

 

I think there may be a more recent retcon of how severely psykers are affected by SoS, but non-psykers...not so sure.

 

For example, Jenetia Krole's exceptionally powerful null field seemed to render her functionally invisible against the World Eaters, but there was no mentioned of the WE being physically weakened. Based on that, a weaker SoS would probably have been less visible/noticeable to the WE, with likely no effect on their physical speed/power.

Edited April 11, 2023 by b1soul

[INKS]

A Sisters of battle is dangerous and could take down a chaos space marine, I don't see why a sister of silence couldn't as well. They are well equipped and trained. 

[b1soul]

I have yet to see a SoB solo a CSM in melee...or even put up a good fight under those circumstances

 

Maybe Ephrael Stern when she was some sort of living saint?

Edited April 11, 2023 by b1soul

[Noserenda]

Its not literally weakening them, but its confusing, they are hard to keep focus on and entering a blank aura has been repeatedly shown to be shocking, especially if unexpected and thats a crucial moment wen you are dealing with most Pariahs where its a relatively small radius and they can stab you when you hesitate.

The Anthema werent much of a focus in the Kson book from memory but at a distance they most work defensively anyway, stopping psychic attacks and the like which would give the Wolves an advantage as the Ksons lose their major crutch. Up close the Sisters are a lot more dangerous to psykers! 

[librisrouge]

The Pariah gene (and their superlative gear) is all of the advantages they need. Let's look at the two big things it gives them:

 

1. The Pariah Gene's Effect on Non-Psykers: Sudden discomfort when you get into melee range is a terrible thing to face. Picture being an amazing killer. You've done it for an untold number of years. You think you have face everything the galaxy can throw at you because you've faced psykers, daemons, gene-engineered monsters, etc. You approach this girl (the servants of the Carrion Throne send girls to fight you!?!) and suddenly, everything is off. She makes you uncomfortable in ways you didn't think was still possible. Any daemon gifts you've been give, no matter how subtle, suddenly stumble and fail. Up isn't necessarily down but it is a degree in that direction. Nothing you've faced has prepared you for this because pariahs are that rare and certainly non-existent within the eye. It takes you out of the moment but only for a moment. Thankfully, for the sister, a moment is all she needs.
2. Sociopathy: It seems that pariah's have a VERY difficult time relating to normal human beings. This might be a part of their isolation but it also might be a product of their genetics. This is to an extreme in a lot of cases and the SoS seems to be a collection of those cases. This works to their advantage in battle. They don't suffer the transhuman dreed that normal humans feel facing astartes. They aren't flapped by the unnaturalness of daemons. This helps them to face the horrors of the galaxy without the hesitation that would kill even the best human warriors.

As far as keeping up with Custodes, I don't think they do. I think Custodes keep up with them. The presence of SoS carries a lot of advantages, both in anti-psy and the effect of the gene on normal folks. Custodes can absolutely take advantage of that and probably aim to when fighting directly with sisters. If they don't need/want those advantages, then they probably leave the sisters behind.

[Noserenda]

Thats a good point actually, Pariahs have always been a bit "emotionally dulled" or sociopathic, i guess some combination of the different soul and literally everyone's irrational dislike/fear of them from birth would do that.

[Karhedron]

15 hours ago, b1soul said:

Many Pariahs in modern 40K could be descendants of late DAoT clones designed to be anti-Chaos weapons. That would mean SoS are connected to an ancient batch of sexually viable (and physically superior) Pariah clones, but are not clones themselves. Just head canon, but fun to think about. Obviously not confirmed by anything in 40K, but not contradicted?

 

Following on from that, how do SoS (and Pariahs in general) reproduce? If baseline humans find them that unpleasant to be around, I can't see them surviving without some sort of assisted breeding. Maybe there are sufficient male Pariahs to maintain a breeding pool but given their rarity, how likely is it that they meet?

 

Of course it may be that the Pariah gene is recessive. There are enough people carrying a single copy of the gene to periodically produce offspring with 2 copies who will then be fully fledged Pariahs. I doubt GW have ever put any thought into this but it is fun to speculate.

[Noserenda]

Its inconsistent, we have sources both saying its not exactly a gene you pass down and specifically talking about the Pariah gene and breeding programs :D The SoS are supposed to have come from a planet of Amazonian warrior blanks but as i mention above i suspect thats a lie.

GW is never going to go into it in depth but Bequin was a joygirl, albeit not a successful one but it did work. Depends on the power of the Pariah and whether the other party is at all psychic i guess. 

That said if breeding untouchables was at all reliable they would not be rare!  It might be, or have been dooable at some point but probably from Dark age or wildly unethical methods :D 

[b1soul]

@librisrouge, that's a hard sell for me. The effect on mortal non-psykers is you feel uneasy at their presence or you have a hard time remembering them after you meet them.

 

I don't see how that should make it very difficult for a non-psyker transhuman killing-machine, capable of withstanding all sorts of discomfort, to kill a regular woman armed with a sword. It really shouldn't.

 

And I don't think anything in the fluff would indicate that Custodes slow down their combat speed to baseline human levels when fighting in tandem with SoS. That would make them an order of magnitude slower than Traitor Astartes.

 

[Noserenda]

@b1soul it feels like you arent reading the thread if you think they are "regular women" or its as minor as "feeling uneasy" at this point.

[lansalt]

It's somewhat inconsistent in the stories. Sometimes they're basically like secular Sororitas with extra protection against the warp, and sometimes they seem able to weaponize their null power to stun adversaries or make themselves invisible to natural senses.

I think their rules should reflect this to clearly explain how they're able to keep up with marines and custodes like they do all the time (Prospero, Watchers of the Throne series, etc)

[sairence]

I love the fluff around them. In a grim dark universe full of despair they stand out for me more than most creatures. 

 

I'm just reading the Solar War books and got the a meeting between Dorn and Valdor, with a Huscarl and a Custodes prefect in attendance. It doesn't get more elite than that. And Jenetia Krole walked in and sat down at the table before anyone even noticed she had entered the room, even though she was invited and expected.

 

I get that she represents the cream of the crop, but so did the other people in the room. Bringing this down to "normal" levels, based on that a regular Sister should still present an issue for even an Astartes a if she wants to. Add to that exceptional training and presumably top notch equipment they have access to again, and it doesn't seem too far-fetched to me, that she would at least stand a chance.

 

I also liked the depicition of Aleya and her sisters fighting demons during Gulliman's return, stripping away all warp-borne glimmers and influences, making them much less potent.

 

I'm really happy GW made them more of a thing in the rules again, and really hope they continue to expand on them. Their aura should do more on the tabletop than just be a bother to psykers.

 

[Noserenda]

4 hours ago, lansalt said:

It's somewhat inconsistent in the stories. Sometimes they're basically like secular Sororitas with extra protection against the warp, and sometimes they seem able to weaponize their null power to stun adversaries or make themselves invisible to natural senses.

I think their rules should reflect this to clearly explain how they're able to keep up with marines and custodes like they do all the time (Prospero, Watchers of the Throne series, etc)

 

Blank strength varies like psykers and it's also trainable, though that seems restricted to the Culexus temple and Anathema so it's obviously a bit esoteric.

 

Between attrition and training it stands to reason the more veteran sisters would be the more powerful ones with particularly potent examples being singled out.

 

I am intrigued by Aleya literally weaponising her aura, though I think she is the only one to have actively done that in first person? 

[Zoatibix]

Chaos Marine was a mook. Aleya, as the hero, in the book gets to defeat him. He should think himself lucky he didn’t show up in one of the Warhammer for Kids books and die to a plucky tweenager armed only with a Pez dispenser and a roll of tape.

 

A marine has an advantage due to strength and toughness but in terms of skill and training there will be groups at comparable levels.

 

IMO Marines in the fluff have morphed from being excellent all-rounders into an expectation of being better than everyone else at everything.

[Chaplain Killmer]

Totally agree the CSM was just for dramatic reasons. But her aura would probably sever or affect even less powerfull connections to the warp like a gift of chaos or a mark.

[Captain Idaho]

Reading this thread, I would concur the effects of being Anathema are essentially the great equaliser against opponents like Astartes. 

 

Speaking as someone who boxes, I can confirm fighting with poor vision or sense of awareness makes a massive difference, probably as much as speed and power. If the opponent of SoS can barely comphrehend what they're seeing, they may as well be standing their presenting their throats.

 

On 4/11/2023 at 8:03 PM, Karhedron said:

 

Following on from that, how do SoS (and Pariahs in general) reproduce? If baseline humans find them that unpleasant to be around, I can't see them surviving without some sort of assisted breeding. Maybe there are sufficient male Pariahs to maintain a breeding pool but given their rarity, how likely is it that they meet?

 

Of course it may be that the Pariah gene is recessive. There are enough people carrying a single copy of the gene to periodically produce offspring with 2 copies who will then be fully fledged Pariahs. I doubt GW have ever put any thought into this but it is fun to speculate.

 

I'd consider your idea the Pariah gene is recessive to be most likely in this case.

 

Having said that, 3rd edition Necrons fluff suggested a link between them and the Pariah gene, so it's interesting to think how it was cultivated within humanity even if not by the old fluff of Necrons and their C'tan masters.

 

The Emperor, as a superlative psyker, seemed to have no problems embracing the SoS, despite most/usually all psykers detesting them. The nature of them might very well be the reason for this, though it's possible the Emperor just kept his composure.