What’s the current estimate for marine numbers?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Pre guilliman it was around 1million now what would it be?

[BrainFireBob]

Cawl made ~100,000 from each loyalist gene line. That's another million.

 

Then you had the casualties of Noctis Aeterna and the Indomitus Crusade.

 

So I'm going with 1 million to 1.5 million.

Edited April 10, 2023 by BrainFireBob

[Orange Knight]

Hard to say. In Dark Imperium, it's mentioned that Guilliman casually established 26 new chapters within the 500 worlds, and that new chapters are established everywhere as the Crusade gets around.

 

I would say in between 1.5 and 2 million? Could be more. Obviously lots of casualties since the great rift

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Hard to say. In Dark Imperium, it's mentioned that Guilliman casually established 26 new chapters within the 500 worlds, and that new chapters are established everywhere as the Crusade gets around.

 

I would say in between 1.5 and 2 million? Could be more. Obviously lots of casualties since the great rift

How large are chapters now that guilliman has essentially tossed the codex out the window?

 

for example when DoB was happening did guilliman arrive to reinforce the blood angels because of the DoB, or was he already planning to reinforce the BA with new fresh primaris marines regardless of the chapters size and number of battle brothers?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

In Dawn of Fire, Cawl gave the new number and the answer wasn't actually stated, but the impact of it implies that it was huge.

One thing that was stated was that now there is no imbalance in favour of certain bloodlines, every bloodline was brought up to close to parity. Which implies there are a LOT more marines than there were before.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Here's the quote: 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Here's the quote: 

 

 

yeah i wouldn't be surprised if there were well over 3million now based off of that 

 

[Arkangilos]

16 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

How large are chapters now that guilliman has essentially tossed the codex out the window?

I don't think he threw it out the window, though. From what I've seen there is still a *rough* 1,000 limit per chapter, not including scouts. 

 

Before it was a *rough* 1,000 limit per chapter including scouts.

[Arikel]

On 4/10/2023 at 2:47 PM, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Here's the quote: 

 

 

This is pretty interesting. The numbers implied would have to be huge to genuinely surprise the primarch. Perhaps enough for several thousand chapters of marines, versus the vague 1000 chapter limit rule previously followed by the empire.

[jaxom]

15 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

I don't think he threw it out the window, though. From what I've seen there is still a *rough* 1,000 limit per chapter, not including scouts. 

 

Before it was a *rough* 1,000 limit per chapter including scouts.

I don't have my copy anymore, but the 8th edition codex covers how this works. I did find the picture I was thinking of online, but not the full text. It has a blurb:

Quote

Tactical Flexibility

The newly rewritten Codex Astartes allows for each Battle Company to be reinforced with additional troops reassigned from the Reserve Companies. These seconded battle-brothers typically form squads XI and upwards. Once attached to a Battle Company, it is standard practice for the newly joined reserve squads to take new markings corresponding to their new company, although the rapid nature of war does not always afford such a formality.

And then the picture shows the 2nd Company with a strength of 12 squads, the normal 10 plus squads from the 6th and 8th in 2nd Company markings. This is where things get Rules Lawyer-y because it doesn't seem like a big difference from how things used to be done. However, Guilliman gave himself wriggle room with this change because the Reserve Company squads used to explicitly still be in the Reserve Company when they "reinforce the main line, launch diversionary attacks or counter enemy manoeuvres." Now, by being reassigned and taking new company colors, that leaves a gap in the Reserve Company which kicks off the next Codex imperative of the Reserve Companies: "The Reserve Companies also provide the Battle Companies with a source of ready replacements for casualties. This enables the Chapter to keep its main line at full fighting strength as fully trained and experienced Space Marines are readily available to the main line Squads." The idea being that the Reserve Companies have to be kept as close to 100 Marines at all times so they can replace casualties in the Battle Companies. Is it the best logic? No, not at all, but it's slippery enough that an Inquisitor probably couldn't complain too much.

[Arkangilos]

6 hours ago, jaxom said:

I don't have my copy anymore, but the 8th edition codex covers how this works. I did find the picture I was thinking of online, but not the full text. It has a blurb:

And then the picture shows the 2nd Company with a strength of 12 squads, the normal 10 plus squads from the 6th and 8th in 2nd Company markings. This is where things get Rules Lawyer-y because it doesn't seem like a big difference from how things used to be done. However, Guilliman gave himself wriggle room with this change because the Reserve Company squads used to explicitly still be in the Reserve Company when they "reinforce the main line, launch diversionary attacks or counter enemy manoeuvres." Now, by being reassigned and taking new company colors, that leaves a gap in the Reserve Company which kicks off the next Codex imperative of the Reserve Companies: "The Reserve Companies also provide the Battle Companies with a source of ready replacements for casualties. This enables the Chapter to keep its main line at full fighting strength as fully trained and experienced Space Marines are readily available to the main line Squads." The idea being that the Reserve Companies have to be kept as close to 100 Marines at all times so they can replace casualties in the Battle Companies. Is it the best logic? No, not at all, but it's slippery enough that an Inquisitor probably couldn't complain too much.

So I like what you said and it makes sense, and I’ll probably run my army that way, but I don’t think that is how it is meant to be read. To me it reads like the guys from the reserve company take on the colors of the battle company they join, and when they return to their own company or are attached to another company they change their colors again, which is mentioned by: 

“The Codex, however, makes provisions for there to be twenty squads, for when squads from the reserve companies are attached. ”

And the part from your quote that said, “although the rapid nature of wardoes not always afford such a formality.”

 

HOWEVER, I prefer the other way, and that’s how my dad’s homebrew chapter did it even way back. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Sword Brother Adelard]

7 hours ago, Arikel said:

This is pretty interesting. The numbers implied would have to be huge to genuinely surprise the primarch. Perhaps enough for several thousand chapters of marines, versus the vague 1000 chapter limit rule previously followed by the empire.

 

Guilliman later says that an estimated 70% of the first-born chapters were of his line.

Which is a problem, as there shouldn't be such a primacy of one gene-line, the legions were designed to be able to complement eachother.

So he ordered Cawl to ensure that his own gene-line is no longer pre-eminent and create equal numbers for each gene-line.

Which could mean two possible things. First, it could mean that Cawl made more non-UM Primaris to bring everyone else up to parity. Second, it could mean that he made equal proportions of each gene-line, but made such a ridiculous amount that the UM's previous majority became insignificant?

Either way, it's a LOT of marines.

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

So I like what you said and it makes sense, and I’ll probably run my army that way, but I don’t think that is how it is meant to be read. To me it reads like the guys from the reserve company take on the colors of the battle company they join, and when they return to their own company or are attached to another company they change their colors again, which is mentioned by: 

“The Codex, however, makes provisions for there to be twenty squads, for when squads from the reserve companies are attached. ”

And the part from your quote that said, “although the rapid nature of wardoes not always afford such a formality.”

 

HOWEVER, I prefer the other way, and that’s how my dad’s homebrew chapter did it even way back. 

Yep and that’s why I like it. It’s almost like Guilliman trying to have something to point at and say, “See, still limited to 100 marines per company; don’t mind all the new recruits.”

[Arikel]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Yep and that’s why I like it. It’s almost like Guilliman trying to have something to point at and say, “See, still limited to 100 marines per company; don’t mind all the new recruits.”

Only 1000 marines or so per chapter still, wouldn’t want them to get too powerful. Oh you meant how MANY new chapters? Just a few you know, enough to bring my brother’s sons equivalent to my own. Nothing to concern yourself with, just trying to be fair.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 4/11/2023 at 2:49 AM, Arkangilos said:

I don't think he threw it out the window, though. From what I've seen there is still a *rough* 1,000 limit per chapter, not including scouts. 

 

Before it was a *rough* 1,000 limit per chapter including scouts.

It doesn’t seem like that.

 

when guilliman set out for Baal with thousands of marines to reinforce the sons of sanguinius he had no way of knowing that he’d arrive only just in time, and that BA and many other successor chapters would be absolutely decimated, yet he brought enough marines to bring each chapter back up to full strength or even above their codex levels of strength.

[Arikel]

Some maths for fun.

 

Some Assumptions used for simplicty:  Total original space marines:  let's assume 1,000,000, with 68% ultramarine, and 32% Others (based on the roughly 70% estimate given above)

                                                               Assume equal distribution of others, so 4% for each chapter (we know canonically this is wrong, but it's really for ease of calculation)

                                                               Cawl creates enough space marines of other chapters to bring them all to be equal to ultramarines in numbers

 

This would give us 680,000 Ultras, and 40,000 for each of the other 8 legions (would blood lines or genelines be a better descriptor?)

So simply to bring the other legions to be equal in number that would be 640000 new marines per legion, for a total of 5120000 new marines, 5.8 million marines total including the original amount of ultramarines descendants .

 

We do know that Cawl did make ultramarine Primaris as well, not just as replacements for the current chapters that were understrength, but sufficient enough to create entire brand new chapters of Primaris just of ultramarine descent to plop down on new homeworlds.

 

So assuming that Cawl and Roboute's goals were to not only equalize the disparity between the legions but also to create additional chapters and space marines overall, I'd say we are looking ,conservatively, at close to 7 million marines. I would not put 10 million+ out of the ballpark as a new total.                           

[jaxom]

Nice, about 3 million more than what may have roughly constitutes the Great Crusade.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Insanity!

[The Emperors Champion22]

Honestly i wish that they would remove the 1,000 marine limit on chapters, it makes more sense that the chapters  would be much larger. I wouldn’t have them return to legion strength but at least have a few thousand, up to tens of thousands for chapters like the ultramarines, dark angels, and black templars. If you needed to explain it in lore just say that Guilliman removed the limit to allow the space marines to be in more warzones and better help the imperium. But they will never get to the old legion strengths because all the constant fighting/ rate of attrition. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

Honestly i wish that they would remove the 1,000 marine limit on chapters, it makes more sense that the chapters  would be much larger. I wouldn’t have them return to legion strength but at least have a few thousand, up to tens of thousands for chapters like the ultramarines, dark angels, and black templars. If you needed to explain it in lore just say that Guilliman removed the limit to allow the space marines to be in more warzones and better help the imperium. But they will never get to the old legion strengths because all the constant fighting/ rate of attrition. 

I think they’re moving that way, in lore normalizing it.

guilliman has had so much push back that he has to be careful about what he does and how he does it.

 

the cap is no longer the hard cap it used to be, and no one will think twice about a chapter having a few hundred more marines than 1000.

[Arikel]

There are precedents for going over in game already, most notably with the black templars. It’s likely the spacewolves exceeded the limit also, but been awhile since I read their codex to be sure. There was also a succesor chapter ( the exorcists maybe?) noted as maintaining their scout company at least triple regular size as they went particularly hard on their new recruits.

 

Also worth mentioning is that chapter and company command, the reclusiarchy, the Librarius, Apothecarion and the techmarines of the Armoury never seemed to be counted as part of the 1000 marine numbers for a chapter.

 

it also seemed to me anyways to be an awfully low limit, even considering marines at lore-level toughness, one million would not be nearly enough to properly defend the imperium given it’s implied huge size.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, Arikel said:

There are precedents for going over in game already, most notably with the black templars. It’s likely the spacewolves exceeded the limit also, but been awhile since I read their codex to be sure. There was also a succesor chapter ( the exorcists maybe?) noted as maintaining their scout company at least triple regular size as they went particularly hard on their new recruits.

 

Also worth mentioning is that chapter and company command, the reclusiarchy, the Librarius, Apothecarion and the techmarines of the Armoury never seemed to be counted as part of the 1000 marine numbers for a chapter.

 

it also seemed to me anyways to be an awfully low limit, even considering marines at lore-level toughness, one million would not be nearly enough to properly defend the imperium given it’s implied huge size.

Those are exceptions, and the BT have crusade fleets out all the time so hards hard for anyone aside from helbrecht to know exactly how many brothers there are.

the SW are fairly well known for being codex deviant and have been attacked by the inquisition several times as a result.

 

also exactly. They’re not supposed to be able to protect the whole imperium effectively, the story wouldn’t be very compelling if they could.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The limit has well and truly gone. Guilliman gave the Space Wolves THOUSANDS when he arrived at Fenris in their Dawn of Fire book.

[Captain Idaho]

Thinking on this subject, I'm not sure there can be more than 1 million Marines unless there truly isn't a limit on Chapter size. Codex Space Marines seems to imply it isn't changed despite novels telling us about delivery of thousands of Marines. 

 

So that's obviously contradictory. Where does the truth lie on that? After casualties, which the Space Wolves for example suffered badly, where did their numbers settle?

 

It's interesting information to glean. In particular the numbers of Chapters is the greatest tell - are there more or less after the losses the Imperium suffered? If the amount of Marines a Chapter has is still 1000, then I find it quite implausible (in an in universe manner) for there to be 3 times the number of Chapters to reach levels of 3 million.

 

In essence there's either the same number of Marines, maybe a few more if we assume there's more new Chapters than what were destroyed, UNLESS there's no limit or an increased limit on Chapter sizes. Which I'm inclined to say there's still a limit in place as per Codex Space Marines and the Ultramarines supplement.

 

So I'd say, losses included, the current timeline sees us with a similar number of Marines we always had.

 

I think replacements are much quicker but losses much higher in this end times sort of time.

[Felix Antipodes]

We know that there have been over 100 new (Primaris only) Chapters raised from the Ultima Founding.  We also know that they topped up all previously existing Chapters (that they could locate) to close to the their optimal number.  Unless they were at Baal or fighting on in the Nachmund Gulf, the Imperium has had only limited success in locating/reinforcing those Chapters who operated north of the Rift.  It took over 100 years for a Torchbearer Fleet to reach the Emperor’s Spears for instance.

While I don’t think all those Chapters are lost, those that survive will be under-manned and/or resourced.

Because of this I think we can say that the Primaris replacements balance the losses from the formation of the Rift and Nihilus.  Cawl probably has more on ice though, scattered throughout the galaxy (including in Nihilus imho).

TLDR: Numbers remain roughly the same.