What’s the current estimate for marine numbers?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Felix Antipodes said:

We know that there have been over 100 new (Primaris only) Chapters raised from the Ultima Founding.  We also know that they topped up all previously existing Chapters (that they could locate) to close to the their optimal number.  Unless they were at Baal or fighting on in the Nachmund Gulf, the Imperium has had only limited success in locating/reinforcing those Chapters who operated north of the Rift.  It took over 100 years for a Torchbearer Fleet to reach the Emperor’s Spears for instance.

While I don’t think all those Chapters are lost, those that survive will be under-manned and/or resourced.

Because of this I think we can say that the Primaris replacements balance the losses from the formation of the Rift and Nihilus.  Cawl probably has more on ice though, scattered throughout the galaxy (including in Nihilus imho).

TLDR: Numbers remain roughly the same.

Idk other posters have quoted the lore and it seems like there’s a lot more marines in total than there were before

[Captain Idaho]

100 new Chapters is still only 100K Marines approximately. (More with command and support staff)

 

Just doesn't seem like there will be loads extra. And with losses... I dunno, can't be more than status quo really. Unless the greatest battles of our age of total and constant war just aren't such a big deal.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

8 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

 It took over 100 years for a Torchbearer Fleet to reach the Emperor’s Spears for instance.

 

That's not the case - it was over a hundred years before the ship in the novel was sent to check up on the Emperor's Spears, but they'd had Primaris for a long time before that. All the Emperor's Spears in that novel were Primaris marines. What they didn't have was any knowledge of the Rubicon. But that novel was written at a time when Vigilus was set in the "now" of early 8th edition, which was post-Indomitus Crusade. And Calgar had been first to undergo the procedure just prior to setting out on the trip that would eventually see him diverted to Vigilus. So over a century had passed between the Torchbearer Fleets setting out and the Rubicon being crossed.

 

That lore of course is no longer the case - now, the Rubicon was crossed within the first decade of the Primaris marines being thawed out.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Lord Nord

[Arikel]

7 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

100 new Chapters is still only 100K Marines approximately. (More with command and support staff)

 

Just doesn't seem like there will be loads extra. And with losses... I dunno, can't be more than status quo really. Unless the greatest battles of our age of total and constant war just aren't such a big deal.

I hear you but I really do think the number is much much higher than that. In the book snippet RG is introduced to 24,000 marines standing ready to go, with another 5000 per ship that cawl brought being mentioned(number of ships not provided). Cawl then says this merely a modest beginning, the tip of the spear as it were. He then states that he has many more stashed around the imperium, and the true number not only surprises RG, but gives him hope that the empire might not be doomed.

 

A mere hundred thousand wouldn’t provoke that kind of reaction in my opinion. Not enough to stave off the doom of mankind. But millions? Now Roboute sees a fighting chance for the imperium to survive.

 

[Felix Antipodes]

I think in this scenario it will depend on where Cawl stashed those extra Primaris around the Imperium.  He may have millions more still in stasis but it would count as nothing if most were sequestered somewhere within what is now Imperium Nihilus where they cannot be reached or activated.

 

That would make a good story actually.  A task force sent across the Nachmund Gulf to revive those in stasis, maybe an oversized Torchbearer fleet?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

20 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

The limit has well and truly gone. Guilliman gave the Space Wolves THOUSANDS when he arrived at Fenris in their Dawn of Fire book.

I don’t think you understand what “the Space Wolves are not codex compliant,” means…

 

Isn’t this topic an area where the fluff just isn’t reliable? The Ultramarines supplement still says companies consist of 100 marines. I know those that love their legalese language will claim that’s false because there’s many more marines than 100 in a company.. fine. However, as military forces are calculated it’s typically the strength of the combatants, the “trigger pullers” if you will, that dictates that number. I don’t care about support personnel and leadership to an extent.

 

The novel issue.. An author has the freedom to take the lore in the direction they see fit (for their story) and all of a sudden that’s (conflicting) cannon? That doesn’t make sense to me. I haven’t seen anything authoritative that fits the claim Guilliman did away with the codex and chapters are larger now. This thread only further solidifies that position for me.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I don’t think you understand what “the Space Wolves are not codex compliant,” means…

They might not be, but if guilliman still stood by the codex astartes, then he wouldn’t be bringing multiple chapters worth of reinforcements to ANY chapter.

 

SW beliefs has nothing to do with how guilliman acts.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They might not be, but if guilliman still stood by the codex astartes, then he wouldn’t be bringing multiple chapters worth of reinforcements to ANY chapter.

 

SW beliefs has nothing to do with how guilliman acts.

And yet his beliefs did not prevent him from letting his brothers son’s do their thing.

 

The situation dictated the SWs needed that many… so that’s what they got.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Arkangilos]

42 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They might not be, but if guilliman still stood by the codex astartes, then he wouldn’t be bringing multiple chapters worth of reinforcements to ANY chapter.

 

SW beliefs has nothing to do with how guilliman acts.

He allowed it post heresy. I think the idea is that because they can’t have successors (or couldn’t at the time), he probably would have given a lot of leeway.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Sword Brother Adelard]

3 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

23 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Snip

I don’t think you understand what “the Space Wolves are not codex compliant,” means…

Oh, I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

 

What happened was, Guilliman, (the one who wrote the codex), completely unbidden by the Space Wolves, and in the face of direct hostility and initial refusal by them, gave them thousands of battle ready Primaris marines. Without the Wolves even asking for them.

 

 So in that scenario, the codex compliance or not of the Space Wolves is completely irrelevant. Because it’s Guilliman throwing the limit out of the window.

 

I know what Codex compliance means, I’ve been playing Templars since Codex: Armageddon!

[b1soul]

A million loyalist Firstborn plus X number of Primaris, but X is a mystery, no?

 

7 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

I don’t think you understand what “the Space Wolves are not codex compliant,” means…

 

I always assumed the SW had anywhere from 1500 to maybe 3000 marines on the very high end, based on the fact that Great Companies can be significantly larger than Codex companies, but the chapter wouldn't be anywhere close to legion size.

 

I mean, even 10,000 marines in a single chapter would draw a lot of unwanted attention imo.

[Arkangilos]

11 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Because it’s Guilliman throwing the limit out of the window.

I still don’t think he threw the limit out the window.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

15 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

I still don’t think he threw the limit out the window.

He doesn't seem to be doing much to enforce it. Giving the two chapters already well in excess of the limit (Wolves and Templars) a considerable number of new troops and equipment.

 

He may come back to it later, but right now, it's just not a priority.

[Arkangilos]

1 minute ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

19 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

 

He doesn't seem to be doing much to enforce it. Giving the two chapters already well in excess of the limit (Wolves and Templars) a considerable number of new troops and equipment.

 

He may come back to it later, but right now, it's just not a priority.

I think it’s just a matter of priorities. Most chapters follow the codex, and most have less “political clout” if they were going to be punished. 
 

Also, the SW were pretty depleted and the BT were scattered in all directions on crusades. He may not have even known they weren’t complaint when he gave them forces (and at that time the SW probably weren’t over 1,000 men anyways).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yes, they were depleted, but he still gave them thousandS plural. This isn't simply topping them up to complement, this was him deliberately giving them a mass of troops to go out and fight with.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

And yet his beliefs did not prevent him from letting his brothers son’s do their thing.

 

The situation dictated the SWs needed that many… so that’s what they got.

Ergo he threw the codex out the window

[Bloody Legionnaire]

33 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

 

He doesn't seem to be doing much to enforce it. Giving the two chapters already well in excess of the limit (Wolves and Templars) a considerable number of new troops and equipment.

 

He may come back to it later, but right now, it's just not a priority.

Probably because SW had the higher numbers in the first place and reinforcing to 1000 only is again, not what the situation dictates. If you can’t conceptualize that then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

21 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Ergo he threw the codex out the window

 

The SM codex still states codex compliant chapters follow 10 companies of 1000 battle-brothers. If you can consider an exception of policy to remedy a bad situation thrown “out the window” then why would the rest of the chapters continue to comply, including G-man himself? That is not evidence of throwing the codex out the window, they still follow it!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

4 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Probably because SW had the higher numbers in the first place and reinforcing to 1000 only is again, not what the situation dictates. If you can’t conceptualize that then I don’t know what to tell you

 

I'm very sorry dear chap. I don't understand how what this says doesn't agree with my point? But you've written it as if we disagree, I judge by the somewhat antagonistic tone.

 

Perhaps you could redraft it please?

[jaxom]

9 hours ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Probably because SW had the higher numbers in the first place and reinforcing to 1000 only is again, not what the situation dictates. If you can’t conceptualize that then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

 

The SM codex still states codex compliant chapters follow 10 companies of 1000 battle-brothers. If you can consider an exception of policy to remedy a bad situation thrown “out the window” then why would the rest of the chapters continue to comply, including G-man himself? That is not evidence of throwing the codex out the window, they still follow it!

I’m pretty sure one of the Guilliman trilogy has bit where he regrets the whole Chapter thing. I know for sure he’s authorizing Legion-size organization and deployment in the latest Dawn of Fire book.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 4/14/2023 at 2:20 PM, Bloody Legionnaire said:

Probably because SW had the higher numbers in the first place and reinforcing to 1000 only is again, not what the situation dictates. If you can’t conceptualize that then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

 

The SM codex still states codex compliant chapters follow 10 companies of 1000 battle-brothers. If you can consider an exception of policy to remedy a bad situation thrown “out the window” then why would the rest of the chapters continue to comply, including G-man himself? That is not evidence of throwing the codex out the window, they still follow it!

G-man has already come out and been shocked at how they’ve been treating the codex astartes.

 

Chapters choosing to follow the old ways doesn’t mean the codex hasnt gone out the window

Edited April 15, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[spessmarine]

When it comes to numbers, stuff is kind of bad due to GW historically not being the best with them. So you had in the past tanks with specs that were worse than WW2 tanks and massive conflicts that ended up with less personnel involved than actual historical conflicts.

Space marine numbers is another case. A number of 1000 is not that much, and the old 1000 chapters of 1000 marines for a million total isn't much at all for the scale of a galaxy.

A chapter really can't take many casualties or deploy that many dudes, one wiped out Thunderhawk and you've got a shorthanded chapter.

 

At least with legion sizes, 100,000, things are a bit nicer. You can deploy 10,000 marines to a shock assault on some high value target and take 1000 casualties in the process without being utterly crippled or having to pull forces away from other battlegrounds.
So Primaris gives a chance to retcon that in a way.

[Beta galactosidase]

Yeah but one, why say this like it’s everyone’s first day on kelbor hal’s Internet and we’ve never heard it before?

 

More importantly, in this game we’re concerned with the fates of three to a few dozen space marines, depending on the novel or game.  That’s one fraction of the current strength of a thousands of years old chapter, whatever size the chapter is.  There’s no game or novel where our involvement is to design and debate the  cost effectiveness of different  tables of organization. There aren’t any victory points awarded for that

[MegaVolt87]

Talking OG firstborn, a battle company has 8 rhinos, 6 for the tac squads, 2 for the devestator units, the cpt would need a razorback or rhino, so 9 transports. That's an extra 18 marines, 18 by 4 battle companies, 72 marines extra there. 6-7th companies, x11 rhinos for tac squads + command 22 crew, so 44 total. 8th co devestator, 11 rhino, 22 crew. Current count - 72+44+22=138 extra marines. 9th assault company, if they are all jump pack equiped, no transpo. But, they can deploy minus jump pack, so they would need acess to x11 rhinos, 22 crew, so those rhinos could end up in the general chapter motor pool instead to grab as needed. The count is 160 marines extra now. 1st co is a special case, they would likely use LR's from the general armoured pool. To fully man every armoured asset in a chapter, motor pool I would guess a minimum of 100 marines to pilot everything, excluding the 8th co rhinos which may be shuffled into the pool in the count as on top (122). The real paper strength of a first born chapter would be at least 1,260 space marines. You would not be wasting line squad numbers on vechicles crew, otherwise you would have things like 8 man tac squads etc. 44 rhinos in the battle companies, 22 in the tac reserve companies, another 11 on hand for the assault company, 77 rhinos total. Since marine armoured units are rare, x50 mix of LR, preads, speeders, relic Legion era tanks etc seems like a reasonable number for the average chapter. I don't consider bikes to be particularly tech rare compared to other units in the big picture so there is as many or as few depending on chapter doctrine, these are handed around to use to the assault company or the battle companies for the assault squad to drive. Techmarines fall outside of line forces, so managing a motor pool of at least 127 armoured vehicles is really going to depend on how automated the chapter is. I think you would need at least 30 techmarines to manage everything, including the dreadnoughts 10-20 average in number and of different maintenance difficulties, boxnaughts to the more rare contemptors and Levi's. The real chapter strength would be closer to 1,300 in the end count. 

 

Consider the chapter reforms by RG did not really account for the future technology decline, degraded recruitment, more difficult logistics. The Legions at the second founding when they became contemporary chapters, were at a technological peak despite the HH and scouring, so the average strength and structure were far superior then compared to now, which is why the initial codex astartes was a failure, it was re-written later, and primaris introduced vs a firstborn revival via a helm memory core event like battle tech. The 40k helm memory core event trope was done with primaris with Cawl instead. 

8 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by MegaVolt87

[BrainFireBob]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:42 AM, Captain Idaho said:

Thinking on this subject, I'm not sure there can be more than 1 million Marines unless there truly isn't a limit on Chapter size. Codex Space Marines seems to imply it isn't changed despite novels telling us about delivery of thousands of Marines. 

 

So that's obviously contradictory. Where does the truth lie on that? After casualties, which the Space Wolves for example suffered badly, where did their numbers settle?

 

It's interesting information to glean. In particular the numbers of Chapters is the greatest tell - are there more or less after the losses the Imperium suffered? If the amount of Marines a Chapter has is still 1000, then I find it quite implausible (in an in universe manner) for there to be 3 times the number of Chapters to reach levels of 3 million.

 

In essence there's either the same number of Marines, maybe a few more if we assume there's more new Chapters than what were destroyed, UNLESS there's no limit or an increased limit on Chapter sizes. Which I'm inclined to say there's still a limit in place as per Codex Space Marines and the Ultramarines supplement.

 

So I'd say, losses included, the current timeline sees us with a similar number of Marines we always had.

 

I think replacements are much quicker but losses much higher in this end times sort of time.

Missed this, frater.

 

It's not contradictory if you take the Grey Shields and Indomitus fleets as *extra*- that Gman restored the 1000 chapters and is crusading *with the rest.*

Only way I see it reconciling.

[Captain Idaho]

Very possible but didn't Guilliman essentially disband the Grey Shields, sending them to their parents Chapters or forming new ones?