True Scale vs. Heroic Scale

[b1soul]

Anyone here prefer the big-head, more cartoony heroic scale?

 

I have to admit it does have its charm for a space fantasy setting populated by incredible races and beings...and of course nostalgia, and maybe more kid-friendly...makes the big armoured men and green murder-fungus look less realistic and less scary

 

Heroic scale you will be missed 

[NovemberIX]

I loved it, for me it recalls the days of 8-bit JRPGs with its super deformed characters. Charm is the perfect description of the look. but all good things...

[Emperor Ming]

Heroic scale isn't going anywhere

[b1soul]

52 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Heroic scale isn't going anywhere

Looks like it'll be phased out for SM (with classic marine types moving to true scale as well) and in the longer term, possibly the entire tabletop range 

 

1 hour ago, NovemberIX said:

I loved it, for me it recalls the days of 8-bit JRPGs with its super deformed characters. Charm is the perfect description of the look. but all good things...

 That 8 bit analogy is spot on...it's like the charm of the pixelated marines here: https://www.heresyomnibus.com/

[gideon stargreave]

For me, the earliest marine sculpts portrayed this better. The improved posability and sharper detail somehow made the cartoonish nature of heroic scale worse. At least side by side. Of course, before the advent of true scale , I thought my marines looked awesome and I’ll always have a soft spot for my 5th Ed blood angels, but now it’s rogue trader or true scale (or art scale) 

[Xenith]

7 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Heroic scale isn't going anywhere

 

The New Mk6 beakies have dramatically smaller heads than other beakies, almost 1/3 smaller. I haven't considered it in the scope of moving away from heroic scale but the hands might be smaller also? The guns are arbout the same size while the model has gotten bigger. I think the new Cadians have seen these changes also. 

 

I think it's maybe more  consequence of modern tech being able to produce detailed facial sculpts on a smaller scale than in the 1980's when the heroic scale was used. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Xenith

[Arkangilos]

I'm torn. I prefer the new sculps (though I'm not a fan of the limited customization they come with), but I hate how they make the older models look when together. Not so much because I can't tolerate it, but because it really seems to upset my dad. Like, he likes how the Primaris looks, but gets bummed out when they are next to all his other guys he has collected over the years.

 

 

[Brother Christopher]

I mean, I started way back in 5th edition and accepted the 40k aesthetic for what it was. As such, I never had a problem with wonky Terminators, gorrila-arm Tacticals or most of the vehicle designs. I still don't have a problem with most of these things - probably based on nostalgia and accepting the thing's I grew up with as the standard.

 

Right now, I can't shake the feeling that's lurking in the back of my mind that I'm disappointed with the uneven scale creep making my collection of squat marines look silly by comparison. It's a mixture of different resentments: the "let the old die" philosophy and the "work in progress" nature of the scale change.

 

Personally, I would have been fine with GW just refining the existing kits (like with the last Tactical Squad upgrade), without adding more types of units and factions. The quality of models in 5-7 editions was good enough and I'd prefer if GW focused more on making a fun, balanced game instead of focusing on driving sales and constantly adding more the the 40k line-up. However, I am fully aware that I'm in the minority here and people and business like a stream of new kits.

 

So yeah, I prefer that scale but mostly for selfish reasons ;) I feel that there was a time when most armies' miniatures were using the same scale and that there was a lot of charm and soul involved. But I supposed that's nostalgia talk. I'd just personally prefer if my models weren't becoming obsolete-by-comparison and were in-line with models from other ranges in terms of scale.

 

Maybe GW could have used a different scale for their other games/products (e.g. Kill Team) instead of introducing new scales of models into the main 40k game. That way we'd have better-proportioned, more realistic models (Space Marines...) without introducing the mess we have now in the primary product.

[Jings]

9 hours ago, Brother Christopher said:

Personally, I would have been fine with GW just refining the existing kits (like with the last Tactical Squad upgrade), without adding more types of units and factions. The quality of models in 5-7 editions was good enough and I'd prefer if GW focused more on making a fun, balanced game instead of focusing on driving sales and constantly adding more the the 40k line-up. However, I am fully aware that I'm in the minority here and people and business like a stream of new kits.

 

 

As a slight aside, if that's a minority opinion I don't think it's a particularly small minority. I have a sneaking suspicion that the big push over the past couple years of new units over revamps/reimaginings is down to baiting competitive players who are much more likely to buy the new flavour of the month units. If they're new and broken they get bought en masse for tournament play, whereas if they're revamped older units they'll just get older kits off eBay or whatever to use instead. That's why we're seeing most of the renewed kits in starter boxes (Death Guard Plague Marines, Necrons, upcoming Tyranids) - they'll sell in those boxes regardless. 

[Scribe]

Will they even be able to top Lemartes current sculpt? I have my doubts.

[Doghouse]

I hope heroic scale remains in some form somewhere because it is most often hand sculpted.

 

Truescale is basically the evolution in sculpting technology to me. Back in the day I think heroic scale was just easier to sculpt with the larger heads and hands but I was surprised to see that GW continued with it once three up technology first came into play.

 

Nowadays I think they would fall behind if they didn't utilise the new fangled technology and go for more credible scaled models. I still don't think they are there yet with the correct proportions though. I'd call today's models slightly less heroic scale rather than proper truescale.

 

 

[b1soul]

Maybe not 100% true scale but I think it's quite close, noting that SM power armour is probably why it perhaps can't be 100% true scaled to a naked human.

 

 

Would still say it's closer to true than heroic, rather than vice versa imo

[Arkangilos]

5 hours ago, b1soul said:

Maybe not 100% true scale but I think it's quite close, noting that SM power armour is probably why it perhaps can't be 100% true scaled to a naked human.

 

 

Would still say it's closer to true than heroic, rather than vice versa imo

Oh what could have been :(

[Brother Christopher]

I feel it's also the right time to note I also enjoyed the smaller footprint of the older models. But that's another matter: I think that the size of models is really getting out of hand and I can't imagine storing or showcasing a Primaris equivalent of my collection. Also, I suppose that the older design also helped the miniatures double as 'game pieces' - the large weapons were easier to distinguish within a squad; rank and file troops (with their boring poses) were easier to distinguish from characters. Now, we have a selection of cooler models, with unique poses and an overabundance of weapons but I feel it makes the game more complicated and less 'legible.' I'm sure that I'm not being thorough here, but take Intercessors' or Hellblasters' different variants of guns or a wide selection of Primaris Lieutenants who are basically your regular Phobos/Tacticus dudes.

[b1soul]

Heroic Scale is basically the Chunky Boys Scale most grew up with...so I do think a lot of the attachment is childhood nostalgia on my part

[Special Officer Doofy]

For how much we pay for the models I prefer true scale. Nothing wrong heroic scale, but I just don't think it looks as good.

[Firedrake Cordova]

I don't know if it's just the "nostalgia googles" (I grew up with 40K 2nd Ed, Necromunda, and WHFB 4th Ed), but my personal preference is for "heroic scale" over "true scale".

 

From what I remember, heroic scale's origins were to do with the models being hand-sculpted as "3-ups"* (i.e. 3 times larger than the final model) - ultimately, there's only so much detail a human can poke into something that size using their eyes and (fundamentally) a pointy stick, and the face (along with hands and weapon) form the focal point of the model so end up a bit bigger to get more detail. I think there may have been some issues with component thickness on the weapons from a casting perspective as well. Nowadays, everything's sculpted on a computer and can be blown up infinitely on the display. I think I saw the Perry twins had a discussion about it in a YouTube video...

 

I have some "true scale" models from other companies (Rackham and Infinity), and whilst they are lovely models, some of the components definitely feel a bit on the fragile side, and parts of them do feel a bit on the small side when painting them - I found this this is especially the case as your eyes age.

 

Ultimately, I'm just happy if people get the models they like

 

* This was definitely the case for plastic models. I'm not sure if the metal models were sculpted as 3-ups, or at final size.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Firedrake Cordova

[Orange Knight]

I prefer the new models in appearance and scaling. I think that there have been some duds in the range, but the average Marines and Characters look a lot better.

[Redcomet]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:33 AM, Brother Christopher said:

I mean, I started way back in 5th edition and accepted the 40k aesthetic for what it was. As such, I never had a problem with wonky Terminators, gorrila-arm Tacticals or most of the vehicle designs. I still don't have a problem with most of these things - probably based on nostalgia and accepting the thing's I grew up with as the standard.

 

Right now, I can't shake the feeling that's lurking in the back of my mind that I'm disappointed with the uneven scale creep making my collection of squat marines look silly by comparison. It's a mixture of different resentments: the "let the old die" philosophy and the "work in progress" nature of the scale change.

 

Personally, I would have been fine with GW just refining the existing kits (like with the last Tactical Squad upgrade), without adding more types of units and factions. The quality of models in 5-7 editions was good enough and I'd prefer if GW focused more on making a fun, balanced game instead of focusing on driving sales and constantly adding more the the 40k line-up. However, I am fully aware that I'm in the minority here and people and business like a stream of new kits.

 

So yeah, I prefer that scale but mostly for selfish reasons ;) I feel that there was a time when most armies' miniatures were using the same scale and that there was a lot of charm and soul involved. But I supposed that's nostalgia talk. I'd just personally prefer if my models weren't becoming obsolete-by-comparison and were in-line with models from other ranges in terms of scale.

 

Maybe GW could have used a different scale for their other games/products (e.g. Kill Team) instead of introducing new scales of models into the main 40k game. That way we'd have better-proportioned, more realistic models (Space Marines...) without introducing the mess we have now in the primary product.

Redoing the same kit again and again is sadly not a viable business model if you want growth. 

[Mandragola]

I much prefer true scale. I grew up with heroic scale marines but for me it's one of those "cannot unsee" things, where once I realised heroic scale was a thing it started looking pretty bizarre for me.

 

I play a bit of historical stuff and there's still a ton of heroic scale stuff there. I go out of my way to get true scale models. I think it looks pretty bizarre when you have things like heroic scale heads sticking out of tanks. Lots of people actually buy bigger scale vehicles so they don't look like clown cars with heroic scale crew.

[b1soul]

32 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Lots of people actually buy bigger scale vehicles so they don't look like clown cars with heroic scale crew.

 

Made me spit out my drink lol

[Mandragola]

Yeah it's this kind of thing. The driver's head is way too big for the tank. I've got three of these but used crew from a different manufacturer (Perry) who have true scale proportions.

 

[Lexington]

There’s definitely more realistic proportions between different parts of most models’ bodies these days, yes, but are we sure Heroic Scale is completely gone?

 

[b1soul]

12 minutes ago, Lexington said:

There’s definitely more realistic proportions between different parts of most models’ bodies these days, yes, but are we sure Heroic Scale is completely gone?

 

Lol...it could be a very light material?

[Brother Christopher]

3 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Redoing the same kit again and again is sadly not a viable business model if you want growth. 

 

Yeah, that's the problem. And it's clear that GW wants exponential, engagement-driven growth and won't settle for anything less. On top of that, they know their audience/customers well but that's a different topic altogether.

 

The nature of this topic is very subjective. I must say, in principle, I like the newer scale of Astartes models. Then again, I don't have anything against the older scale. I just wish that they weren't as mutually exclusive as I find them to be.

 

The funny thing with the new scale/aesthetic of models, particularly Primaris, is that I find them wonky in their own way. Apart from me trying to "vote with my wallet" and not buy stuff from GW, I never got any Primaris infantry for my army because after inspecting them, I've always concluded that they aren't really that great. The whole is worse than the sum of its parts. I prefer the bigger size but am definitely not a fan of the design (and uniformity) of the new armour marks. I'm particularly angry with myself for not liking the new Sword Brethren Kit

 

Sure, the increased size and proportions make Primaris models look more appealing at first glance but I find the coolness of the design extremely superficial. The legs, particularly the shin guards of Tacticus and Gravis armour, are too thick; most running Primaris look like they are about to stumble; Heavy Intercessors or the Melta-Gravis-Dudes (one of the top-three Primaris kits I've been eyeing) have an absolutely ridiculous chest circumference; the often times uninspired aesthetic (compulsory tactical rocks for most HQs or the very little diversity in armour).

 

So, yeah, the Primaris line fixed a lot of OG Marines' problems (e.g., the tactical squat, the stubby-ness) but introduced a whole bunch of other problems that I don't see being discussed often. I suppose it's because Primaris are the new standard: they are taken for granted as "vastly superior" without much thought, while the older design/scale is being subjected to more critique and scrutiny.