Anyone feel the Great Crusade timeline should be retconned?

[MegaVolt87]

Thinking more about this, the timeline is also woefully under filled for those 200 years events wise. 

[WolfLogic]

2 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Thinking more about this, the timeline is also woefully under filled for those 200 years events wise. 

That's not really the problem though, the problem is that 200 years really isn't long enough to get the bare minimum of the Imperium. They have to travel to at least a million worlds, which takes time. They have to engage in new planets in diplomacy and failing that, conquer said planet. They have to muster enough troops to successfully wage war, which takes time. They have to completely exterminate entire species (xenos), which would take a really long time. 

 

Basically 200 years isn't enough to get the Imperium to where it's supposed to be. 

[Jamafore]

Was it a million at the end of the Crusade though? Figure that there have been times in the lore that the Imperium has expanded (Macharian Crusade, a period in M34 I think is mentioned, etc), and I think the million is just the current numbers. That could account for some of the discrepency.

 

If it had to lengthen, I don't think it would have to be by much, another 100-200 years at most. The biggest snag for me is Qruze. With the question floating around for marine lifespan in the early HH books, Qruze was already stated to be old, and with the current marines specified to be centuries old commonly, how old is he to be specifically mentioned as an Old Man?

[WolfLogic]

9 hours ago, Jamafore said:

Was it a million at the end of the Crusade though? Figure that there have been times in the lore that the Imperium has expanded (Macharian Crusade, a period in M34 I think is mentioned, etc), and I think the million is just the current numbers. That could account for some of the discrepency.

I'm remember one novel set during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy mentions BILLIONS of Hive Worlds. That's obviously an absurd outlier, but it is technically canon. There is also the whole thing where people say GW isn't actually saying they have 1,000,000 worlds but a unimaginably large number that can be whatever is needed for the story. Personally I like to think the Great Crusade conquered at well over a million worlds, but those million worlds are the "core" worlds of the Imperium. 

 

EDIT: The source for the billions of Hive Worlds quote is Heart of Rage

Quote

Within the chapel, one might have thought they stood inside a church upon any one of billions of hive-worlds across the Imperium.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Jamafore said:

If it had to lengthen, I don't think it would have to be by much, another 100-200 years at most. The biggest snag for me is Qruze. With the question floating around for marine lifespan in the early HH books, Qruze was already stated to be old, and with the current marines specified to be centuries old commonly, how old is he to be specifically mentioned as an Old Man?

Qruze was stated to be old because he was a Terran Legionary that didn't adapt well to the new culture introduced into the Legion that was brought about by Horus being found. He was an old soul, not actually old. Also the question about lifespans was floating around because Astartes were pretty much brand new and nobody really knew what to expect in terms of aging or lifespan. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by WolfLogic

[Karhedron]

The Great Crusade has in fact been retconned once already. In the early fluff it was only 100 years long. Here is one of the earliest pieces just before Horus entered the Warrior Lodge on Davin.

 

Quote

"Listen, Bejand. You are an outstanding staff officer, and I value your loyalty and concern. But why does one warrior-lodge initiation on one feral world disturb you so? I've gone through more than twenty of these rituals in the past. I've been a Space Marine and a commander of Marines for more than a century. You need have no fears for me."

 

And later from the Emperor and Horus by Bill King.

 

Quote

Horus is the greatest general the galaxy has ever known. Who should know better than his creator? He is schooled by a century of warfare. There will be no way out, no loopholes, no flaws in the plan. The Warmaster would have to be mad to leave one.

 

It has already been doubled once from one century to two. I doubt that they will do so again.

[WolfLogic]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I doubt that they will do so again.

I don't think the question being asked is will GW, but should GW retcon it

[Sparika]

You are thinking linearly. 
 

Firstly, if 200 years is 1 world a day and you feel it’s unrealistic then 400 years is just 1 world every two days which does not solve the realism issue. 
 

Consider rather this. If you can use one system to conquer another in 10 years, your number of system double every 10 years. Then starting from two systems you can have 2^20 = 1048576 solar system in 200 years. 210 years exactly because you start from Sol and you need to get a second one : 1*2^20. 
 

Some are free (mechanicum, empty), some you discuss (civilized), some you have to develop (under developped) and some you exterminate. But the figures are not unbelievable once we accept space marines and warp travel 

[EverythingIsGreat]

The lore (i.e. GW) has been mostly silent on the planning of the GC. Working under the assumption that the Crusade infrastructure was in place before the first expedition left the Sol system, and that the various exigencies had been baked into the plans:

 

The pre-Crusade planning, requisitions, reconnaissance missions, mapping, building of armaments, the routing and supply decisions, the diplomatic and administrative support decisions, all having multiple redundancies, could have taken several centuries.

 

Under such conditions, a 203-year action until the start of the events in Horus Rising does not seem impossible. But this is just speculation on my part.

[WolfLogic]

7 hours ago, Sparika said:

You are thinking linearly. 
 

Firstly, if 200 years is 1 world a day and you feel it’s unrealistic then 400 years is just 1 world every two days which does not solve the realism issue. 
 

Consider rather this. If you can use one system to conquer another in 10 years, your number of system double every 10 years. Then starting from two systems you can have 2^20 = 1048576 solar system in 200 years. 210 years exactly because you start from Sol and you need to get a second one : 1*2^20. 
 

Some are free (mechanicum, empty), some you discuss (civilized), some you have to develop (under developped) and some you exterminate. But the figures are not unbelievable once we accept space marines and warp travel 

I still disagree, you can't role over dozens of multi system space faring empires in only 200 years. Wars of extinction would take time, the Great Crusade is just too short to accomplish all it claims and hints to. 

[Gorgoff]

8 hours ago, WolfLogic said:

I still disagree, you can't role over dozens of multi system space faring empires in only 200 years. Wars of extinction would take time, the Great Crusade is just too short to accomplish all it claims and hints to. 

You disagree with simple math here mate.

The longer the Crusade rolls the more armies they had and the more systems they could conquer/claim at the same time.

[WolfLogic]

On 4/30/2023 at 5:09 AM, Gorgoff said:

You disagree with simple math here mate.

The longer the Crusade rolls the more armies they had and the more systems they could conquer/claim at the same time.

I'm not sure why I got a ping for this post out of nowhere, and I know your reply to me is like 9 months old, but I'd like some more details on what you mean. How does the math prove me wrong? 

[Gorgoff]

On 1/22/2024 at 2:54 AM, WolfLogic said:

I'm not sure why I got a ping for this post out of nowhere, and I know your reply to me is like 9 months old, but I'd like some more details on what you mean. How does the math prove me wrong? 

Uh..... ehrm... honestly I have to think as well what this is all about. 9 month is a very long time.

I guess that I was trying to say was that the more planets they conquered the bigger their armies got and the more they could conquer at the same time. 

[TheArtilleryman]

On 1/23/2024 at 1:04 PM, Gorgoff said:

Uh..... ehrm... honestly I have to think as well what this is all about. 9 month is a very long time.

I guess that I was trying to say was that the more planets they conquered the bigger their armies got and the more they could conquer at the same time. 

“Exponential growth”

[roryokane]

I was re-reading the 3rd Edition Space Marine Codex recently, and in the timeline provided at the back of that, the timeline appears far more stretched out - not just the crusade but the unification wars as well.