Abaddon the Despoiler Possible Mark of Chaos Ascendant changes in New Lore/Tabletop Rules

[Moonreaper666]

It's strange that modern Codexes/Novels don't mention Abaddon's Mark but I believe GW is saving that for Dan Abnett's Finale Novel for the Horus Heresy: Siege of Terra. The two-part Book would retcon the Mark and what it does

 

Just like Valten, Morathi and Archaon his different forms have different models:

 

Abaddon the Warmaster/Warrior: The basic one we know. The 40k version can learn spells or Khornate buffs but otherwise the same one

 

Abaddon the Unbound: Either manually, at random or if certain circumstances (like the Warmaster is dying, very enraged, losing his mind or going to be killed, etc) the Unique Mark's Powers come to life. Abaddon gets powered up blessings from all Four Chaos Gods, free choice of certain Chaos spells, magic resistance, better command buffs, etc. More powerful than 40k Guilliman both in the game and lore BUT there is a time limit and every bit of damage and exertion accelerates it leading too...

 

Abaddon the Warp-Chosen: Should Abaddon ever truly 100% submit to Chaos either voluntarily, still die when the Mark is active or is desperate enough then he permanently becomes the Chaos Gods' vessel/avatar similar but not the same as Horus. Even more powerful and has several free skills but losses any command buffs. This model should be able to solo the enemy army in Tabletop and Lore. Gets unique Daemon rules

 

Abaddon the Chaos God of Conquest: Represent Abaddon's ascension into a Minor Chaos God like Archaon. Can only be deployed in special games due to how powerful he is

[Ioldanach]

I'm not surprised that modern [Horus Heresy] codices/novels don't mention Abaddon's mark since the Chaos gods didn't start courting his servitude until after the death of Horus. The earliest we should see any semblance of his mark is in the Black Legion novels that A D-B is writing, these taking place after the Horus Heresy, Scouring, and Legion Wars.

 

None of the options you've presented appear to accurately represent Horus as he's presented in the lore, especially during the Horus Heresy. The whole point of Abaddon's lore is that he is resisting total submission to the Chaos gods, both individually and collectively. What lore justifies Abaddon learning spells? Is there any official lore saying that Abaddon is a psyker? He relies upon powerful sorcerers throughout the millennia, but doesn't appear to wield any psyker powers of his own (as far as I'm aware, but I don't consider myself an expert on the character). The Unbound option seems similarly iffy. While I've seen lots of speculation from hobbyists about a theoretical matchup between Abaddon and Guilliman, all of them seem to be heavily biased and subjective (even though it appears that Guilliman is given the edge in a slight majority of them). What official lore clarifies the relative power levels of each? The Warp-Chosen option is, I think, extremely imprudent. It's completely dependent upon (a) disregarding Abaddon's millennia-long refusal to submit to any/all of the Chaos gods, and (b) relies upon a further progression of the lore. It's like writing rules for a hypothetical version of Tycho if he had not succumbed to the Black Rage and had instead fallen to Chaos (just to make him even more psycho). It's fine as a personal speculation for your own hobbying efforts as well as for those that want to tinker with the setting in personal ways, but it doesn't seem like something that should ever hit the mainstream.

 

I was under the impression that Abaddon's current rules embody the blessings of all four of the Chaos gods. Are there any aspects of his current Warhammer 40,000 rules that don't adequately represent your opinion of him? Or perhaps you'd like to focus on Abaddon during the Horus Heresy, when he is much less powerful than in M41. Can you cite official lore, especially from reliable narrators or objective omniscient views (vice unreliable narrators), that backs up your estimation of what Abaddon's powers/mark should be?

[Moonreaper666]

15 hours ago, Ioldanach said:

I'm not surprised that modern [Horus Heresy] codices/novels don't mention Abaddon's mark since the Chaos gods didn't start courting his servitude until after the death of Horus. The earliest we should see any semblance of his mark is in the Black Legion novels that A D-B is writing, these taking place after the Horus Heresy, Scouring, and Legion Wars.

 

None of the options you've presented appear to accurately represent Horus as he's presented in the lore, especially during the Horus Heresy. The whole point of Abaddon's lore is that he is resisting total submission to the Chaos gods, both individually and collectively. What lore justifies Abaddon learning spells? Is there any official lore saying that Abaddon is a psyker? He relies upon powerful sorcerers throughout the millennia, but doesn't appear to wield any psyker powers of his own (as far as I'm aware, but I don't consider myself an expert on the character). The Unbound option seems similarly iffy. While I've seen lots of speculation from hobbyists about a theoretical matchup between Abaddon and Guilliman, all of them seem to be heavily biased and subjective (even though it appears that Guilliman is given the edge in a slight majority of them). What official lore clarifies the relative power levels of each? The Warp-Chosen option is, I think, extremely imprudent. It's completely dependent upon (a) disregarding Abaddon's millennia-long refusal to submit to any/all of the Chaos gods, and (b) relies upon a further progression of the lore. It's like writing rules for a hypothetical version of Tycho if he had not succumbed to the Black Rage and had instead fallen to Chaos (just to make him even more psycho). It's fine as a personal speculation for your own hobbying efforts as well as for those that want to tinker with the setting in personal ways, but it doesn't seem like something that should ever hit the mainstream.

 

I was under the impression that Abaddon's current rules embody the blessings of all four of the Chaos gods. Are there any aspects of his current Warhammer 40,000 rules that don't adequately represent your opinion of him? Or perhaps you'd like to focus on Abaddon during the Horus Heresy, when he is much less powerful than in M41. Can you cite official lore, especially from reliable narrators or objective omniscient views (vice unreliable narrators), that backs up your estimation of what Abaddon's powers/mark should be?

 

In the Old Lore Abaddon went on a rampage to try and reach Horus during the duel. Implying Chaos buffed him to the point he was murdering Custodes and Imperial Fists Terminators left and right

 

Abaddon is going to fight Loken to the death in the Finale. Since Loken is now a Proto-Grey Knight thanks to his Psyker Powers awakening plus he has a Force Sword Abaddon needs new powers of his own to beat and kill Loken

 

Loken is going to die so he can slow down Abaddon so he can't kill the dying Emperor and heavily wounded Dorn. Even with those injuries a normal Astarte like Abaddon can't injure or kill a Primarch or the Emperor so this is the first 'activation' of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant

 

Abaddon visited a Daemon World own by a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. Due to the warped nature of time he was old and helpless by the time he was talking to the DP. Abby offered a game with the winner getting a reward. He losses the first time but uses the screwy-nature of time to get a do over. Winning the second-time he acquires Foresight powers

 

Abaddon also acquires a Foresight gift from Tzeentch himself for one of his Black Crusades

 

Abaddon chose to submit to the Warp Ghosts demand. Rather than bargain like so many other Chaos Champions would have. At the end of the day all followers of Chaos only have so much leeway

 

Perty hates Chaos yet he becomes a Daemon Primarch. Honsou sees him.

 

His third form is what will happen if he gives in or losses too much of himself like Horus. His fourth form is him succeeding and becoming like Archaon. Damnation or Ascension.

[Ioldanach]

Quote

In the Old Lore Abaddon went on a rampage to try and reach Horus during the duel. Implying Chaos buffed him to the point he was murdering Custodes and Imperial Fists Terminators left and right

 

You might infer that Abaddon was murdering Custodes and Imperial Fists Terminators left and right, but that’s not implied. In fact, the older lore that I’ve found doesn’t mention Abaddon’s performance against Custodes at all, only mentioning that he fought through Imperial Fists Terminators. While we can surmise that he was victorious and survived his battles against those foes, there’s absolutely nothing to imply that it was a cakewalk for him.

 

Quote

Abaddon is going to fight Loken to the death in the Finale. Since Loken is now a Proto-Grey Knight thanks to his Psyker Powers awakening plus he has a Force Sword Abaddon needs new powers of his own to beat and kill Loken

 

I see several flaws in this passage. First, I was under the impression that Loken’s fate is unknown, meaning that he might not fight Abaddon during the Siege of Terra. Second, aside from poor writing (or wish-listing, as in this case), antagonists don’t just gain new abilities simply because their adversaries gain their own. Part of any conflict and suspense is overcoming more powerful adversaries. Given, Abaddon is one of the most powerful of the Legiones Astartes and was more potent than Loken prior to the Heresy; so using your argument, it might simply be said that Loken’s new abilities simply put him on par with Abaddon (making a theoretical battle to the two of them even more suspenseful, even though we would know that Abaddon would survive since he has a known destiny). Even then, the two could meet on the battlefield and neither might die.

 

Quote

Loken is going to die so he can slow down Abaddon so he can't kill the dying Emperor and heavily wounded Dorn. Even with those injuries a normal Astarte like Abaddon can't injure or kill a Primarch or the Emperor so this is the first 'activation' of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant

 

Blowing right past the “Loken is going to die” portion that has already been demonstrated to be false/wish-listing, what is your source for Dorn being “heavily wounded” [in the attack on the Vengeful Spirit]? None of the official sources that I’ve consulted mention Dorn being heavily injured, and especially not by Abaddon, who isn’t mentioned in any description of that event beyond battling his way through Imperial Fists Legion Terminators, finding the body of Horus, and taking the Claw. My primary source here is The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions which was the authoritative source prior to the Horus Heresy novels changing things. I’ve also checked various codices and campaign books, however, and haven’t found any that mention this “fact.” You’re basically claiming that Y happened (even though it conflicts with official lore) because X happened (even though X didn’t happen).

 

Quote

 

Abaddon visited a Daemon World own by a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. Due to the warped nature of time he was old and helpless by the time he was talking to the DP. Abby offered a game with the winner getting a reward. He losses the first time but uses the screwy-nature of time to get a do over. Winning the second-time he acquires Foresight powers

 

Abaddon also acquires a Foresight gift from Tzeentch himself for one of his Black Crusades

 

Abaddon chose to submit to the Warp Ghosts demand. Rather than bargain like so many other Chaos Champions would have. At the end of the day all followers of Chaos only have so much leeway

 

…

 

His third form is what will happen if he gives in or losses too much of himself like Horus. His fourth form is him succeeding and becoming like Archaon. Damnation or Ascension.

 

 

When did Abaddon visit the daemon world that was ruled by a daemon prince of Tzeentch? Was that before the Siege of Terra? Or did it take place after the death of Horus and the flight of the traitors into the Eye of Terror? Similarly, gaining powers of foresight is cool, but that doesn’t make him a full-blown psyker with other powers that you imply might be in his possession at the time of the Siege of Terra (especially since he didn’t get those foresight powers until after the Siege of Terra).

 

Yes, the followers of Chaos only have so much leeway, but the core of Abaddon’s lore since he was first introduced is that he continues to resist submitting fully. Becoming a daemon prince in the manner that you suggest completely defies that lore. It would deny Abaddon the freedom in real-space that he needs, and which drives him to continue to resist. You are basically suggesting a revision to the character that disregards the element that defines him.

 

Quote

Perty hates Chaos yet he becomes a Daemon Primarch. Honsou sees him.

 

This is mostly irrelevant to the discussion since a defining aspect of Chaos is that many who ultimately serve it hate, fear, and loathe it prior to submitting. Many do not join Chaos willingly, but some of those go on to become great champions of Chaos and daemon princes. To counter, Sanguinius hates Chaos and refuses to give in to its lure.

 

Going back to your original suggestion, you made one statement that is quite important and really makes the purpose of these suggested rules clear:

 

Quote

This model should be able to solo the enemy army in Tabletop and Lore. Gets unique Daemon rules

 

No model should be able to “solo the enemy army” except via plot armor.  Rules that might allow for such a model wouldn’t be fun or sporting. As it stands right now, Abaddon is superior to any loyalist Space Marine, which is probably appropriate. Whether or not he’s superior to Roboute Guilliman is up for debate. At the very least, Abaddon should approach the Primarch’s abilities, and potentially even rival him sufficiently to be a threat. At the very least, each should have relative strengths and weaknesses in comparison to each other. Making Abaddon outright superior to Roboute Guilliman, however, isn’t appropriate.

 

Again, though, I’m no expert on Abaddon. Please cite and quote the official lore that is driving your suggestions. So far you’ve only mentioned your personal interpretations of the lore, which many find questionable and which are in conflict with the official sources that I've consulted. Worse, you don’t seem to understand Abaddon’s nature and place in the setting. You have suggested rules that are completely at odds with what Abaddon is supposed to be, presumably for the purpose of making Chaos the inevitable all-conquering element of the setting that would then, by the nature of what you want it to do, completely ruin the setting and the game.

 

Abaddon is a great character (and a great miniature). The novels by A D-B have done a great job of fleshing him out (I’m eagerly awaiting the continuance of that series) and the rules have kept pace with making him the big bad of the setting. If there are weaknesses with the rules, they should be fixed. We need to do that in a manner that corresponds with the lore, though, and not just because we want Chaos to pwn everybody.

[Moonreaper666]

I fully believe that Vol 2 of The End and The Death would change the nature of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The Lore changes regarding this Special Mark will result in changes on the Tabletop 

 

First off, Abaddon will fight and kill Loken on the Vengeful Spirit. Ask yourself this, how could Abaddon beat him when he is a Psyker and has two special swords?

 

The moment Abaddon is about to lose the duel and probably die is when the Chaos Gods intervene, FORCEFULLY imparting the Mark of Chaos Ascendant on Abaddon against his will. Increased Strength, Toughness, Speed, Reflexes plus Psyker Powers beyond what Magnus possessed, he easily butchers the Lone Wolf

 

The Chaos Gods tell him that he is Everchosen...

 

Spoiler

Potential candidate for The Dark King, the 5th Major Chaos God

 

...and that Horus was a failure. Abaddon goes on a rampage, killing many Custodes and Imperial Fist Terminators on his way to Horus and the Emperor. Abaddon is so brutal that both Dorn and Valdor are heavily wounded slowing him down so the Emperor can escape, the Praetorian losing his hand in the defense

 

On the Tabletop, the Mark of Chaos Ascendant has unique gameplay mechanics tied to it:

 

-Performing certain actions in a match empowers Abaddon with different boons from the Chaos Gods. The Warmaster can choose one of many blessings from each of the Four. After getting the blessing of all the Chaos Gods (you can get Khorne's immunity to magic and stack it with Tzeentch's Super Teleportation plus Nurgle's Poison Damage, etc.), the MoCA transforms into the Mark of

Spoiler

the Dark King

, further empowering Abaddon and his boons

 

-The Mark starts out deactivated but Abaddon can activate it anytime. (even in the middle of his or someone's elses attacks, movements and even other players's turn) But it only last for a limited time and can only be used once per match. The Mark will automatically activate and last forever when fully blessed by the Four.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that the post above was created as a new topic in the Heretic Astartes forum, but it is a continuation of the OP's topic of December 2022, so it was moved and merged with the existing topic.

[Moonreaper666]

On 12/6/2022 at 10:11 AM, Ioldanach said:

 

You might infer that Abaddon was murdering Custodes and Imperial Fists Terminators left and right, but that’s not implied. In fact, the older lore that I’ve found doesn’t mention Abaddon’s performance against Custodes at all, only mentioning that he fought through Imperial Fists Terminators. While we can surmise that he was victorious and survived his battles against those foes, there’s absolutely nothing to imply that it was a cakewalk for him.

 

 

I see several flaws in this passage. First, I was under the impression that Loken’s fate is unknown, meaning that he might not fight Abaddon during the Siege of Terra. Second, aside from poor writing (or wish-listing, as in this case), antagonists don’t just gain new abilities simply because their adversaries gain their own. Part of any conflict and suspense is overcoming more powerful adversaries. Given, Abaddon is one of the most powerful of the Legiones Astartes and was more potent than Loken prior to the Heresy; so using your argument, it might simply be said that Loken’s new abilities simply put him on par with Abaddon (making a theoretical battle to the two of them even more suspenseful, even though we would know that Abaddon would survive since he has a known destiny). Even then, the two could meet on the battlefield and neither might die.

 

 

Blowing right past the “Loken is going to die” portion that has already been demonstrated to be false/wish-listing, what is your source for Dorn being “heavily wounded” [in the attack on the Vengeful Spirit]? None of the official sources that I’ve consulted mention Dorn being heavily injured, and especially not by Abaddon, who isn’t mentioned in any description of that event beyond battling his way through Imperial Fists Legion Terminators, finding the body of Horus, and taking the Claw. My primary source here is The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions which was the authoritative source prior to the Horus Heresy novels changing things. I’ve also checked various codices and campaign books, however, and haven’t found any that mention this “fact.” You’re basically claiming that Y happened (even though it conflicts with official lore) because X happened (even though X didn’t happen).

 

 

When did Abaddon visit the daemon world that was ruled by a daemon prince of Tzeentch? Was that before the Siege of Terra? Or did it take place after the death of Horus and the flight of the traitors into the Eye of Terror? Similarly, gaining powers of foresight is cool, but that doesn’t make him a full-blown psyker with other powers that you imply might be in his possession at the time of the Siege of Terra (especially since he didn’t get those foresight powers until after the Siege of Terra).

 

Yes, the followers of Chaos only have so much leeway, but the core of Abaddon’s lore since he was first introduced is that he continues to resist submitting fully. Becoming a daemon prince in the manner that you suggest completely defies that lore. It would deny Abaddon the freedom in real-space that he needs, and which drives him to continue to resist. You are basically suggesting a revision to the character that disregards the element that defines him.

 

 

This is mostly irrelevant to the discussion since a defining aspect of Chaos is that many who ultimately serve it hate, fear, and loathe it prior to submitting. Many do not join Chaos willingly, but some of those go on to become great champions of Chaos and daemon princes. To counter, Sanguinius hates Chaos and refuses to give in to its lure.

 

Going back to your original suggestion, you made one statement that is quite important and really makes the purpose of these suggested rules clear:

 

 

No model should be able to “solo the enemy army” except via plot armor.  Rules that might allow for such a model wouldn’t be fun or sporting. As it stands right now, Abaddon is superior to any loyalist Space Marine, which is probably appropriate. Whether or not he’s superior to Roboute Guilliman is up for debate. At the very least, Abaddon should approach the Primarch’s abilities, and potentially even rival him sufficiently to be a threat. At the very least, each should have relative strengths and weaknesses in comparison to each other. Making Abaddon outright superior to Roboute Guilliman, however, isn’t appropriate.

 

Again, though, I’m no expert on Abaddon. Please cite and quote the official lore that is driving your suggestions. So far you’ve only mentioned your personal interpretations of the lore, which many find questionable and which are in conflict with the official sources that I've consulted. Worse, you don’t seem to understand Abaddon’s nature and place in the setting. You have suggested rules that are completely at odds with what Abaddon is supposed to be, presumably for the purpose of making Chaos the inevitable all-conquering element of the setting that would then, by the nature of what you want it to do, completely ruin the setting and the game.

 

Abaddon is a great character (and a great miniature). The novels by A D-B have done a great job of fleshing him out (I’m eagerly awaiting the continuance of that series) and the rules have kept pace with making him the big bad of the setting. If there are weaknesses with the rules, they should be fixed. We need to do that in a manner that corresponds with the lore, though, and not just because we want Chaos to pwn everybody.

 

Abaddon can't beat Loken on his own. Both of them are on the VS, both of them are basically mini-Primarchs, Loken has Sanginius's heart while Abaddon has Horus's rage.

 

Loken will have the sacrifice story that Garro should had have in his Final Novella. Fighting a much superior opponent not to win but to slow him down to save someone else, matyrdom

 

Chaos can force their gifts on people that don't want them. The forcing of the Ascendant Mark onto Abaddon is one of the reasons he was a broken man after the Siege

 

Abaddon and Perturabo like each other due to their communality. And that communality explains why both Fall to Chaos in similar ways yet look completely different to other Fallen Champions

 

Abaddon does technically submit to Chaos in the second BL book. By giving anything the Warp Ghosts wanted he symbolically submits to Chaos. Lorgar would be proud of him. Bile would comment on how similar they are in the end.