GW, BL and the End of Things

[DukeLeto69]

12 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

They have already done so for decades. This is the end of days. This has been consistently reinforced for quite literally, decades.

Ah but there is now a glimmer of light. The Primarchs are returning. Even the God Emperor is stirring. At the turning of the tide they might just be able to rise up and haul victory from the slavering jaws of their countless enemies! 

 

At least that is what the accountants will want as any excuse to sell more kits!

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Ah but there is now a glimmer of light. The Primarchs are returning. Even the God Emperor is stirring. At the turning of the tide they might just be able to rise up and haul victory from the slavering jaws of their countless enemies! 

 

At least that is what the accountants will want as any excuse to sell more kits!

 

Gross.

 

I'll just let Abnett say it for me in my signature.  ;)

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Gross.

 

I'll just let Abnett say it for me in my signature.  ;)

I think one of the few things I disagree with you is on the manner of nihilism vs hope.

 

I like the grim dark, but not the nihilism. To avoid the nihilism there has to be a glimmer of light and hope. It doesn’t have to be achieved but it has to be there. 
 

I personally don’t see a problem with the advancement, with the victories here and there, because it doesn’t change that there is still just a small glimmer. 

[Scribe]

Micro level? Personal hopes? Sure!

 

Macro, setting level? It's just not 40K, and thankfully that has remained true for decades.

 

Not to say it cannot change. Studios ruin IPs all the time. ;)

[Arkangilos]

23 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Micro level? Personal hopes? Sure!

 

Macro, setting level? It's just not 40K, and thankfully that has remained true for decades.

 

Why do you mean? There has always been a chance that the emperor would come back, that Guilliman would come back, that such and such would happen.  
 

That is a legitimate, macro level hope. 
That stuff happening doesn’t really change much, but it still does give that macro level small amount of hope of surviving.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Arkangilos said:

Why do you mean? There has always been a chance that the emperor would come back, that Guilliman would come back, that such and such would happen.  
 

That is a legitimate, macro level hope. 
That stuff happening doesn’t really change much, but it still does give that macro level small amount of hope of surviving.

 

That it could happen, won't change anything.

 

I'm just going to have to devote a longer post to this.

[Roomsky]

50 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Why do you mean? There has always been a chance that the emperor would come back, that Guilliman would come back, that such and such would happen.  
 

That is a legitimate, macro level hope. 
That stuff happening doesn’t really change much, but it still does give that macro level small amount of hope of surviving.

 

Can't really agree with that one. Guilliman wasn't in stasis because he might come back - he was in stasis to show the Imperium would rather use his near-dead body as a shrine than let the man lie. Jaghatai, Russ, Corax, etc didn't disappear to set up a possible return. They disappeared to give their chapters a legend to cling to. It was ambiguous for ages whether the Emperor was actually ALIVE at all, his body being used as a psychic lighthouse doesn't imply he'd actually go anywhere.

 

Such hopes have really only arisen with Guilliman's actual return. They used to be, at best, the empty hopes of deluded characters in-universe. 

[Scribe]

So lets look at this logically, from an in universe, and also 'non-corporate' view on the setting. Lets pretend we actually want the setting to persist as it has for quite factually a consistent tone for 20 years since at the least the dawn of 3rd edition in the late 90's.

 

Humanity was able to go out and populate the stars. This was not a centralized government like the Imperium, and was assisted by AI, the Men of Gold, and Men of Stone.

The Necron's were sleeping.

The Nids had not arrived.

Chaos was churning in the Warp, but had not yet exploded.

The Eldar allowed this to happen because of the loss of life in the War in Heaven (Necron vs Eldar/Ork/Old Ones).

Orks were just doing their thing.

Warp Storms clouded the galaxy.

Tau didnt exist. Still dont in any meaningful way but whatever.

 

So then what happens?

 

The Eldar birth Slaanesh.

This blows out the Warp Storms.

This shatters the Eldar as a galactic power.

 

Emperor takes shoots his shot. They begin a 200 year crusade and actually unify Humanity under the Imperium. Yay team human!

 

The Emperor in his tragic (classical tragedy) hubris, causes the Heresy. Chaos takes THEIR shot. The Imperium tears itself apart.

 

Fast forward...

 

Where are we now?

 

Necrons are waking up. Former rulers of the galaxy.

Nids are arriving. The 10th edition trailer sets the tone. Rob is back? Who cares. He knows its all a lie. He knows there is no victory here.

Chaos is more than just a churring force in the Warp, eating the souls of earths Shaman. Chaos now has half the galaxy in flames, free reign over half of the Imperium's worlds.

Eldar are still broken, as is their role as the "Fallen Power" trope. That said, there is still the whole messed up "God of the Dead" business.

Tau, an annoyance, but just one more straw upon the back of the Imperium.

Orks, still a menace.

Votaan, going about their business, but no friends of the Imperium or Mechanicum.

Chaos Cults, and Genestealer cults thrive.

 

And the vaunted Imperium? Riven with internal disfunction. Unable to communicate. Unable to coordinate. Attacked from without, within, and from beyond. Their own defenders know that its a burning twisted reflection of the Emperor's dream. The Mechanicus should be ripping itself apart with the walking tech heresy that is Cawl.

 

Rob is back? So? One individual. ONE. Is going to save the Imperium and turn the tide? Its a farce of an idea.

Lion is back? Again. Look at the scenario here.

 

Emperor wakes up. Yes, it could happen, if someone kills him and he's reborn, or he ascends as a God fully (wouldnt he then be stuck in the Warp? Yes.) sure fine.

 

It still shouldnt matter, as who is to say that the shattered consciousness of the Emperor is even a 'good thing' to have around anymore?

 

The scenario that lead to the unification of the galaxy under the Imperium during the Great Crusade, is not the scenario of today. The scenario of today, is multiple existential threats (Nid/Necron) and enough problems (Eldar/Ork/Tau/Votaan) on top of internal division which has damaged the Imperium and put it at risk more than once in its history.

 

Again. Take corporate greed out of the picture.

 

There is no scenario in which GW can paint this as a situation that the Imperium can recover from, outside of the most childish Imperial fan service.

[Arkangilos]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

So lets look at this logically, from an in universe, and also 'non-corporate' view on the setting. Lets pretend we actually want the setting to persist as it has for quite factually a consistent tone for 20 years since at the least the dawn of 3rd edition in the late 90's.

 

Humanity was able to go out and populate the stars. This was not a centralized government like the Imperium, and was assisted by AI, the Men of Gold, and Men of Stone.

The Necron's were sleeping.

The Nids had not arrived.

Chaos was churning in the Warp, but had not yet exploded.

The Eldar allowed this to happen because of the loss of life in the War in Heaven (Necron vs Eldar/Ork/Old Ones).

Orks were just doing their thing.

Warp Storms clouded the galaxy.

Tau didnt exist. Still dont in any meaningful way but whatever.

 

So then what happens?

 

The Eldar birth Slaanesh.

This blows out the Warp Storms.

This shatters the Eldar as a galactic power.

 

Emperor takes shoots his shot. They begin a 200 year crusade and actually unify Humanity under the Imperium. Yay team human!

 

The Emperor in his tragic (classical tragedy) hubris, causes the Heresy. Chaos takes THEIR shot. The Imperium tears itself apart.

 

Fast forward...

 

Where are we now?

 

Necrons are waking up. Former rulers of the galaxy.

Nids are arriving. The 10th edition trailer sets the tone. Rob is back? Who cares. He knows its all a lie. He knows there is no victory here.

Chaos is more than just a churring force in the Warp, eating the souls of earths Shaman. Chaos now has half the galaxy in flames, free reign over half of the Imperium's worlds.

Eldar are still broken, as is their role as the "Fallen Power" trope. That said, there is still the whole messed up "God of the Dead" business.

Tau, an annoyance, but just one more straw upon the back of the Imperium.

Orks, still a menace.

Votaan, going about their business, but no friends of the Imperium or Mechanicum.

Chaos Cults, and Genestealer cults thrive.

 

And the vaunted Imperium? Riven with internal disfunction. Unable to communicate. Unable to coordinate. Attacked from without, within, and from beyond. Their own defenders know that its a burning twisted reflection of the Emperor's dream. The Mechanicus should be ripping itself apart with the walking tech heresy that is Cawl.

 

Rob is back? So? One individual. ONE. Is going to save the Imperium and turn the tide? Its a farce of an idea.

Lion is back? Again. Look at the scenario here.

 

Emperor wakes up. Yes, it could happen, if someone kills him and he's reborn, or he ascends as a God fully (wouldnt he then be stuck in the Warp? Yes.) sure fine.

 

It still shouldnt matter, as who is to say that the shattered consciousness of the Emperor is even a 'good thing' to have around anymore?

 

The scenario that lead to the unification of the galaxy under the Imperium during the Great Crusade, is not the scenario of today. The scenario of today, is multiple existential threats (Nid/Necron) and enough problems (Eldar/Ork/Tau/Votaan) on top of internal division which has damaged the Imperium and put it at risk more than once in its history.

 

Again. Take corporate greed out of the picture.

 

There is no scenario in which GW can paint this as a situation that the Imperium can recover from, outside of the most childish Imperial fan service.

It isn’t hope of imperial revival that I’m talking about. It’s hope of survival. If there is no hope of survival then it it becomes pointless.

 

Like obviously the Imperium will never recover. Just like the Roman Empire never recovered, the people survived. They became something very different, but they survived. 
 

In my opinion when you get to the “no hope for anyone, it’s already concluded everyone dies”, you lose the story that the situation is grim, and there is no end to the struggle. The dark struggle being eternal is only possible if survival is possible, because survival is the struggle that there is no hope to win against. 

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

It isn’t hope of imperial revival that I’m talking about. It’s hope of survival. If there is no hope of survival then it it becomes pointless.

 

Its not pointless.

 

These guys are dead. Its the most inspirational art I've seen out of 40K in a long time. Its quintessentially 40K, quintessentially British, to look at defeat, and flip it off and fight on anyway.

 

That is the point. They are not fighting because they are going to win. They are fighting because they believe it is right to do so!

 

[Arkangilos]

10 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Its not pointless.

 

These guys are dead. Its the most inspirational art I've seen out of 40K in a long time. Its quintessentially 40K, quintessentially British, to look at defeat, and flip it off and fight on anyway.

 

That is the point. They are not fighting because they are going to win. They are fighting because they believe it is right to do so!

 

That’s on a micro scale, and they died for survival of humanity that they believe is possible. 
 

This actually ties into why I don’t like the threat that the Tyranids are and why I prefer Chaos as the main threat.

 

Tyranids just make everything pointless and dumb because the struggle is gone.

 

The Chaos conflict is eternal, except that the tyranids will even kill that and now you lose everything. 
 

It’s not grim dark. It’s just nihilism.

 

The grim dark is the fact that the survival is what causes the suffering.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Arkangilos

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, Roomsky said:

 

Can't really agree with that one. Guilliman wasn't in stasis because he might come back - he was in stasis to show the Imperium would rather use his near-dead body as a shrine than let the man lie. Jaghatai, Russ, Corax, etc didn't disappear to set up a possible return. They disappeared to give their chapters a legend to cling to. It was ambiguous for ages whether the Emperor was actually ALIVE at all, his body being used as a psychic lighthouse doesn't imply he'd actually go anywhere.

 

Such hopes have really only arisen with Guilliman's actual return. They used to be, at best, the empty hopes of deluded characters in-universe. 

 

While I agree that those things are one aspect of it, the carrot of those characters returning, healing or waking up has been dangling for the past 20 years. It's always been hinted at that Guilliman was slowly healing, for instance - and while that has always been handled with a healthy dose of skepticism in the fluff, it was an inherent belief by the relevant factions that wasn't brushed aside as simple fanaticism. It's been a possibility deliberately left open within the sandbox. They were deliberately established narrative hooks as much as illustrations of the downfall of humanity.

 

Similarly, the Lion waking up has been a thing to theorize about. We've known he was safe and asleep somewhere, watched by the Watchers, for decades. Or Russ's return at the Wolftime - which I still think was a really interesting thing to do with the Space Wolves in Dawn of Fire, because it's not the Wolftime yet, or if it is, the prophecy is false and they're struggling hopelessly.

 

What I'd say is that Guilliman's return has made further returns more plausible, but then I'd argue that Guilliman's return was subject to Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade succeeding in tearing the galaxy in half, prompting desperate measures, rather than it being an automatic development - without that change, he might have remained in stasis for all eternity.

 

Which is to say: I still see this as part of the desperate struggle against extinction, which the Indomitus Crusade is the epitomy of. But I don't think the despair has left, or that the extinction clock was reset. The state of the galaxy has shifted, but the newfound initiative of the Imperium has resulted in other problems as well. And I think it's fine to finally catch one carrot every five-ish years as editions move on, considering how many more remain dangling. And everyone's butts are still on fire while chasing those. The situation is still overall unchanged: If the Imperium falters, stops running or stumbles, the delicate balance will shatter and the domino effect will destroy it.

 

And that Guilliman's return and crusade also lead to significant oversights and mistakes is something Dawn of Fire has tried to address, too, not least of all via The Iron Kingdom, where the macro demands of the crusade lead to situations that cause misery on the galactic micro-level, weakening the united front. Because even Roboute Guilliman can't be everywhere at once, has to delegate, and is being disappointed by subordinates when it comes to the execution of his grand strategies. Personally, I find it compelling to have a Primarch trying to hold things together while pieces keep breaking off where his hands are not present. Somebody who generally knows how things could be solved, but lacks the reach and resources to actually do it, because the Imperium is still the Imperium and mankind is still mankind.

Edited April 20, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Moonreaper666]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:35 PM, chevalierdulys said:

Probably going a bit off topic - but its connected with this novel at the same time...The imperium is probably in it's weakest spot since M32 (war of the beast) probably even worse than that. Probably only comparable with the  heresy. We are talking about a divided imperium. The chaos gods are doing some strange stuff and even that fleet change sides (I think I am n ot mistaken) BUT in all honestly. What can two primarch do against all of them? IT's not just chaos, it's everyone else are against you. You lose half the imperium in one go - so half the manpower, half the fighting force etc (I don't know it's half, just assuming). Okay but they have two primarchs. Are they really a game changer? Are they as powerful as chaos gods that destroys armadas/turn an entire fleet to chaos. I think the imperium really needs something if GW wants the imperium to survive. They cannot start another 13th black crusade situation for decades  with really no plot development. Finally they advance but the imperium if it was screw now is screw times 4 or 5. What can save the Imperium? More Primarchs? The Emperor? Deus Ex Machina?

 

War of the Beast Orks? That conflict only killed a portion of the numbers that the Heresy caused LET ALONE the Scouring (which killed much more than the Heresy itself!)

 

The Beast Orks let Abaddon wreck the Imperium TWICE and make Dorn 'disappear' before they attack!

 

Shalaxi curbstomped the Ynnari and nearly 'collected' Guilliman's head using only a fraction of his powers

 

Guilliman used up his ONLY one revive. Kor Phaeron can curbstomp him a second time (then someone else kills him)

 

The Chaos Gods can pull a civilization-destroyer up their ass anytime to wipe out all their enemies in one go

 

Changeling, Skulltaker, Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Magnus can each kill many Loyalist characters (with the permission of the Chaos Gods)

[DukeLeto69]

Some excellent posts and thinking in this thread fraters.

 

I may get my terminology wrong here as I am long in the tooth and was never really down with the kids anyway!

 

I cannot ever imagine a scenario (except a Disney buy out of GW) of W40k turning noblebright. It will always be grimdark because that is the aesthetic. It will always be “just before midnight” but (arguably) until a few years ago it was “2 minutes to midnight” and then we got some progression and the clock ticked forward to “1 minute to midnight”. If the progressions continue then the seconds are ticking down (so it is now “59 seconds to midnight”). 

 

In amongst the hopelessness there are glimmers of hope that inspire humanity to fight on, just in case. For some it is a glorious last stand, for others they still cling to the faint belief in victory. For some it is now indeed hopeless.

 

But never forget WE (in the real world consuming the lore and playing the game) KNOW infinitely more about the state of the universe then ANYONE in the setting. NOBODY knows what we know.

 

In some ways I equate the setting with the dying days of the Third Reich. Surrounded on all sides, their enemies multiplying and closing in. Yet still they fought on. The Battle of the Bulge seems somewhat analogous to the Indomitus Crusade. A last offensive an attempt to turn the tide that is in reality futile as the task is too big.

 

One of the “missed tricks” IMO with this setting/IP is that GW haven’t leaned more heavily into Faction POV lore. Personally I wish the codexes were only written from the propaganda filled POV of the faction they represent. I think it would be fun to get a singular viewpoint that often contradicts another faction’s viewpoint on events. With that approach we could see IoM propaganda lauding the return of Primarchs, Chaos laughing at the inconsequential but slightly irritating fact they have returned, and Tyrannids being oblivious! For example!

[EverythingIsGreat]

Good day,

 

Well this is a wargame, so it requires war(s). Inconclusive ones, preferably, that have plenty of campaigns with significant implications that may just decide a final victory, but never do. Otherwise, the entire wargame will have an endgame that can be reached after so many plays. That's not optimal, it is actually dull. However within these constraints, settings can shift. The Unification Wars for instance. They never ended, they just expanded/morphed into the Great Crusade Wars (a larger unification), which eventually lead to the Horus Heresy Wars. And the Heresy never ended, its latest iteration/descendant being the 13th Black Crusade, another setting shift that renews the game and adds plenty of exciting campaigns. And this is just considering one faction's gaming POV, albeit the most important one (humanity). From this perspective, the supporting literature is incidental. That's not to say it cannot be exciting, and it frequently is, quite an achievement for a universe that has such a narrow horizon.

 

5 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

One of the “missed tricks” IMO with this setting/IP is that GW haven’t leaned more heavily into Faction POV lore. Personally I wish the codexes were only written from the propaganda filled POV of the faction they represent. I think it would be fun to get a singular viewpoint that often contradicts another faction’s viewpoint on events

 

Imo, it would be close to impossible to write game rules if that was the case. And an omniscient voice would still be required somewhere, to reconcile the opposing POVs into in-universe objectivism, required by both campaign play and background exposition.

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Good day,

 

Well this is a wargame, so it requires war(s). Inconclusive ones, preferably, that have plenty of campaigns with significant implications that may just decide a final victory, but never do. Otherwise, the entire wargame will have an endgame that can be reached after so many plays. That's not optimal, it is actually dull. However within these constraints, settings can shift. The Unification Wars for instance. They never ended, they just expanded/morphed into the Great Crusade Wars (a larger unification), which eventually lead to the Horus Heresy Wars. And the Heresy never ended, its latest iteration/descendant being the 13th Black Crusade, another setting shift that renews the game and adds plenty of exciting campaigns. And this is just considering one faction's gaming POV, albeit the most important one (humanity). From this perspective, the supporting literature is incidental. That's not to say it cannot be exciting, and it frequently is, quite an achievement for a universe that has such a narrow horizon.

 

 

Imo, it would be close to impossible to write game rules if that was the case. And an omniscient voice would still be required somewhere, to reconcile the opposing POVs into in-universe objectivism, required by both campaign play and background exposition.

Oh yes I get that but for me that is the Core Rulebook. I specifically and deliberately referenced the Codexes for faction POV.

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

In some ways I equate the setting with the dying days of the Third Reich. Surrounded on all sides, their enemies multiplying and closing in. Yet still they fought on. The Battle of the Bulge seems somewhat analogous to the Indomitus Crusade. A last offensive an attempt to turn the tide that is in reality futile as the task is too big.

 

I think this is a very good take on it.

[Arkangilos]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

I think this is a very good take on it.

Yeah, but it also isn't contrary to what I was saying. Even after the third reich was defeated, the Germanic people still existed. 

 

For me it isn't about the Imperium winning, it's just that the Tyranids take survival out, which takes the darkness out. Like, "big deal, they are going to die. Everyone dies."

If it were Chaos winning, humans still survive, just enslaved to the darkness. They gain a little hope, they fight back. They might even have a GC moment. But then, all their hopes and dreams are dashed. If the Imperium wins, they are enslaved to the Imperium. Some might gain a little hope, fight back, reach Terra, but then all their hopes are dashed. 

 

If the Tau win, they are enslaved to the Greater Good. At some point there will be a spark of hope, a rebellion, they might even almost win. But then their hopes will be dashed. 

 

Like, every faction has it's excesses that keep them from ever moving beyond the grimdark, from ever moving into a real golden age. All of them have hopes that are always dashed. Except the tyranids. If they win there isn't suffering anymore. There isn't conflict anymore. There isn't even the warp entities anymore. It's just empty, barren, nothingness. To me that isn't dark. It's the "sweet release" of the "end".  

 

 

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

3 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Oh yes I get that but for me that is the Core Rulebook. I specifically and deliberately referenced the Codexes for faction POV.

 

Fair enough. Bits and pieces of faction POV do exist in faction codices, but I suppose you would see much more extensive use. Not inconceivable, though it probably would be better on a separate section, as "Faction Lore" perhaps. In-universe, practically all factions have savants or savant-types who could be the "lore-keepers" of their faction.

The timing is good. Perhaps we are now in a brand new iteration of the main setting (crudely, the Imperium Sanctus/Imperium Nihilus setting) that may drag on for another 15-20 years and may produce plenty of material, and specifically (since this is the forum for it) dozens upon dozens of BL novels. Who thought in 2007 that BL's Horus Heresy Series would go beyond 10 novels? Likely, very few people.

Edited April 21, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[Scribe]

13 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Yeah, but it also isn't contrary to what I was saying. Even after the third reich was defeated, the Germanic people still existed. 

 

For me it isn't about the Imperium winning, it's just that the Tyranids take survival out, which takes the darkness out. Like, "big deal, they are going to die. Everyone dies."

If it were Chaos winning, humans still survive, just enslaved to the darkness. They gain a little hope, they fight back. They might even have a GC moment. But then, all their hopes and dreams are dashed. If the Imperium wins, they are enslaved to the Imperium. Some might gain a little hope, fight back, reach Terra, but then all their hopes are dashed. 

 

If the Tau win, they are enslaved to the Greater Good. At some point there will be a spark of hope, a rebellion, they might even almost win. But then their hopes will be dashed. 

 

Like, every faction has it's excesses that keep them from ever moving beyond the grimdark, from ever moving into a real golden age. All of them have hopes that are always dashed. Except the tyranids. If they win there isn't suffering anymore. There isn't conflict anymore. There isn't even the warp entities anymore. It's just empty, barren, nothingness. To me that isn't dark. It's the "sweet release" of the "end".  

 

 

 

 

Thats fair, nids do seem to be an exception to the rules everyone else has at this stage.

[Moonreaper666]

There should be more Lore tidbits and maybe Tabletop rules for the Imperium conscripting underage kids into the Guard and Militia by the Hundreds of Trillions (prior to the Great Rift) to sacrifice them to slow down the Imperium's enemies....

 

....then the Great Rift happens and there aren't enough kids to conscript anymore

[cheywood]

1 hour ago, Moonreaper666 said:

There should be more Lore tidbits and maybe Tabletop rules for the Imperium conscripting underage kids into the Guard and Militia by the Hundreds of Trillions (prior to the Great Rift) to sacrifice them to slow down the Imperium's enemies....

 

....then the Great Rift happens and there aren't enough kids to conscript anymore

Moonreaper, you make a lot of intentionally and needlessly edgy comments but ‘the setting would be better if they talked more about the mass genocide of children’ is in pretty incredibly poor taste.

[Arguleon Veq]

I have started looking into the existing lord/fluff concerning the Leagues of Votann from the following perspective 

* could this be part of a new playing field in a post Rift world for GW/Black Library?

* would a new playing field result in more product sold and/or new player attracted and old players retained or invigorated by said chance?

 

Orks are popular because of both the RPG background familiarity and the British dialect culture hook - mashed together, has resonated among fans for decades

 

On the other hand (at least for me) I just can’t get into the Tau, I mean I understand the Greater Good idea, and the attractiveness of having a non Imperium /Chaos faction…and yet, it just doesn’t resonate for me

 

The Dwarven ideal has been around for centuries and in more recent times the RPG dwarf is a much beloved, revered archetype 

 

As the aeldari are elves… IN SPAACCEE

As the Orks are football hooligans

Space Dwarves could be both a setting elevator and a potentially lucrative revenue stream. Some of the lore of the Votann speak of the peculiar nature of their part of the galaxy, very terra incognito (so to speak)

 

at least for me, who is all about the setting, lore and stories, I find that fascinating 

 

 

 

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, cheywood said:

Moonreaper, you make a lot of intentionally and needlessly edgy comments but ‘the setting would be better if they talked more about the mass genocide of children’ is in pretty incredibly poor taste.

 

Besides, we already have child soldiers, they are called Astartes.

[EverythingIsGreat]

10 hours ago, Arguleon Veq said:

I have started looking into the existing lord/fluff concerning the Leagues of Votann from the following perspective 

* could this be part of a new playing field in a post Rift world for GW/Black Library?

* would a new playing field result in more product sold and/or new player attracted and old players retained or invigorated by said chance?

 

Orks are popular because of both the RPG background familiarity and the British dialect culture hook - mashed together, has resonated among fans for decades

 

On the other hand (at least for me) I just can’t get into the Tau, I mean I understand the Greater Good idea, and the attractiveness of having a non Imperium /Chaos faction…and yet, it just doesn’t resonate for me

 

The Dwarven ideal has been around for centuries and in more recent times the RPG dwarf is a much beloved, revered archetype 

 

As the aeldari are elves… IN SPAACCEE

As the Orks are football hooligans

Space Dwarves could be both a setting elevator and a potentially lucrative revenue stream. Some of the lore of the Votann speak of the peculiar nature of their part of the galaxy, very terra incognito (so to speak)

 

at least for me, who is all about the setting, lore and stories, I find that fascinating 

 

 

 

 

I am sure there are reasons for the resurrection of the Squats in current lore. Mind you, there are quite a few differences between 1st edition Squats and 9th edition Votann, which is to be expected as the setting evolves.

The evolution may be opportunistic on the part of GW. For example, in-universe, the current state of affairs was caused by Necrons. They warded real space against Chaos via Blackstone, and it took a supposed martial genius like Abaddon to figure out that he had first to remove Blackstone in sufficient quantity in order to launch a proper campaign against the Imperium.

I have no way of knowing, but in all probability that was not what GW had in mind when they first introduced the Necrons.

For me, Tyranids are most intriguing. They are supposedly exo-galactic yet they react to stuff we normally think of as galactic, like the Astronomican and the Warp (the lore up to now sets the actionable universe of WH40K as being confined to the galaxy). Why do Tyranids relate/can act upon that stuff? Maybe it will be clearer in the 23rd ed. Rulebook.