The Philosophy of Chaos (NOT AN IRL POLITICAL DEBATE THREAD)

[Evil Eye]

Well, I had the mother of all shower thoughts.

 

We all know the Chaos Gods represent extremes of behaviour and culture, and the demeanours of the gods themselves and their servants reflects this. However, I came to a sudden, insane yet incredibly logical epiphany; the Dark Gods are not just in thematic opposition to each other, but fundamental ideological opposition as well- and what's more, the four powers are directly attuned to the four "points" of the compass of social/political/ideological/philosophical alignment we all find ourselves somewhere on.

 

Now, I must state IMMEDIATELY that this is NOT a thread for political arguments and no comparisons between imaginary gods and real people will take place. This is a thread for reflecting on what is IMO a genius bit of writing somewhat overshadowed by more superficial themes. However, to understand it a little, we must discuss one historical event, one that actually have birth to the idea of "left" and "right" wing- the French Revolution.

 

Without going into too much grisly detail about dramatis personae or aftermath, the French Revolution was at its core centered around the apparent decline of French society, with a few elite living in luxury and the masses in abject poverty. Exact details are unimportant; what IS important to this discussion is the people who wanted to fix this and how they proposed to do so.

 

The two wings of French parliament were divided into the physical left and right, and in these wings of the building dwelt two opposite extremes. The left, on the whole, advocated for drastic action to fix France's problems, whilst the right were in favour of keeping things on an even keel and fixing things slowly. Near the centre of this spectrum, reasonable, civil debate was possible. A moderate Leftist would state that things were pretty bad, and whilst care should be taken, something had to be done. A moderate Rightist would agree things were bad but caution that going too quickly and rashly could destabilize the country and make things worse for everyone. In other words, the centre of the debate basically wanted the same thing but had different views on how to approach it. At the extreme of each end however were the... less sane ones. The far Right were for various reasons (be it fear of losing what they perceived as rightfully theirs or contempt for their opponents, who they viewed as frothing madmen) opposed to anything changing and wanted the status quo. The far Left were no better, and wanted things changed at ANY cost, even if it meant people dying (especially if it meant their rivals on the Right dying, who they saw as corrupt and selfish; the further Left they went, the less generous they were on who deserved to live). At the very extreme of each wing you would have people so convicted that even the more moderate people in the same wing as them would view them as lunatics and would rather not be associated with them (feelings were mutual as these people viewed moderates as wishy-washy fence-sitters and cowards).

 

In the end the Left drifted towards their extreme faster, took action and the rest is quite literally history. Bloody, nasty, violent, awful history, but that's outside this discussion. But anyway, the point is that at their core, "Left wing" and "Right wing" are derived from this period and are defined by these mindsets. Left wing thought is in favour of things changing, and Right wing thought is in favour of things staying the same.

 

...Which sounds oddly familiar to us 40K nerds. Because they directly correspond with two of the Chaos Gods- Tzeentch and Nurgle.

 

Tzeentch is the embodiment of extreme Leftism. He is a god of endless change, of flux, evolution, mutation and infinite instability. He represents the drive to improve and evolve taken to its logical, dangerous extreme. An individual who desires things to get better, to achieve progress, is vulnerable to the whispers of Tzeentch. All the while he maintains his purpose- of improving things for the good of humanity such that they may follow the path set forward for them by Him on Terra- he remains righteous. But the desire to improve is easily stoked into the fires of ambition and a restless desire for change for its own sake. An inability to accept that something is outside of one's control, or that something is good enough. This eventually gives way to a need to overthrow the current order, to re-arrange it for one's own satisfaction, to slake a thirst for "progress" that can never be sated. In this way is a soul ensnared by Tzeentch. The revolutionary, the manipulator, the aspirant- these are all people who can be lost to the Changer of Ways.

 

And on the other end, Nurgle is an incarnation of extreme Rightism. A deity of stagnation, of stasis, of unending sameness and an endless repeating cycle. We are born, we live, we die and are replaced in the tripartite wheel of eternity. He represents the need for stability, for a solid routine and foundation to cling to, be it physical or mental. One who wishes to keep things orderly, to maintain the status quo and make sure thing stay as they should be is possibly open to the temptations of Nurgle. Some stability, some confidence that things are the way they should be, is good; The Emperor is on Terra, all is right with the Imperium. Stray too far from order, and you end up with anarchy and madness, as Tzeentch demonstrates. But refuse to adapt for the betterment of your fellow man, to cling to dogma not out of belief in what it preaches but out of the fact it is what you are comfortable with, and you may find yourself giving way to Nurgle's call. Where water cannot flow, it becomes stagnant, and it is this stagnancy that Nurgle thrives in like an algae. Nothing ever changes, nothing ever improves or gets better, it just settles into the same intensified quagmire of repetition, with each stage becoming more indistinguishable from the rest until all is a formless mush of unchanging, static nothingness. Oblivion. Death. Those resigned to such stagnation, those happy to let things decay because it is simply easier and more comfortable to accept rot and ruin than to make efforts to improve things and fight against entropy, they are the ones who can find themselves in Nurgle's abhorrent embrace. Those who are without hope, or those who are simply too content with things being as they should not be, be they pauper or politician- those are the ones that find themselves stranded in the garden of the Plaguefather.

 

The important thing to remember here is that neither of these two qualities are inherently bad. Stability is needed for comfort and sanity. Progress is needed for hope and motivation. But either extreme can find itself becoming self-serving, a feedback loop that degenerates into madness and ultimately evil. And without willpower and discipline holding back the need to take these basic needs to their logical endpoints, death and misery follows.

 

But hang on. There's FOUR Chaos Gods, not two. Aren't we forgetting something? Well, it just so happens there's four points on the compass too. And these are Authority vs Liberty. The appeal to the Other vs the appeal to the Self.

 

These are fairly self explanatory. Authoritarianism is the belief that the individual must be shepherded to the path of righteousness. Libertarianism is the belief that the individual should be free to pursue righteousness of their own will and determine that path for themselves.  Somewhere between the two lies an ideal sweet spot; people should be free to live and by happy, but they have a duty to help each other and steer each other away from danger. At either end of extremism, again, lies death. It's the difference between allowing your child to wander off a cliff (extreme liberty) and beating your child within an inch of their life for walking too close to a shallow incline on a gentle hill (extreme authority). Neither extreme is good.

 

And wouldn't you know it, Khorne and Slaanesh fit into those roles perfectly!

 

Khorne is authoritarianism made manifest. Blood must flow in his name. Skulls must be piled at his throne. But beyond that, they must be done so in the proper manner; a fight fought with honour, a decapitation performed with ceremony, and a tribute made with reverence. The follower of Khorne must remember that ultimately, his own skull is property of the Blood God. This desire to impose the will of another, to bring perceived justice, sanctity and order with great zeal, is the first step on the road to Khorne's tower if not taken carefully. Of course, law must be upheld. Of course, respect for those worthy must be paid. And of course, things must be kept as they should be, with a sense of duty. But if this duty is overtaken by a simple desire to impose that order onto others for its own sake, rather than the sake of mankind as determined by the God-Emperor, then so begins the path to damnation. The lawkeeper who is a bit too uncompromising in his enforcement of rules. The preacher who condemns even the slightest step from his idea of a good life. The ruler who harshly punishes the slightest dissent. All will find themselves ending up at the foot of the Brass Throne.

 

On the other end of the scale is Slaanesh. The need for liberty and freedom taken to its ultimate endpoint in godly form. To worship him is to worship yourself, to be arrogant and prideful, to consider nothing but your own gratification. Those who follow passion, and desire to express their passions for all to see, are potential prey to Slaanesh's honeyed words. In moderation, the artist and the creator who brings joy to others and themselves can improve the lives of all around them...assuming they do this with consideration for others, and for the greater good (not THAT one!). The Emperor knows, the Emperor is watching after all; those that do not humble themselves to this fact and declare "I do not care if He forbids this craft, I know better" are giving in to the hubris that so often leads to Slaanesh's clutches. One who becomes so preoccupied with their beauty that they give way to exhibitionism, the artist who is so convinced of their talent that they abandon all artistic reason and create works of obscenity, the warrior who believes they should fight for no cause but themselves and their own supremacy, these are all possible slaves to Slaanesh.

 

So in short, Khorne is a god of extreme authoritarianism, Slaanesh a god of extreme libertarianism, Nurgle a god of extreme stability (Right-wing thought), and Tzeentch a god of extreme progress (Left-wing thought). None of these concepts are inherently evil, but as they are embodied by the Ruinous Powers, they lead to destruction, horror and ultimately death. Each of these four powers could be envisioned as a perverse form of beauty to their worshippers- to a Khorne follower, the ideal woman is a blood-drenched virago who dominates all in her path. To Slaanesh's cultists, a debased creature made solely to gratify the senses. To those that worship Nurgle, a comforting mass of warm, rotting flesh that envelops all in its sickly decaying bulk. And to those enthralled to Tzeentch, an ever-changing, twisted being of light and colour and flame, without form and yet with a thousand.

 

It's also worth noting the other four points on the Eight-Pointed Chaos Star correspond to extremes of belief. Far-right authoritarianism, the desire to keep things as one perceives they should be by force, could lead one to the worship of Khorne or Nurgle. Far-left libertarianism, the desire to define how things should be as per one's own passions and to advance one's own world into the perfect image of these passions, could send someone into the grasp of Tzeentch or Slaanesh. Far-left authoritarianism? The need to see things ever improving, perpetually evolving to an unattainable perfection and to destroy all that would oppose that; Khorne and Tzeentch would be vying for this soul. Far-right libertarianism? The desire to fester in a pit of hedonism and pleasure, to the exclusion of all else. Slaanesh and Nurgle have equal claim over this lost one.

 

Thus we have the eight points of Chaos, and the evils they represent. But the arrows also point inwards, and in the centre of the star lies the rarest but most dangerous of them all; the true child of Chaos Undivided.

 

To court all four powers at once is to hold contradictory extremes in balance. The need to advance and the need to keep things the same. The need to self-actualize and the need for authority. A champion of Chaos Undivided desires everything to fall to ruin, to burn to ashes, and to be reforged anew in his own twisted image. To follow their own path of desire and wanton vice, and to impose their ideals onto others. In short, the endpoint of a successful Undivided servant of Chaos is to ascend to godhood. Thus all four powers squabble to lavish favours on him both out of a desire for the ultimate prize, but also out of fear that they would all be transcended in power by one who could embody these four contradictory, irreconcilable opposites at once in equal amounts. One who achieved this- to be at the extreme of all eight points of the star yet also at their centre- would be beyond good and evil, they would be incomprehensibly terrifying in power and would essentially become the most powerful entity in all of creation.

 

Abaddon follows this route; he has been offered daemonhood many times by each power, and has rejected it every time. He knows his goal. He does not wish to be a servant or even an equal to any god- he wishes to be master of all. He knows the powers covet him and fear him. He wishes to cast down all higher powers, and should he succeed, he would be the master of destiny itself. In short, Abaddon is a great Satan, and represents existential, purest evil.

 

And so it is that Chaos is simply the manifestation of extremes. Any of these concepts alone, or together, is safe in moderation. At its extreme, it becomes evil. All together, in total extreme, they are apocalyptic.

 

 

...I spent far too long on this...

[Rain]

Oh my, this thread will absolutely devolve into political mudslinging and a lock. That said, before it does, I’m not entirely convinced by your argument.

 

While I agree in re Tzeentch and Nurgle, which is pretty on the nose, Khorne and Slaanesh are less clear cut. Especially Khorne. Authoritarianism tends to be very top down, and structured. Everyone knows their place. While all Khorne worshippers are “under” Khorne himself and worship him in their own ways, there is no further organization (also, all God worshippers are under their God and worship them). Khorne followers are the most anarchic and least centrally organized and regimented in how they actually operate.
 

There is no real unifying creed or belief either, other than killing, but that’s more of an elemental drive (like, say, hunger) than a dogma, which tends to be motivate the members of an authoritarian society, and give reason for following the leader who is taken to embody that dogma. Khorne really doesn’t have a proper sociopolitical analogue, in my opinion, except for maybe one of the famously violent Germanic tribes of the Classical Roman period, but even then, they are closer to violent mentally ill people than a society.

 

Slaanesh is closer to an extreme libertarian society. The one thing I will say is that among many (certainly not all) libertarians the concept of liberty is different from freedom. Liberty requires the capacity for free will, and the ability to effective practice thereof. So, for example, a drug addict may have the freedom to take his drug, but he does not have liberty as he is compelled by addiction overwhelming his free will. Slaaneshis certainly lack liberty, but it’s a closer analogue than Khorne and authoritarianism, as Slaanesh does seem to he the search for freedom at all costs gone awry.

[apologist]

An excellent essay, @Evil Eye – clearly and concisely laid-out and argued; nice one. 

 

To draw the thread of your argument a little further, I'd also throw in the concept of Order as the flip side to the 'Chaos coin', as it's at the root of the metaphysics of the Warhammer universes. Now explicit in Age of Sigmar, prior to this Order (or Law, as it was known) was the implicit opposite to Chaos; a part of the Warhammer background that was only touched upon.

 

To the beings of the Warhammer universes, Chaos provides freedom, while Law provides structure. 

 

The key difference between GW's Chaos/Order distinction and the more familiar Good/Evil distinction is that both extremes are equally undesirable on an individual (or indeed societal) level. Chaos provides the freedom necessary for personal freedom: creatitivy, honour, love and so forth – but taken to extremes, utter freedom robs you of meaning; ultimately robbing you of the structure of physical or mental form; 'liberating' you from sanity. Conversely, Law provides the structures that allow societies (and other groupings) to function – but taken to its logical extreme, it ends in 'purity'; unending stasis and changelessness.

 

For reasons outlined in the post above, this overlaps heavily with @Evil Eye's conception of Nurgle as championing changelessness, and it's perhaps for this reason that the concept of Law as an opposing force to Chaos rather withered on the vine in gaming terms.

 

With that said, I think it's interesting to bear it in mind for further discussion as it allows for antithetical arguments to be made; as per @Rain's comments:

  

29 minutes ago, Rain said:

Especially Khorne. Authoritarianism tends to be very top down, and structured. Everyone knows their place. While all Khorne worshippers are “under” Khorne himself and worship him in their own ways, there is no further organization (also, all God worshippers are under their God and worship them). Khorne followers are the most anarchic and least centrally organized and regimented in how they actually operate.

This view shows the disorganised, 'purely Chaotic' side of Khorne; but flipped over onto its other side, we see examples like Khorne's Stormboyz, the Blood Pact and other formalised or rigidly authoritarian Khorne groupings. These are still Khorne worshippers, but 'on the path' as it were to the extremes.

 

As @Evil Eye notes, 

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

[...]the centre of the debate basically wanted the same thing but had different views on how to approach it. At the extreme of each end however were the... less sane ones.

 

In-game and lore, we're usually presented with the extremes as playable or notable, as they naturally lend themselves to being more identifiable – but that's not to say that the less 'purely Chaotic' groups don't exist – indeed, given the idea of an 'Order' flip-side to Chaos, we see that it's not a case of individuals simply choosing to follow Chaos, but that everyone is already on the spectrum of Law and Chaos. One's decisions and actions are reflected and amplified in the warp, drawing you inevitably to one or the other horrible extreme.

 

That's why 40k is dystopian – there is little chance to be a well-balanced individual, as you have the crushing authoritarian Law of the Imperium (Orwell's 'boot stamping on a human face, forever') eternally opposed to the appealing freedom of Chaos. Appealing, that is, until you have sufficient freedom that you (almost inevitably) fall towards the extremes of Chaos for fear of persecution from the Imperium (or other Orderly civilisations, like the Necrons or Eldar).

 

Taken as a whole, then; we see Chaos as fundamentally opposed ideologies; Law as the flip side of those, and the setting of the Imperium working against the possibility of compromise and centrism.

 

It's a good theory, I think, because it also allows for those outside of the fundamental conflict of the human (or Eldar/Necron) soul to be considered. I don't think it's coincidence that the orks as a whole are uniquely resistant to Chaos in the 40k universe. You do get Chaos orks in the lore, but they're vanishingly rare – and that's because they don't interact with Law or Chaos as humans (and others) do.

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by apologist

[Evil Eye]

52 minutes ago, apologist said:

[Snip]

An excellent addition. And it is certainly interesting that Law/Order exist in 40K, but instead of separate "Law Gods" interacting with the setting, it's the entire Imperium that is itself the embodiment of this concept, crowned by the godhead of the Emperor; a god who attempted to destroy the concept of gods in an effort to erase Chaos completely (and also lead humanity onto the next stage of evolution).

 

...Hmmm. Evolving humanity into a psychic race that can resist and defeat the very concept of Chaos. Such a thing would almost necessitate a complete loss of individuality, a gestalt race taking on an Evangelion styled instrumentality, in which every mind is but one mote of a galaxy-wide nebula. Countless minds acting as one colossal "megasoul", immune to any temptation or Chaotic influence, and...oh no.

 

That already exists. Maybe the truest embodiment of Law in the galaxy is not the Emperor and his Imperium...but the Tyranids. You have a trillion times a trillion times a trillion minds, autonomous but bereft of any soul, together under the command of/embodying the will of a gestalt consciousness of such enormity that it (according to one Farseer who IIRC briefly witnessed it and went mad) dwarfs the Gods. And yet instead of the sea of churning, conflicting emotions and psyche that the Gods create in the Warp, it is preceded by a colossal bow wave of absolutely nothing. A soul the size of a mountain that is somehow soulless. An overwhelming, crushing bulk of void. And not even an aimless one; an incredibly intelligent, perpetually self-improving entity that seeks one singular goal; the consumption and erasure of all life. It cannot be tempted, taunted, reasoned with, demoralized. It is fundamentally immune to the will of the Dark Gods because its only, singular, solitary desire is the eradication of everything before it. And in its wake? Nothing. Sterile, lifeless emptiness. Not a spark of life or memory. Complete and total obliteration of any form of will. There is nothing more orderly and structured than a silent, black void.

 

The Hive Mind is the God of Order.

 

Re: Khorne, in addition to the aforementioned more organized, martially-minded Khorne cults out there, Khorne is a god of battle and war, which by definition have some form of authority being imposed from one side onto another. One side is vanquished, the other victorious, and they are the winners- they have imposed their authority onto the foe by destroying them. However, there is another god who follows a similar theme but is subtly different, and falls ironically quite close to Slaanesh in terms of theme; the now-splintered Khaela Mensha Khaine.

 

Whereas Khorne is a god of battle, Khaine is a god of murder. Khorne's axe falls to assert his dominance. Khaine's sword is swung to bring low those that have drawn his ire. Khorne has some (albeit twisted) concept of honour which Khaine utterly lacks. Khorne's wrath is driven by perceived slights against his dominance and "justice". Khaine's rage is born purely of spite. Khaine is (or at least, was) far more of a multi-faceted entity than Khorne, hence the many "aspects" upon which the Aspect Warriors are based. He was capable of great joy, and by contrast, of utterly bottomless fury. Khorne's anger, whilst terrifying, is still governed by his "code" so to speak, and he is fairly predictable in this manner. If you are a worshipper of Khorne, he'll be pleased if you offer him the skulls of great foes via an axe blow. But offering him the skulls of those slain dishonorably (granted this was more of a thing in older fluff)- and ESPECIALLY if you did so with magic? He's not going to be happy. You know where you stand with Khorne. With (pre-shattering) Khaine? He is far more mercurial. You can pay him tribute by non-martial means. And if you're offering him a slain foe he doesn't care how you killed it, in fact he'd be rather smug if you knifed it in the back as it slept. But then again, he might take issue with something and subject you to a truly gruesome death, unnecessarily drawn out and excruciatingly painful.

 

This extends to his followers. Eldar feel emotion thousands of times more keenly than any human ever could. Khârn the betrayer feels nothing but the desire to pay tribute to Khorne through a tithe of felled warriors. He's consumed with battle-lust at all times for certain, but it's a constant, and it is still limited by a human psyche, no matter how twisted. Again, you can kind of understand what you're dealing with if you face him. Now, an Eldar Aspect Warrior? They are capable of being incredibly serene, peaceful and gentle, of feeling love and passion... but they are also capable of feeling rage and hate on such a level that Khârn would probably feel a little intimidated. The contrast between the potential for deepest love and compassion and utter, remorseless loathing and shocking violence is what differentiates a Khorne Berzerker from an angry Eldar. The Berzerker is always angry, the Eldar is sometimes much angrier. And that's kind of it; Khaine (what's left of him) is ironically a bit more "chaotic" than Khorne. If Khaine were somehow restored to his former self, the entire galaxy would be in for a change of trousers, because the power of an Eldar god of old combined with literal vindictive spite and resentment made manifest in a way humans, and even "human" gods cannot comprehend? Holy feth. Fortunately the only way this could possibly happen is an Ynnead style scenario; except instead of every Eldar dying and merging in the Infinity Circuit, it would be every Eldar simultaneously becoming INCANDESCENT WITH RAGE. So not very likely, unless they all suddenly remember there's only one A and no I in Eldar.

 

That's a very long-winded way of saying that Khorne likes war for its own sake, but Khaine likes war for the opportunities for horrible acts of cruelty and bloodshed, and they're definitely not the same. Khorne you could probably go down the pub and enjoy a pint with, maybe chatting about the merits of brass on tanks and whether axes or flails are more badass. Khaine would probably spike your drink and you'd wake up missing your skin.

 

...Maybe I should have called this thread "The meanings of 40K deities and how they influence metaphysics" instead!

[Rain]

2 hours ago, apologist said:

The key difference between GW's Chaos/Order distinction and the more familiar Good/Evil distinction is that both extremes are equally undesirable on an individual (or indeed societal) level. Chaos provides the freedom necessary for personal freedom: creatitivy, honour, love and so forth – but taken to extremes, utter freedom robs you of meaning; ultimately robbing you of the structure of physical or mental form; 'liberating' you from sanity. Conversely, Law provides the structures that allow societies (and other groupings) to function – but taken to its logical extreme, it ends in 'purity'; unending stasis and changelessness.

 

This could be seen as backwards. Emotions create the Chaos Gods, so, it's not so much that, say, Slaanesh creates lust (or love) but that that these emotions create Slaanesh, who is the personification of these emotions taken to a pathological and destructive extreme.  To use a metaphor, cell division is necessary for life, but uncontrolled cell division is cancer. Emotions are a natural state of the human condition, with the Chaos Gods being the pathological emotional "tumor" that takes on an existence of its own, and destroys its source (that is, the cultists/followers whose emotions create the Chaos Gods), just as an actual tumor kills its host by draining the body of resources.

 

Like you say, the extreme "freedom" of Chaos is paradoxical in that it destroys liberty, which requires free will. Chaos is a trade of an external master imposed by an authoritarian hierarchy (such as the Imperium) for the internal master of one's own unfettered passions blotting out all ability to reason or choose.

 

2 hours ago, apologist said:

  

This view shows the disorganised, 'purely Chaotic' side of Khorne; but flipped over onto its other side, we see examples like Khorne's Stormboyz, the Blood Pact and other formalised or rigidly authoritarian Khorne groupings. These are still Khorne worshippers, but 'on the path' as it were to the extremes.

 

I'm pretty sure Stormboyz being Khornate was a 2nd edition thing, back when there were also Khornate Genestealer cults, and a lot of other lore that has since been retconned. Blood Pact are a better example, but they exist solely in the Sabbat World "Abnettverse" so they can be considered an exception. That said, the recent World Eaters codex does note that some warbands like the Bloodstalkers and Gladiator Cadre 331 are much more tactical and organized than other WE, so it stands to reason that they would be relatively regimented and authoritarian, but I'm not sure if they would really be more authoritarian than say, Word Bearers. Or even Black Templars. More to the point, Khorne himself does not impose hierarchies, he is a very ends justify the means kind of guy, and the ends are violence, by whatever means it may be inflicted.

 

If anything, the Imperium is the personification of authoritarianism, not Khorne. The Imperium has a supreme leader whose will and beneficence are unquestioned, the Imperium has a rigid and complex hierarchy where every individual knows their role in the greater machine, and the Imperium has a set of dogmas that are to be believed without question, and which synergistically (and circularly) justify the Emperor's supremacy. Which is to say, that the Emperor rules because he embodies the dogmas, and the dogmas are true because they are espoused by the Emperor. Or at least, they are presented as being espoused by the Emperor by the bureaucracy, the Emperor is a vegetable.

 

Edit: @Evil Eye

 

I think you are referring to WFB lore here. Khorne in 40k is the god of violence however it may be achieved, he is not the god of orderly combat. 

 

Quote

Codex: World Eaters pg. 10:

He is a god of anger, violence, and war, the manifestation of the murderous, irrational aspect of sentient beings...His followers justify their lives and seek to prove themselves to him through honour, bravery, and martial pride - though the most fanatical know that Khorne cares for little besides total slaughter.

 

So, while yes, some followers justify their actions as being honorable or brave, and may organize themselves in an orderly manner, Khorne himself does not particularly care which way you skin a cat, as long as it's violent. So, the authoritarianism of Khornate followers, such as it exists, comes from personal justifications of the followers, and not from Khorne. The most devoted followers of Khorne are the "Sages of Slaughter" who are solitary wanderers that live to kill, and a solitary existence is probably the farthest from authoritarianism that one can get as it eliminates all structures of authority and hierarchy.

 

Further edit: The Tyranids can't really be likened to any human sociopolitical system or ideology in my opinion. They are closer to an ant colony, or even the cells of a single body, than they are to any human society. Authoritarianism is not a gestalt hive mind, it is a system of organizing human individuals, all with free will, but toward a common purpose through hierarches, due to rigidly enforced beliefs. Nids don't have beliefs. They don't have ideology.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Rain

[Scribe]

Gods of the Warp, I hope this thread lives.

 

At a scan, I dont see the mention of the psychological positions of the gods, only political comparison. Khorne/Slaanesh being Thanatos/Eros, for example.

[Marshal Rohr]

Chaos doesn't have ideology. Its just corruption and obliteration. The Gods are all one, and entirely distinct at the same time. Khorne doesn't adopt bloodletting as a Policy Position and Agenda. That in and of itself is impossible for Chaos. 

[Arkangilos]

7 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Nurgle a god of extreme stability, and Tzeentch a god of extreme progress.

I disagree with these. 

 

Nurgle’s “position” isn’t stability, nor is unchangeableness. It is the the reality that change is hopeless, but even in the despair new life can be found. 
 

New life through death, death despite hope, the inevitable decay. There is still change, because it moves from one state (life) to another (death), and from that death to a new, different life (rebirth).

 

Tzeentch also isn’t necessarily about change per se, but the manipulation of that change. It is the forbidden hope that we can affect that change. Nurgle is there is change but you can’t influence it, Tzeentch is there is change and you can influence it. 

 

So Nurgle’s thought is acceptance, Tzeentch’s thought is rebellion. 
 

Notice that followers Nurgle finds joy in that change, and they tend to be “happier” despite despairing. They also tend to not hold grudges (at least that’s part of one of the characters in Lords of Silence). He doesn’t hate the Emperor or the Imperium. He just sees them as holding onto hope that they can change how the change affects them.

 

So I would say for the dichotomy that it is less about stability and more about agency.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Arkangilos

[gideon stargreave]

There’s a whole essay brewing in my head about how we as humans are trying to make a compass from chaos, but it’s late and I’m tired. If this thread still exists tomorrow I’ll write something up